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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Poll: Should classes be armor/weapon limited?

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110 posts found
  Ramanadjinn

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1366

7/13/13 4:16:19 AM#21
Originally posted by craftseeker

 

Well I played last with the 1979 AD&D ruleset and no spellswords, no battle magi and paladins were a hybrid warrior/cleric and therefore not a magic user.\

OH BTW, we were excited to get our hands on the "brand new rule set"

 

That did not last long though, I played a dual sword wielding mage for a while when 2nd edition came out.

In 2nd edition ADnD anyone could pick up and use any item. 

I guess I should add he went with leather armor.

  craftseeker

Elite Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 832

7/13/13 4:19:02 AM#22
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Dihoru

So no paladins? no spellswords? no battle magi ?

Well I played last with the 1979 AD&D ruleset and no spellswords, no battle magi and paladins were a hybrid warrior/cleric and therefore not a magic user.\

OH BTW, we were excited to get our hands on the "brand new rule set"

Clerics are divine magic users....

Not in the the "brand new rule set" in 1979 they wernt, nor where they before that.  At that time magic users were magic users and clerics and paladins had non magical god given abilities. Magic Users read books to memorise their spells clerics prayed for divine guidance.

Now I admit "divine magic user" is a more logical construction but no one ever accused Gary Gygax of an overabundance of logical thought.

  SavageHorizon

Elite Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 2049

7/13/13 4:22:15 AM#23
Originally posted by Aelious

Unless a gotcha moment is coming at SoE Live there will indeed be classes per the updated lineup

https://www.soe.com/soelive/lineup.vm

 

My question is should classes be locked in to what weapons and armor they can use?

 

Personally I like the idea of making my character my own.  I can live with being tied to a specific class (until I switch via multi-classing, ahem) but I would like some flexibility.  Bards did get to wear plate in EQ after all.  If I want to play a "Battle Mage" should I be able to roll a Wizard, wear plate and wield a 2h?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Think TESO is that way----->

But seriously, i like the vanguard way of doing things. In Vanguard you have many types of weapons, clerics wear plate and can use all of the below weapons.

  • 2H Blunt
  • 1H Blunt
  • Hand to Hand

 

  • Thrown Hammers
  • Hammer
  • Mace
  • Great Spear
  • Great Maul
  • Club
 

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  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6649

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/13/13 4:30:11 AM#24
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by azzamasin
Nope I am 100% pro skill based and even if there are classes then I am 100% pro whatever weapon or armor you wish to wear.  Now I know this is an EQN sub forum but freedom of choice was the one main issue that still has me holding out hope for TESO.  It's not a deal breaker by any stretch of the imagination but I do prefer freedom of choice and I really do not see how SOE can make a game and call it sandbox while having scripted and rigid class restrictions, especially more considering Georgeson's mmoprg.com future of MMO panel at Pax East.

this a million times this.

Remember the Xbox one trying to make the future of gaming as limited as possible with all the crap they wanted to do? This applies perfectly to mmos. The future of mmos is freedom of choice. Keeping it stuck to the old ways will never help the genre evolve.

Sort of misses the point really, while I might agree with that 100% anything free-form stuff if you were building your own class that, as the OP pointed out, is not the case with EQ NEXT.  We know there are fixed classes, probably with multi-class options but fixed none the less.

In the presence of fixed classes; mage, bard, paladin etc.  I think they should have meaningful starting definitions, for me part of that definition is "Mages wear cloth armor only".

Those "meaningful" definitions are arbitrary because even in the grand daddy PnP RPG (D&D) prior to what most call it's casualization  ( 3.5 and below) you had mages which wore plate mail, brandished swords and could likely shoot lighting up your ass while impaling you on their swords. If it is for the same of balance I understand but don't come out with bullshit like "meaningful" definitions because we all know true RPGs let you mix and match things to suit your playstyle while balancing the benefits with the negatives ( if memory serves plate mail would affect the power of spells for mages in D&D).

Yes they are arbitrary, based on the content of fantasy novels but still arbitrary.  As to D&D well I probably stopped playing it before you started playing it but I do not remember magic users being allowed to wear anything but cloth and still cast spells.

The "mages can only wear cloths amor" mentality has to go away. It is an old idea that today becomes a limitation and an annoyance. Im not asking for full classless stuff in a game that clearly has classes. But being flexible within each class is important. I love mages, my favorite class in games. Of course you can have a variety but you will only get better at what you use. A mage that can wear chains or leather stuff would sacrifice some magic power maybe but have more defence and more change to melee when the enemies get up close. The cloth limitations for mages only reinforce kiting mechanics. Give heavy armor and a sword to a mage and he can enchant the sword and beat the crap of the monster up close while enduren some more beating with heavier armor (battle mage). My thoughts.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6649

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/13/13 4:38:38 AM#25
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Aelious

 

 

But seriously, i like the vanguard way of doing things. In Vanguard you have many types of weapons, clerics wear plate and can use all of the below weapons.

  • 2H Blunt
  • 1H Blunt
  • Hand to Hand

 

  • Thrown Hammers
  • Hammer
  • Mace
  • Great Spear
  • Great Maul
  • Club
 

this could apply to all the classes (and even more weapons), but for some reason some classes are left in the cold in almost every game. Each class would use their weapon differently based on their class skills. That way theres no way to say "oh every class is the same" because they all play their weapons differently. Warrior use the hammer raw and brutal, while mages enchant the hammer for some extra burst that they wouldnt have in melee normally in case the mob gets close range, etc. The depiction of mages as girly scholars that cant lift a finger is absurd when they clearly have destructive power they can very much channel to any weapon. Gimmie powahs!!!!

 

A great example of this is the Mesmer in GW2 vs the warrior vs guardian vs ranger.

the latter three are melee and mesmer is caster. Mesmer uses great swords and channell its illusion based magic through it. Plain and simple.

  craftseeker

Elite Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 832

7/13/13 4:41:10 AM#26
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by craftseeker

Yes they are arbitrary, based on the content of fantasy novels but still arbitrary.  As to D&D well I probably stopped playing it before you started playing it but I do not remember magic users being allowed to wear anything but cloth and still cast spells.

The "mages can only wear cloths amor" mentality has to go away. It is an old idea that today becomes a limitation and an annoyance. Im not asking for full classless stuff in a game that clearly has classes. But being flexible within each class is important. I love mages, my favorite class in games. Of course you can have a variety but you will only get better at what you use. A mage that can wear chains or leather stuff would sacrifice some magic power maybe but have more defence and more change to melee when the enemies get up close. The cloth limitations for mages only reinforce kiting mechanics. Give heavy armor and a sword to a mage and he can enchant the sword and beat the crap of the monster up close while enduren some more beating with heavier armor (battle mage). My thoughts.

In EQ2 mages had self-buffs that would augment their cloth armor to the same level as leather and indeed with some changes to Alternate Advancement lines from the normal min-max choices could become as survivable as a scout class in chain.  Allowing them to wear chain on top of that would have been OP.

Flexible yes, allowing OP combinations no.  Sacrificing magic power by wearing better armor: well maybe, but I can see that becoming OP overtime as well.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2849

World > Quest Progression

 
OP  7/13/13 4:43:00 AM#27
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Aelious

Unless a gotcha moment is coming at SoE Live there will indeed be classes per the updated lineup

https://www.soe.com/soelive/lineup.vm

 

My question is should classes be locked in to what weapons and armor they can use?

 

Personally I like the idea of making my character my own.  I can live with being tied to a specific class (until I switch via multi-classing, ahem) but I would like some flexibility.  Bards did get to wear plate in EQ after all.  If I want to play a "Battle Mage" should I be able to roll a Wizard, wear plate and wield a 2h?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Think TESO is that way----->

But seriously, i like the vanguard way of doing things. In Vanguard you have many types of weapons, clerics wear plate and can use all of the below weapons.

  • 2H Blunt
  • 1H Blunt
  • Hand to Hand

 

  • Thrown Hammers
  • Hammer
  • Mace
  • Great Spear
  • Great Maul
  • Club
 

 

Which would make sense if I wanted to play TESO, in which case I would be posting ---->

 

Vanguard does indeed offer a wide variety of weapons per class due to the variety of weapons in the game total but it's still limiting.

 

I see that some people like the standard archetype pairings, which is fine.  I would like to add that I don't think a plate wearing Wizard would cast as powerfully as one in robes, that aspect should balance out with the plate offering more protection.  I think if you are allowed to make those type of choices then you could really make your character how you wish them to be.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2849

World > Quest Progression

 
OP  7/13/13 4:45:37 AM#28

Plus, it would be nice if I could finally play a DW Paladin...

 

Is that so much to ask!

 

I don't think it is

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6649

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/13/13 4:47:28 AM#29
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by craftseeker
 

In EQ2 mages had self-buffs that would augment their cloth armor to the same level as leather and indeed with some changes to Alternate Advancement lines from the normal min-max choices could become as survivable as a scout class in chain.  Allowing them to wear chain on top of that would have been OP.

Flexible yes, allowing OP combinations no.  Sacrificing magic power by wearing better armor: well maybe, but I can see that becoming OP overtime as well.

i know, but the "armor buffs" are in every single mmo. Is SOE trying to make just another generic mmo? i hope not.

As for the second comment, its not OP combinations. There you can use the old idea of cloths make mages stronger, give them a chainmail and they can still cast magic but not as strong instead giving them capabilities to enchant the weapon since the raw magic wouldnt be as strong.

There are lots of ideas and ways to make this work. And also to screwe it up if not done right. But i hope there is enough class flexibility to make each class not feel limited and let me make the type of mage i want, or the type of warrior i want, etc.

 

  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

7/13/13 4:47:40 AM#30

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Equipment-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying-Accessory/dp/078692649X/ref=pd_rhf_ee_s_cp_9_9BDR?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Z84XWK91HHMZ46G7JBD enjoy reading up then (take note which weapons, if any, are class locked).

 

 

Well, when i played D&D and AD&D probably there was more restrictions but i think that you couldnt play a wizard that use plate armor even now, howether i m not interested in D&D on EQ forum.

If you want to erase all restrictions in EQN classes, well i want to play a warrior that can go stealth as a rogue, blink as wizard, use powerful ranged spells, heal as a cleric and so on...


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 3020

7/13/13 4:49:18 AM#31

Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.

Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.

  User Deleted
7/13/13 4:50:53 AM#32
Originally posted by Gholos

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Equipment-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying-Accessory/dp/078692649X/ref=pd_rhf_ee_s_cp_9_9BDR?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Z84XWK91HHMZ46G7JBD enjoy reading up then (take note which weapons, if any, are class locked).

 

 

Well, when i played D&D and AD&D probably there was more restrictions but i think that you couldnt play a wizard that use plate armor even now, howether i m not interested in D&D on EQ forum.

If you want to erase all restrictions in EQN classes, well i want to play a warrior that can go stealth as a rogue, blink as wizard, use powerful ranged spells, heal as a cleric and so on...

Then you'd A) suffer from armor penalties (so in a straight up magic duel vs a pure mage your ass would quite literally fall off), your healing would be maybe 1/2 at best as a cleric, your stealth wouldn't be high level enough to fool an actual rogues perception skills, etc,etc. Need I say more or do you really wanna look more like you have no clue what you're talking about?

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6649

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/13/13 4:54:20 AM#33
Originally posted by Waterlily

Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.

you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim

Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.

You didnt play Guardian in GW2.

 

  ghorgos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 180

7/13/13 5:06:07 AM#34

Free choice of weapon and armor is a nice thing but with the right consequences. The armor needs to be more than just the model+texture and should come with things like requirements/side-effects/penalties(like the D&D armors). Everyone can wear plate armor but the mobility is much less than lighter armor and without enough strength the player could hardly do anything. Similar for weapons. While you may use any weapon you won't be good with them without training and certain weapons(like massive 2 handed Hammers) require additional stats.

Without thoose consequences i prefer limited choices.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
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7/13/13 5:07:38 AM#35
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Waterlily

Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.

you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim

Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.

You didnt play Guardian in GW2.

 

So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.

  User Deleted
7/13/13 5:12:54 AM#36
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Waterlily

Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.

you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim

Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.

You didnt play Guardian in GW2.

 

So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.

Some roleplay their own characters which transcends the game universe (IE they have a specific personality which they then adapt to the game they're playing, having a non-fixed weapon and class system allows for these people to roleplay their characters better).

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6649

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/13/13 5:14:34 AM#37
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Waterlily

Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.

you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim

Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.

You didnt play Guardian in GW2.

 

So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.

Its fine thats your choice, but other people dont need to suffer those limitations. THis dont affect immersion nor roleplaying because you are the one controlling your character, you use the equipment you desire for your roleplay and your own immersion. The only way to do both is giving more freedom of choice and each player use that freedom the way they want. ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.

  Ramanadjinn

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1366

7/13/13 5:20:33 AM#38
Originally posted by rojo6934
 ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.

 

It only fails to make sense under certain definitions of the word "class."

There is no rule saying a class must be defined by it's equipment selection.

 

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6649

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/13/13 5:22:49 AM#39
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by rojo6934
 ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.

 

It only fails to make sense under certain definitions of the word "class."

There is no rule saying a class must be defined by it's equipment selection.

 

i know, but apparently there is an invisible rule that companies tend to follow, making every single mmo class defined by its equipment. An old idea that needs to fade away.

  User Deleted
7/13/13 5:32:04 AM#40
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by rojo6934
 ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.

 

It only fails to make sense under certain definitions of the word "class."

There is no rule saying a class must be defined by it's equipment selection.

 

i know, but apparently there is an invisible rule that companies tend to follow, making every single mmo class defined by its equipment. An old idea that needs to fade away.

Players should be given tools and a limit and let loose to define their own classes and/or roles.

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