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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » The SOE Live panels were updated - Panels include: classes, lore, the world, Q & A

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92 posts found
  Iadien

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/04
Posts: 646

 
OP  7/11/13 10:21:52 AM#61
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by evilastro

 

In EQ you kill mobs in Highpass Hold, then when you outlevel it you move to Highkeep, then Jaggedpine Forest and so on.

Actually, you could chose where you went. You didn't go from one zone to the next, you often travelled to very different zones.

Not one person in EQ has ever leveled in the same manner.

And again, by this definition, EVE and Darkfall are themeparks.

Correct, Darkfall is a themepark. It's just less of a themepark than some others...

  Roguewiz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 502

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

7/11/13 10:23:08 AM#62
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Iadien
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Iadien
 there is a linear progression

Are you saying EVE doesn't have linear progression? Because everything about EVE progression is linear.

I have never played eve, I have no idea. lol

Well, name me an MMO without linear progression then.

Entropia Universe

It has linear skill progression locked behind level progression.

Even EQ didn't do this, many of the skills weren't locked behind level progress.

Try again.

You are confusing progression with skill systems.

In EQ you kill mobs in Highpass Hold, then when you outlevel it you move to Highkeep, then Jaggedpine Forest and so on. Its linear. Then when you get to endgame you do one raid, then when you gear up on that, you move to the next one. Having a big world does not make it a sandbox in any way shape or form.

Sandbox literally means player made content in that the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.

This comment isn't completely accurate.  You CAN move to Highkeep after you outlevel Highpass Hold, but you aren't required to.  You have the option to move to any zone within your level range and level up there.  That was one of the nice things about EQ:  You weren't really on the ride from point A to point B like the "new" Themepark games do.  EQ, in my opinion, is Themepark-lite.

Sandbox has generally two meanings.  The first is the one you listed.  The second is basically where the player isn't restricted to a set path.  They can select what they want to do, when they want to do it (assuming it is within their range).  In that regard, EQ is a Sandbox because you can choose to skip around to zones that fit your need.  You don't have to stay in Commonlands, you can choose to go to Qeynos Hills or The Karanas.

Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Everquest, Hearthstone, League of Legends
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Archeage

The secret to making a great game: Don't cater to the masses!

  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

7/11/13 10:57:35 AM#63

Regarding "class discussion"

I wouldn't be quick to write it down that it's definitely going to be traditional classes.

It certainly might be, but part of the discussion could be them explaining their take on the class system which could involve switching/combining skills etc.

 

 

  dstillrules

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/11
Posts: 4

7/11/13 11:19:39 AM#64
I really do not understand the argument of the definition of sandbox and theme park. I live in Orlando Florida "Theme park capital of the world" And when I go to Disney World I am not told that I have to ride the rides in a particular order and I know that I have the option of eating at one of the many restaurants or going to any of the many shows that they have. But guess what IT IS STILL A THEME PARK!  And it is the reason we use the term theme park about games. Just because I don't have to go to a certain zone for a certain level or have to do a certain dungeon at a certain level does not mean that I have had any input on the game world at all. Disney World gives me the freedom to take joy in everything that they have built and there are few restrictions on when I have to do something. However I am not allowed to build my own ride, my own restaurant, or my own show because it is a theme park not my own sandbox to play in. I know Everquest did not hold your hand like WoW and there was a sense of reward and danger with many things in the game. But you could not create anything in that world other than relationships with other players. It was a great game and I hope that EQ Next is similar in many ways but please dont completely use a word the wrong way for sake of an argument
  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

7/11/13 11:19:41 AM#65

EQN could be a themepark or a sandbox, no one knows yet. That being said the original Everquest is both a themepark and a sandbox. The problem with those two terms is that they are too losely defined. On one side you have a themepark which people assume just means "linear gameplay". So then you ask yourself, how could EQ possibley be linear, I mean I can go to hundreds of zones around the same level range without being hand held by quest hubs etc. You can use that argument but in the end you can still argue that because your on a level system, there are only so many zones that will allow you to level that have mobs in those ranges. On the other hand you can argue because there are so many zones its more like a sandbox because I have more of a choice and im not funneled in only 1 or 2 zones max.

The point is, the terms Sandbox and Themepark are poor terms to define a game, because everyones opinion of those terms mean different things. I personally don't think there is one true sanbox game in the market. The term Sanbox in my terms means, complete open world without any restrictions, skill progression etc. Once you stick any system like that into a game, it imeediately becomes about progression which can be argued as Themepark because Developers want you to do things in a certain way. Every game on the market right now is a themepark, I am willing to bet that most of you will probably disagree with me, however I know for a fact that every game has progression to some extent. Even the games that most of you play that elude you to open world freedom. I want to stress that "open world" does not mean sandbox. Open world just means you can run around in a larger "zone or room" within the game, it does not mean that you are in a sandbox and can do whatever you want. I had to say this because many individuals get those two terms confused. I say this because every game runs based on a set of rules, but for a sandbox to truely make sense you would need to have a world that has no restrictions. Lets face it though, developers cannot afford to make a game like this because it would be hard for them to project possible income scenarios.

 

I think one of the reasons Everquest feels like a sandbox is because your skills for everything you did improved over time as you used them. For example when you tried casting a spell or attacking a target you needed to have your skill high enough or you came up short. For example, lets say you got a new spell called Blood Boil which was a conjuration spell. Well in most games you could just cast it, and it would work everytime. However because you decided to focus on one specific spell type, like Life draining skills which were based off alteration you now fizzle everytime you cast the new spell. While this  may not sound like a huge issue, it had major impacts depending on the spell line you were using ... Feign Death anyone? The point is, this system made Everquest feel sandboxy because there were elements that could still impact you in certain ways that made your character feel more important or alive. I think Everquest did a very good job implementing a multitude of different mechanics that made the game world feel alive and therefore more sandboxy then the quest hub driven games of today.

  User Deleted
7/11/13 12:44:54 PM#66
Originally posted by Wakygreek

EQN could be a themepark or a sandbox, no one knows yet.

Yes actually.  Yes we do know.  It's a Sandbox.  That's been confirmed multiple times.

  User Deleted
7/11/13 12:48:06 PM#67
Originally posted by dstillrules
I really do not understand the argument of the definition of sandbox and theme park.

This is only happening from people 'wishing' that EQN will be a themepark honestly.  So for some reason they're arguing what a Sandbox is to delude themselves I guess.  Regardless, it's not going to change whatever reality is come August 2nd.

Either SOE is lying and it is a Themepark with some Sandbox elements in it or Smed was telling the truth to all the gaming sites for the last year. 

/shrug

 

  Gallus85

Elite Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1111

7/11/13 12:51:42 PM#68
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by muffins89
i already don't like that there's a "story".   let us make our own for once. 

A game without a story isn't a game, you end up with something like Minecraft.

You need a minimum of lore to have any meanginful adventure.

 

Incorrect.  A game is anything that has rules, objectives and a goal.  Baseball has no story, but it's a game.

SimCity isn't specifically a game.  It has no defined goal.  It's more of a toy (like a ball or a bat).  You can make up your own goals and in turn make your own game.  But SimCity in itself is not a game.  It's a toy/tool (for creating your own games)

You can have a game without a story.

You can have a story without a game.

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  keenber

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 437

7/11/13 1:11:33 PM#69
EQN hasnt been confirmed as a pure sandbox but a sandbox according to smed.
  User Deleted
7/11/13 1:15:14 PM#70
Originally posted by keenber
EQN hasnt been confirmed as a pure sandbox but a sandbox according to smed.

ahem....

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/342745058103160832/photo/1

  Gallus85

Elite Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1111

7/11/13 1:45:01 PM#71
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by keenber
EQN hasnt been confirmed as a pure sandbox but a sandbox according to smed.

ahem....

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/342745058103160832/photo/1

lol.  Nice.

But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation.  Could mean just non-instanced open world.  Could mean lots of player run content.  Could mean a lot of things.

It could easily have a mixture of things you see in themeparks and things you see in sandbox games.

Hell, one guy on here championing for sandbox MMORPGs when asked what a sandbox is he described Vanguard's FFA PVP server to the letter lol.

Most people agree that a "Pure sandbox" is a game with near unlimited freedom and no real goals.  Minecraft, Garry's mode, Sim City.... things like that.

We can be sure that EQN is not going to be an EQ skinned Garry's mod.  Expect some theme park traits to make it into the game.

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  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

7/11/13 2:05:10 PM#72
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by keenber
EQN hasnt been confirmed as a pure sandbox but a sandbox according to smed.

ahem....

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/342745058103160832/photo/1

Maybe he just really hates roller coasters.

 

Next week he'll link to the bumper cars with a big thumbs up.

  User Deleted
7/11/13 2:14:51 PM#73
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by keenber
EQN hasnt been confirmed as a pure sandbox but a sandbox according to smed.

ahem....

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/342745058103160832/photo/1

lol.  Nice.

But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation. 

Yep.  It sure is left up to interpretation.

But Sandbox = UGC.  Themepark is content that is fed to you and you 'ride' it for amusement.  The whole design philosophy behind themepark vs. sandbox is different.  These are things that have been known among the community for years.  The only reason why it's in question now is because some people refuse to accept the truth.  Therefore the very essence of the definition is now in question.

 

  Gallus85

Elite Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1111

7/11/13 3:35:19 PM#74
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by keenber
EQN hasnt been confirmed as a pure sandbox but a sandbox according to smed.

ahem....

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/342745058103160832/photo/1

lol.  Nice.

But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation. 

Yep.  It sure is left up to interpretation.

But Sandbox = UGC.  Themepark is content that is fed to you and you 'ride' it for amusement.  The whole design philosophy behind themepark vs. sandbox is different.  These are things that have been known among the community for years.  The only reason why it's in question now is because some people refuse to accept the truth.  Therefore the very essence of the definition is now in question.

 

Yup, but some people wrongly equate sandbox to features and mechanics that don't have to be in a sandbox, or themepark MMO.

Some people think Sandbox means no quests, just mobs standing around in a field waiting to be grinded.  That's not true.

Some people think that Sandbox = FFA PVP (Some have gone so far as to say the you can not* have a Sandbox game without FFA PVP).  That's not true.

Some people think that Sandbox means Zero instancing (That's not true).

Some people said that class systems are Themepark, and you can only have a sandbox if there's a free-choice point leveling system (again, not true)

Some people think that Sandbox means there won't be any "end game raid mobs".   Again, not true at all.

The point is, the term sandbox is a vague word that conveys a lot of ideas, but all of those ideas don't have to be true in a game for a game to be a sandbox.

Some people here are expecting EQN to be Minecraft, with better graphics and FFA PVP, nothing more, nothing less.

I hope the game offers what everyone wants, but I think some people heard the word sandbox, made up a fantasy world in their head and are expecting EQN to match up to that fantasy, when the reality is that it's probably only going to be partially what they're expecting, or more than what they're expecting.

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  Karble

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 671

I play therefor I am

7/11/13 3:48:48 PM#75

I hope EQ Next is

a sandbox first.

I want to be able to build a house, make or buy furnishings for it. I want my avatar to possibly be robbed, or killed or steal from others and kill them. I want to be able to make and use siege engines or use spells that can effect the lands around me like burning a tree or blowing the side out of a castle. Maybe taming creatures. Participating at different levels in the community I my house was placed and beyond is important as well.

Also maybe a max cap on Hit Points/ Mana/ Strength/stamina/dexterity/wisdom/intelligence/agility set at 100 from start of game. The only way this is effected is by gear stats or spells. This way any leveling put into the game could just be progression of various class skills,spells,resists,crafting.

This sort of system would make everything in the game much easier to balance since spell power doesn't need to go up and up until you have 50 versions of the same spell, only slightly more powerful versions. You maybe have 1 heal spell but you can level that spell power from 25 health healed all the way up to 100 health healed and then thru gear and aa's you might get crit heals of 220.   This 220hp heal seems very small compared to most theme park MMO's but without the standard level tied progression of hit points and other stats going up and up, this 220hp would be a full heal on a tank style character that has gear and skills and spells on them that up their HP to 220.

This would also give us great challenges in raids and such without having huge #'s in the 10's of thousands of points being exchanged just to prove how strong your character has become that they have the HP to absorb 15k damage and then do an 8.2k crit .

Things can be theme park and sandbox. This could all work quite well. There could still be danger around the next corner for explorers and raiders and groups that like the dungeon crawl. And we could also have a leveling system, just not one that is tied directly to your characters stats only. We could have houses and deep crafting and gear degradation with players being able to repair it.

There is a way for both types of game and gamer to co-exist in a fun new land. This land is.......EQNext? maybe.....

  dandurin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 397

7/11/13 4:20:39 PM#76
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Gallus85

lol.  Nice.

But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation. 

Yep.  It sure is left up to interpretation.

But Sandbox = UGC.  Themepark is content that is fed to you and you 'ride' it for amusement.  The whole design philosophy behind themepark vs. sandbox is different.  These are things that have been known among the community for years.  The only reason why it's in question now is because some people refuse to accept the truth.  Therefore the very essence of the definition is now in question.

 

Pretty much true.

 

If EQ:N doesn't at least have player-made non-instanced housing, ships, and castles then Smed is full of crap. 

 

Themepark

SW:ToR

EQ 2, WoW, etc.

Eq 1

... big gap

(SandPark)

ArcheAge, Black Desert, Pathfinder, etc.

... big gap

Ultima Online

Eve

... big gap

Wurm Online

Minecraft

.. big gap

Second Life

Sandbox

 

  Fourplay

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/10
Posts: 128

7/11/13 4:55:27 PM#77

Themepark- Content and world is designed by game developers.

Sandbox- Developers give players tools to design some modular prefabricated options for content or world.

Linnear- Whether sandbox or themepark, this content is called this when a sequence or order is 1,2,3,4,5.

Non Linnear- Whether sandbox or themepark, this content is called this when a sequence or order trends random.

Open World- Huge world with few zones or instances, has loading at certain points.

Seamless open world- Huge world no zones or instances, with hidden region loading in background.

Procedural generation- Algorythmically generated content rather than manual creation, can be linnear or non linnear.

Emergent gameplay- When a game has a good simulation that responds and is affected by users actions.

 

My favorite is emergent gameplay:

Gambling. Auction house market play, changing game objectives, emergent narrative, etc. Basically where all actions have lasting and transitional impact from semi permanent to permanent excluding permanent death.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

7/11/13 5:32:17 PM#78
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by muffins89
i already don't like that there's a "story".   let us make our own for once. 

A game without a story isn't a game, you end up with something like Minecraft.

You need a minimum of lore to have any meanginful adventure.

 

Incorrect.  A game is anything that has rules, objectives and a goal.  Baseball has no story, but it's a game.

SimCity isn't specifically a game.  It has no defined goal.  It's more of a toy (like a ball or a bat).  You can make up your own goals and in turn make your own game.  But SimCity in itself is not a game.  It's a toy/tool (for creating your own games)

You can have a game without a story.

You can have a story without a game.

False, sports DO have stories.

 

Did you keep an eye on the Super Bowl? It had tons of storylines going into it. Colin Kaepernick starting in the Super Bowl after taking over halfway through the season, the first time in NFL History two head coaches that were brothers were coaching against each other in the Super Bowl, Ray Lewis' "last ride" as he announced before the post-season he was going to retire win or lose. Sports have tons of stories. Andrew Luck, RG3, Russell Wilson, Chuck Pagono beating Luekemia. There were tons of storylines in the NFL.

  dandurin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 397

7/11/13 8:12:16 PM#79
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Gallus85

Incorrect.  A game is anything that has rules, objectives and a goal.  Baseball has no story, but it's a game.

SimCity isn't specifically a game.  It has no defined goal.  It's more of a toy (like a ball or a bat).  You can make up your own goals and in turn make your own game.  But SimCity in itself is not a game.  It's a toy/tool (for creating your own games)

You can have a game without a story.

You can have a story without a game.

False, sports DO have stories.

 

Did you keep an eye on the Super Bowl? It had tons of storylines going into it. Colin Kaepernick starting in the Super Bowl after taking over halfway through the season, the first time in NFL History two head coaches that were brothers were coaching against each other in the Super Bowl, Ray Lewis' "last ride" as he announced before the post-season he was going to retire win or lose. Sports have tons of stories. Andrew Luck, RG3, Russell Wilson, Chuck Pagono beating Luekemia. There were tons of storylines in the NFL.

 

Wordplay.

 

The media finds emergent stories about players to add to the appeal of a game and boost the ratings.

 

What makes sports inherently interesting is the emergent story that the contestants create during the match, huge difference.

  Ronin316

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/04
Posts: 12

7/11/13 8:38:34 PM#80
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Roguewiz

The more story you have, the closer to themepark you become.

That's totally false. EQ has the most elaborate story of any MMO out there, there is so much lore you could fill thousands of books with it, and EQ wasn't a themepark, it was one of the most free and unrestricted PVE MMO out there.

She's right. EQ told A story. A very long complex story spanning ages and geography. What it didn't do was tell YOUR story.

like some of the themeparks out there today. Your story, life, and adventures were up to you.

Waterlily I [heart] u. Just sayin =P

 

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