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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PVP vs PVE, Themepark VS Sandbox. Let the polls decide!

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111 posts found
  whisperwynd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/10/13 1:28:53 PM#41
Originally posted by DavisFlight

All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

 Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic unless it is a tiny part of the population. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

 It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

 

  Horusra

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2161

7/10/13 1:34:43 PM#42
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by nariusseldon

This poll is not deciding anything.

The market does.

Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.

Yet that's all we seem to get. Wonder why that is? Arm chair economy aside.  

Because the people making the games now (publishers) have ZERO understanding of the genre and just think "If we pump enough money into it and hire the right people, we can make a WoW that'll topple WoW!"

The people with sense are making niche MMOs.

Exactly the point I was making. They are niche. Does that mean they aren't good? Of course not. The issue of whether the populace in general don't know what's good for them is another thread entirely, and one that would be more guess work than any so far.  

All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

I like how the call of the sandboxer is Themeparks do not retain players...while they do not meantion that Sandbox games can not get players.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2509

7/10/13 1:37:04 PM#43
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by DavisFlight

All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

 Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

 It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

 

Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

 

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

  Horusra

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2161

7/10/13 1:39:53 PM#44
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by DavisFlight

All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

 Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

 It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

 

Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

 

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

Then that audience better be ready for the budget that those games can get together to make the game.  Instead of the masses that whine about the games lacking here.  If you not get the masses to play you do not get the massive amount of capital to make the game.  It is a double edge sword. 

  whisperwynd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/10/13 1:46:29 PM#45
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

 

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

 I don't disagree with that. Look at many here are venting about not having a good mmo to play. Yes the ones out there have players but nothing really massive.

 WoW created what some call the 'mainstream' while games like EvE are called 'niche' for garnering a smaller portion of gamers.

Add to this mess that games are no longer made (by most) for gamers but for the larger percentage of what they wish to tap, but not being able to please everyone.

The more gamers there are, the more varied will be the wants and desires of each, segregating groups that will have specific definitions for their 'perfect' game.  FFA-PvP sandbox, PvP-PvE w/consentual PvP, PvE themepark with no gear grind/with gear grind  etc..it'll never end.

  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

7/10/13 1:46:44 PM#46
Originally posted by Roguewiz

Hense the whole PVP gear, as a PVP spec, in PVP areas comment

Translation:

  • PVE Spec can't use PVP gear
  • Because you aren't a PVP spec, you can't be in a PVP area as a PVE spec
  • Because you are a PVP spec, you can't be in a PVE area as a PVP spec.
It's the easiest way to balance a game around PVP and PVE.  If everyone has access to a PVE Spec and a separate PVP spec, the only thing you need to do is balance the PVP spec for PVP, and the PVE spec for PVE since they will never collide.

You're talking if there are pvp area, that's not 100% pve content were pvp is forced in those ereas, for example: 1 vs 1, battlegrounds, guild vs guild this is optional when you have to flag yourself for those types of pvp.

Many games tried to make pve with pvp zones, that don't work well, they often screwing things up for both pvp and pve, and most of the time pve get's to be screwed more, this also make developers to spend time on coding and maintainig two different systems, for gear, currancy, abilities and what not just to keep pvpers happy,  plus it adds a lot more bugs to deal with, instead developers could spent no time on maintaining two systems and more time to maintaint one system and develop more content.

If you want pvp it has to be saparated from pve by a different server then pvp gear and setings are logic.

If it is pve with optional pvp it has to have same pve gear and setings for both pve and pvp.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19446

7/10/13 3:16:21 PM#47
Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

That is right.

That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.

They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.

 

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2505

7/10/13 3:24:01 PM#48
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by DavisFlight

All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

 Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

 It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

 

Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

 

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

It is nice that you understand marketing so well. Maybe you should try working for a game company and see how your attitude floats there. You might have a real surprise coming up for ya. You can think all your little intricate thoughts about why things are the way they are and you are more than likely wrong. WHY?  Games are about fun, who cares what they are. If people have fun, then they will play. If they don't have fun, there is no one to play the game. That is all it is. Who cares what style game it is.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1454

7/10/13 3:29:49 PM#49
Originally posted by Jemcrystal

In TERA's forecast today I see a slight leaning to PvE over PvP.

PvE DOMINATES!

PvP looses!  PvP looses!

I like posts like that. In Tera PvP is completely without any meaning or purpose. It is just another themepark with pve content and the pvp on toggle as afterthought... no, and i repeat not one pvp mechanic. It is a pve game. It is not a pvp game. And don't base pvp, or pvp player on some defunct pvp server at themepark pve games.

With other words, if you would play Tera (as a pvp player) i wouldn't care about pve or pvp. And maybe even choose the pve server. (because the pvp part of Tera is ridiculous)

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

7/10/13 4:07:15 PM#50
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

That is right.

That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.

They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.

 

WoW and Maplestory are the only MMOs in your examples and both are pretty old.

LoL is a PVP-based game in the MOBA genre, built by the people who pretty much cemented the genre in the Warcraft 3 map DotA. Comparing this to an MMO is like comparing steamed broccoli to a cheeseburger.

World of Tanks while not a MMO has territory control elements ergo it does have at least one sandbox element (you have an effect on the world in clan wars).

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1556

7/10/13 4:11:06 PM#51
Originally posted by l2avism

PVP vs PVE, Themepark VS Sandbox. Let the polls decide!

 

Themepark PvE Games: (most of them) Original EQ2

Themepark PVP Games: none

Themepark Both: WoW, DAOC, EQ2 after PVP patch

Sanbox PVE Games: not many, SecondLife, UO after trammel

Sandbox PVP Games: planetside, not many

Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

And what about Hybrid sandpark like ArcheAge or Age Of Wushu.

Sandpark PVE

Sandpark PVP should be added to your poll please.

I'll take sandpark PVE with PVP servers as an option.

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  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2691

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/10/13 4:16:14 PM#52

My vote is sandbox PvE but could of just as easily been sandbox both, if the PvP is consensual like it was in Asheron's Call.  I feel that is the best of both worlds for both crowds.

 

Also my definition of sandbox is slightly more robust then most because for me sandbox means open world (non instanced, Zoning optional) non linear, non-quest grinding, different avenues to progress style of an MMO so to me Asheron's Call is just as much a sandbox as Eve is.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Phaserlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/04
Posts: 695

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. -Lao Tzu

7/10/13 4:17:39 PM#53
Originally posted by l2avism

Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?

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  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

7/10/13 4:18:03 PM#54
Originally posted by azzamasin

My vote is sandbox PvE but could of just as easily been sandbox both, if the PvP is consensual like it was in Asheron's Call.  I feel that is the best of both worlds for both crowds.

 

Also my definition of sandbox is slightly more robust then most because for me sandbox means open world (non instanced, Zoning optional) non linear, non-quest grinding, different avenues to progress style of an MMO so to me Asheron's Call is just as much a sandbox as Eve is.

Best of both worlds = consensual in some zones, non-consensual in others, just make sure to strike a balance between those two types of zones and make sure PVP is fun, that way you can lure more unsuspecting vi....players <.<.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/10/13 4:19:11 PM#55
Originally posted by l2avism

The other thread was biased towards PvE and did not have a poll.

There were also claims that the majority of gamers are strictly PvE or PvP without any evidence to back up those claims.

A poll solves that.

 Depends on what you're trying to prove.

 

You simply said PvP, there are some very different options there. Open World PvP, or opt in/opt out or battlegrounds.

 

Most like to PvE with some PvP thrown in that they can choose when and where to do it.

The vast majority hate open world PvP that can interrupt their play.

 

So this poll could show that players like some PvP they can participate in, but won't clarify anything in regards to if that PvP has to always be forced on or if it can be opt in in some manner. The majority of PvP/PvE threads have been arguing for/against open world PvP and this poll doesn't touch that fact.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2509

7/10/13 4:45:06 PM#56
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by DavisFlight

All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.

A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.

 Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo

 It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.

 

Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.

Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.

 

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

It is nice that you understand marketing so well. Maybe you should try working for a game company and see how your attitude floats there. You might have a real surprise coming up for ya. You can think all your little intricate thoughts about why things are the way they are and you are more than likely wrong. WHY?  Games are about fun, who cares what they are. If people have fun, then they will play. If they don't have fun, there is no one to play the game. That is all it is. Who cares what style game it is.

I'm a public relations/marketing manager for a software company, but thanks for trying.

And your little diatribe about "fun" says next to nothing. The fun of themeparks derives from doing the linear scripted content. When it runs out, it stops being as fun, and people leave. Hence: SWTOR disaster.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19446

7/10/13 4:45:20 PM#57
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

That is right.

That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.

They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.

 

WoW and Maplestory are the only MMOs in your examples and both are pretty old.

LoL is a PVP-based game in the MOBA genre, built by the people who pretty much cemented the genre in the Warcraft 3 map DotA. Comparing this to an MMO is like comparing steamed broccoli to a cheeseburger.

World of Tanks while not a MMO has territory control elements ergo it does have at least one sandbox element (you have an effect on the world in clan wars).

Yes, wow and maple story are pretty old. So? We are talking example of successes. Not example of success last month.

And both steam broccoli and cheeseburgers are food. Don't tell me you don't think many MMO players also play LoL.

WOT is a sandbox MMO? If a highly instanced pvp arena can be sandbox just by adding one element .. then i would say D3 is a pve MMO since it has TWO MMO elements (AH and crafting).

 

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

7/10/13 4:55:45 PM#58
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.

That is right.

That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.

They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.

 

WoW and Maplestory are the only MMOs in your examples and both are pretty old.

LoL is a PVP-based game in the MOBA genre, built by the people who pretty much cemented the genre in the Warcraft 3 map DotA. Comparing this to an MMO is like comparing steamed broccoli to a cheeseburger.

World of Tanks while not a MMO has territory control elements ergo it does have at least one sandbox element (you have an effect on the world in clan wars).

Yes, wow and maple story are pretty old. So? We are talking example of successes. Not example of success last month.

And both steam broccoli and cheeseburgers are food. Don't tell me you don't think many MMO players also play LoL.

WOT is a sandbox MMO? If a highly instanced pvp arena can be sandbox just by adding one element .. then i would say D3 is a pve MMO since it has TWO MMO elements (AH and crafting).

 

Are you really trying to prove you have Asperberg Syndrome? How can you misinterpret what I am saying so badly and warp it to use it to prove a point they disprove?

Maplestory is an unknown quantity to me, not sure about its population.

World of Warcraft is in terminal decline.

EVE-Online is growing and is trying to expand its universe to encompass other games within its Universe.

What is more successful in your mind? A game which is dying or another game which is thriving ? Keep in mind they're both roughly the same age and in complete contrast to the money earned by both of them WoW has been dying even though it could've afford a EVE-like level upgrade in graphics, many more content expansions than it has gotten and expansion on its genre, instead its dying whereas EVE with far less money earned thus far is pushing forward and growing.

To cut a long story short: The best sandbox game (a true sandbox with PVP and PVE in equal standing and options in your interactions with other players which are nearly unlimited) will outlive the best themepark game, this isn't theoretical, this is fact.

  Mors.Magne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1417

7/11/13 4:13:26 AM#59
Originally posted by Phaserlight
Originally posted by l2avism

Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?

There are a large number of missions and exploration sites. It's enough to keep someone playing for weeks or even months.

 

It's the PvP and human interaction that keeps people coming back for years.

 

However, I don't think I'll be returning to any sort of MMORPG until the Oculus Rift is adopted.

  l2avism

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 100

 
OP  7/11/13 5:29:35 AM#60
Originally posted by Mors.Magne
Originally posted by Phaserlight
Originally posted by l2avism

Sandbox Both: most sandbox games, DF, EVE

Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?

There are a large number of missions and exploration sites. It's enough to keep someone playing for weeks or even months.

 

It's the PvP and human interaction that keeps people coming back for years.

 

However, I don't think I'll be returning to any sort of MMORPG until the Oculus Rift is adopted.

Yeah, try going for the Caldari Navy Raven mission line until completion and see how long that takes. LOL

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