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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Explain to me the appeal of a Crafting Focused MMO

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  Quazal.A

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 420

7/09/13 11:02:16 AM#61
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by YoungCaesar

I think the ideal system would be, instead of those random "epic" loot drops, there should be epic crafting mats dropping from bosses, so theres still that sense of achievement to go out and hunt monsters to craft that epic sword... with tons and tons of different possible mats to collect with different stats...

 

 

There is. The legendaries in WOW are all crafted.

And in each tier, there is usually one or two crafted BIS or almost BIS items.

What narius said, but also this becomes another "unless you raid you get shit" scenario

So many mmo almost add crafting on at the end, some conversation recorded from MMO developers

Dev 1 "ooo only 3 days until alpha/beta/charlie etc oh bugger we forgot to add some crafting, quick bang something"

Dev 2 "hey how about we just update the loot tables on boss drops to include some random item then we dont ahve to worry about crafting for the masses".

And that is how crafting was made for most MMO.

Instead of,

Dev 1 "Now we starting to take shape how can we add some form crafting to the game to increase the depth and complexity".

Dev 2 "I have an idea lets make it so that people can, if they dont feel like raiding, still play our game but be dedicated crafters/builders".

 

Think Final fantasy, they have gone some way with the fact you can craft and not run many mission (can't say exactly how this works only played upto level 5 on CB)

or EVe where crafting/building is a completly different game alltogether that the other players require.

Crafting/building should be a symbiotic relationship between PvE  / PvP and Crafting, and not something that you do when your bored / waiting to level up etc...

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5631

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/09/13 11:12:22 AM#62
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft  But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted. 

 

you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.

If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.

 

I never player SWG but people say it had the best crafting. I dont know. I havent seen an mmo with that level of crafting, not well done at least.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Thorkune

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/28/06
Posts: 1836

Dyslexics of the world...UNTIE!

7/09/13 11:19:06 AM#63
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft  But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted. 

 

My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types.

I see you never played SWG, just about everything was player created, yet a fully crafting focused character had no way to hunt for things like Krayt scales which were required to make top end equipment. Hence where community oriented design came into play, a combat player gathered these things and sold or traded them to a crafter, giving that combat oriented character plenty of reasons to hunt harder mobs.

On top of that exploring uncovered far more valuable resources. Which a crafter could place equipment that collected said resource.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I loved gathering the resources to craft a set of RIS armor. The challenge of getting all of the uncommon/rare materials was awesome. Plus, the quest chain to learn the schematic was even more amazing.

Woolamander Harrower Bone Fragment
Giant Dune Kimogila Scale
Peko Peko Albatross Feather
Reclusive Gurk King Hide

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/09/13 11:22:01 AM#64

If you're killing creatures which drop materials that are needed by crafters and can therefore trade those items to a crafter in exchange for good loot then it really isn't all the different from getting the loot directly from the mobs.

 

The problem is balance. If you have a randomized loot system like AC where the best loot comes from creatures/chests then what can you really have left for crafters to do (and in this day and age there are enough crafters out there that every game is going to have crafting)? Sure AC provided tinkering where you boost the stats of the weapons, but there is a lack of creation there which means I don't think most crafting type of players would find that interesting enough.

 

So I think some games go with needing the materials from creatures, so hunting is still viable. While allowing players to build the best weapons/armor so that crafters feel very useful and powerful. It allows both sides to get to do what they want while making players have needs to interact with one another. Granted an Auction House is going to put a dent in that because it will make it harder to trade materials directly to a crafter since they can go out and buy them for as cheap as possible. But on the other hand that means a player could quest for money rewards and buy top gear without having to grind mobs.

 

I'm torn on if randomized loot or crafting centric is better. Asheron's Call has always been my pick for best MMO and randomized loot played a big roll in the game. However, I can see some serious limits with that type of system in today's gaming. As it is they currently struggle with quest rewards because they don't want to eclipse loot, but then what makes the quest rewards worth getting?

 

In either case, the one type of system that should NEVER be used is a roll of the dice on finishing a quest to see if you get the reward you need so that you have to run that quest a dozen times just to roll against another player for the 1 stupid piece you need. That style of rewards is atrocious and simply should not exist in MMOs. If quest rewards are meant to be appealing, then make them guaranteed. I shouldn't have to repeat your limited content over and over simply because you haven't made enough content to keep me busy.

  Quazal.A

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 420

7/09/13 11:24:55 AM#65
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft  But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted. 

 

you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.

If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.

Is what you described not EvE :)

you can live full time in eve without having ever killed a rat/mob heck, without ever undocking

and whilst no villages exist you can build stations (biggest solid objects in game baring orbital bodies) so from smallest (1x Antimatter Charge S) upto biggest (Caldari*insert race here* Station) everything can and IS built,

Like you never played SWG so cannot comment but EvE fulfills everything you say and yes i agree you can't just build sword/armor and expect the manufacturing side to be a big part of game, it needs 'more'

 

 

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

7/09/13 12:58:54 PM#66
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft  But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted. 

 

you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful.

If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.

 

I never player SWG but people say it had the best crafting. I dont know. I havent seen an mmo with that level of crafting, not well done at least.

tales of the desert

  User Deleted
7/09/13 2:03:44 PM#67


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by rojo6934

Originally posted by azzamasin When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft  But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.   
you cannot make an mmorpg focused on crafting that only lets you craft weapons and armors and expect it to be successful. If its going to focus on crafting i have to be able to craft everything in the world and make a living (in game) doing business with other players. And that includes using terrain and tools to create entire buildings and hell if you are an expert crafter you can craft even whole villages with your guild mates so that you put your own npcs to sell for you the stuff you crafted. Sell houses to other players, etc. Full focus craftin is not just weapon and armor. Thats one of the smallest parts of a crafting mmo.   I never player SWG but people say it had the best crafting. I dont know. I havent seen an mmo with that level of crafting, not well done at least.
tales of the desert


a tale in the desert crafting is nothing like swg crafting

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2771

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  7/09/13 2:29:01 PM#68
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by azzamasin

 

I never sat and killed 1 type of mob. 


 

Killing "1 specific mob over and over" was refering to dungeon boss and as pointed out, it is pretty much the same as "roaming" you are doing - both are about random drop.

 

It is the randomness of stats that is killing the game economy and you need to get rid of it in order to make crafting meaningful and deep so that crafters can produce what people want - supply the demand.


That shifts the concept of gear being the tool instead of reward.

 Granted I hadn't played many MMO's from 1999 to 2008 (AC, DAoC, CoH and WoW) but AC had the best economy in any game I played at that time or since so yes you can build an economy, and a strong one based on the gear being a reward.  The randomness of stats and more importantly looks was what kept me playing.  Every game since has used the "you know what you get before you get it" loot philosophy and all of them sucked compared to AC.  Like Diablo (I'd wager) loot was one of the driving factors in the game (for me it was the only factor).  Take for example, GW2, Rift, TSW, and now Neverwinter.  I've reached the zenith of my loot acquisition in each and in each I quit shortly thereafter.  For me Loot is an important factor in longevity of a game and because I have only played 3 MMO's longer then a year (AC, DAoC and WoW) I have came to the realization that once I gather the best loot then there's no real incentive "for me" to log in any more and I quickly get bored.  WoW did it through constant raids, AC did it with unlimited choices and well I played DAoC for the PvP so that's a different story. 

 

This is why I am worried about a crafting centric game like people claim will be in EQN because it's going to be a sandbox.  Hopefully there it takes a long long time to get BiS.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2771

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  7/09/13 2:38:41 PM#69
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

If you're killing creatures which drop materials that are needed by crafters and can therefore trade those items to a crafter in exchange for good loot then it really isn't all the different from getting the loot directly from the mobs.

 

The problem is balance. If you have a randomized loot system like AC where the best loot comes from creatures/chests then what can you really have left for crafters to do (and in this day and age there are enough crafters out there that every game is going to have crafting)? Sure AC provided tinkering where you boost the stats of the weapons, but there is a lack of creation there which means I don't think most crafting type of players would find that interesting enough.

 

So I think some games go with needing the materials from creatures, so hunting is still viable. While allowing players to build the best weapons/armor so that crafters feel very useful and powerful. It allows both sides to get to do what they want while making players have needs to interact with one another. Granted an Auction House is going to put a dent in that because it will make it harder to trade materials directly to a crafter since they can go out and buy them for as cheap as possible. But on the other hand that means a player could quest for money rewards and buy top gear without having to grind mobs.

 

I'm torn on if randomized loot or crafting centric is better. Asheron's Call has always been my pick for best MMO and randomized loot played a big roll in the game. However, I can see some serious limits with that type of system in today's gaming. As it is they currently struggle with quest rewards because they don't want to eclipse loot, but then what makes the quest rewards worth getting?

 

In either case, the one type of system that should NEVER be used is a roll of the dice on finishing a quest to see if you get the reward you need so that you have to run that quest a dozen times just to roll against another player for the 1 stupid piece you need. That style of rewards is atrocious and simply should not exist in MMOs. If quest rewards are meant to be appealing, then make them guaranteed. I shouldn't have to repeat your limited content over and over simply because you haven't made enough content to keep me busy.

Early on in AC quest rewards sucked but now in the last 4 or 5 years they have not only made quests more indepth and more fun they also added several different types of reward that make it worth doing.

  • MFK keys - which prior to Legendary chests a few months back when they added in a new loot profile, contained the best gear randomly
  • Experience - The best XP comes from doing quests, at level 200+ it isn't uncommon to get a ¼ or more bar of XP
  • Alternate Advancement XP - Its the best way to acquire Luminance (the endgame AA system)
  • Titles - Are always fun to get
  • Elemental and Mob Specific Slayer Rends - Enchantments used on weapons to make you hit harder versus specific types of mobs
Anyway I always considered AC the best crafting game because even though you never make a Breatplate or a Sword, you do enhance those loot drops and a good crafter is in very high demand.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

7/09/13 2:52:50 PM#70

appeal of crafting is that you created it, and if people knows you, you become the legendary weapon crafter and people will look for you. Therefore you becoming like a Crafting star in the game.

Those that provides you with the materials, become your go to guy for materials.

Thats is the appeal, if you don't craft or only craft sometimes then its not your cup of tea.

Crafting focused is just like builder focused Minecraft games, its for those that has the time and patience to do it.

 

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Jemcrystal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1354

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

7/09/13 10:55:53 PM#71

Crafting in FFXI gave me a prominence in the community.  Anyone can whack a mole over the head but few people can make that one in a million piece of jewelry or high potion.  Still I would like to see crafting improved by less boring repetition and more attention to role playing details.  I like how Mabinogi did crafting where you learn a mini game that supports an actual imitation of the real life act of sewing needle work or hammering out the weak spots in hot metal.  But I would like to see a complete replication of the act of metalworking so much so it could be used as a carbon copy in real life.  You would really learn something about the craft not just pretend you were making shiz.  Educational even.

 

You brought up EQNext I would note here that I did NOT like Everquest's crafting system at all!  It was overly complex and still there was the repetition.  I would rather learn to create something in real life when a game makes creation even more tedious.

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