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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We don't need anymore PvP focused sandbox mmos right now.

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677 posts found
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10578

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/08/13 6:19:55 PM#121


Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by jdlamson75 Every themepark out there is primarily based around PvE.  Now the PvE crowd wants dibs on the sandboxes, too.  Want, want, want.  Go raid a dragon lair or something and stay out of my sandbox.  Thank you.
Does it strike anyone as odd that a proponent of sandbox PvP (I am assuming FFA PvP where anything goes) is asking for fairness in the market where a lot of real PvP happens?  
Isn't it ironic that the WoW generation is trying to get in good with the EVE and UO generations?



Even more ironic that I'm part of the "WoW Generation". :-)

Unless I'm reading this wrong. Heh.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
7/08/13 6:36:09 PM#122
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by jdlamson75
Every themepark out there is primarily based around PvE.  Now the PvE crowd wants dibs on the sandboxes, too.  Want, want, want.  Go raid a dragon lair or something and stay out of my sandbox.  Thank you.



Does it strike anyone as odd that a proponent of sandbox PvP (I am assuming FFA PvP where anything goes) is asking for fairness in the market where a lot of real PvP happens?

 

Isn't it ironic that the WoW generation is trying to get in good with the EVE and UO generations?

Only if you learn English from a song.

I can speak perfect english, english with any number of accents and regional idioms and I can quite easily translate meanings between english and my own native tongue at the drop of a hat (to say nothing of being able to act as translator between two people speak different dialects of english). If you wish to act in an superior manner you would do well not to get into debates you do not have a firm grasp of the subject matter, something you seem keen on not doing.

 

 

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2111

joie de vivre

7/08/13 6:36:20 PM#123

Other than EVE I'm having trouble thinking of any worth mentioning...

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4667

7/08/13 6:50:15 PM#124
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by jdlamson75
Every themepark out there is primarily based around PvE.  Now the PvE crowd wants dibs on the sandboxes, too.  Want, want, want.  Go raid a dragon lair or something and stay out of my sandbox.  Thank you.



Does it strike anyone as odd that a proponent of sandbox PvP (I am assuming FFA PvP where anything goes) is asking for fairness in the market where a lot of real PvP happens?

 

Isn't it ironic that the WoW generation is trying to get in good with the EVE and UO generations?

Only if you learn English from a song.

I can speak perfect english, english with any number of accents and regional idioms and I can quite easily translate meanings between english and my own native tongue at the drop of a hat (to say nothing of being able to act as translator between two people speak different dialects of english). If you wish to act in an superior manner you would do well not to get into debates you do not have a firm grasp of the subject matter, something you seem keen on not doing.

 

 

And yet you didn't get the reference or why it was posted. I'd say you handled that well but....I wouldn't want to add any real irony to this.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1796

7/08/13 6:57:52 PM#125

PvP is good.

 

FFA PvP is bad.

 

Calling all PvP gamers griefers is no better than calling all PvE gamers carebears.

 

I like to game. I enjoy MMO games. I hate force questing as much as I hate forced PvP. I just don't like being told what to do. See?

  Ikisis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/23/09
Posts: 289

7/08/13 7:02:56 PM#126
Originally posted by free2play

PvP is good.

 

FFA PvP is bad.

 

Calling all PvP gamers griefers is no better than calling all PvE gamers carebears.

 

I like to game. I enjoy MMO games. I hate force questing as much as I hate forced PvP. I just don't like being told what to do. See?

And Nether do we. If i see you farming mobs for 2 hours out in the middle of no where i dont want some mechanic telling me i cant cut your head off and steal your pixels..... So see how that kinda goes both ways?


Full Loot PvP http://lifeisfeudal.com/ Next Generation Sandbox MMORPG

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1386

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/08/13 7:09:26 PM#127
Originally posted by Ikisis
Originally posted by free2play

PvP is good.

 

FFA PvP is bad.

 

Calling all PvP gamers griefers is no better than calling all PvE gamers carebears.

 

I like to game. I enjoy MMO games. I hate force questing as much as I hate forced PvP. I just don't like being told what to do. See?

And Nether do we. If i see you farming mobs for 2 hours out in the middle of no where i dont want some mechanic telling me i cant cut your head off and steal your pixels..... So see how that kinda goes both ways?

It does goes both ways, yet here we are 7 pages later still arguing the stances of who's right and wrong, which can't possibly be resolved.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2016

7/08/13 7:15:35 PM#128

I think these discussions should have some ground rules set about what exactly you're arguing for/against. Obviously everybody is entitled to their own opinion and if you prefer a certain type of game, you're not wrong. So no hardcore full loot pvp sandbox proponent can tell an alleged "carebear" that they're wrong for liking a certain type of game.

 

That being said, us devious hardcore pvping jerkbags aren't typically trying to tell you what you do or don't like, we're trying to make an objective argument for why sandbox games are -IN GENERAL- better games. The main points we try to make are as follows:

1. They're less restrictive.

Simply put, there are less "imaginary walls." Be that literal in the case of instanced dungeons and zones etc or metaphorical by way of restrictions on crafting or fighting. Some of the biggest and most notable examples are non-instanced player housing, large scale city building/sieging, and of course ffa pvp/some form of looting.

 

2. Better gameplay.

In general sandbox games are much less about addictive, non-satisfying grinds and more about the gameplay every step of the way. I do not want to grind my way through boring pve quests (or any kind of boring pve) just to have "end game content." In sandbox games you can often participate in the same things your higher level friends can participate in, you just won't be quite as useful.

 

3. More satisfying!

This, for me, largely goes back to the ffa pvp/full loot aspect. Nobody WANTS to die and lose all of their stuff. They just don't. What a lot of people want to do is NOT die and lose all their stuff. That only happens in a world where it's at least possible to die and lose your stuff. This is a concept called risk/reward. The less risky it is, the less rewarding it is to overcome that risky situation.

  Ikisis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/23/09
Posts: 289

7/08/13 7:18:18 PM#129
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by Ikisis
Originally posted by free2play

PvP is good.

 

FFA PvP is bad.

 

Calling all PvP gamers griefers is no better than calling all PvE gamers carebears.

 

I like to game. I enjoy MMO games. I hate force questing as much as I hate forced PvP. I just don't like being told what to do. See?

And Nether do we. If i see you farming mobs for 2 hours out in the middle of no where i dont want some mechanic telling me i cant cut your head off and steal your pixels..... So see how that kinda goes both ways?

It does goes both ways, yet here we are 7 pages later still arguing the stances of who's right and wrong, which can't possibly be resolved.

It never will be I just dont understand how people who dont want FFA PvP haven't found a game already. They arent happy with whats on the market so maybe just maybe they need a taste of something new, something thrilling and more challenging and i can almost promise fighting another player is much harder then any Mob spawn (And yelds better loots).


Full Loot PvP http://lifeisfeudal.com/ Next Generation Sandbox MMORPG

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4667

7/08/13 7:20:02 PM#130
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by Ikisis
Originally posted by free2play

PvP is good.

 

FFA PvP is bad.

 

Calling all PvP gamers griefers is no better than calling all PvE gamers carebears.

 

I like to game. I enjoy MMO games. I hate force questing as much as I hate forced PvP. I just don't like being told what to do. See?

And Nether do we. If i see you farming mobs for 2 hours out in the middle of no where i dont want some mechanic telling me i cant cut your head off and steal your pixels..... So see how that kinda goes both ways?

It does goes both ways, yet here we are 7 pages later still arguing the stances of who's right and wrong, which can't possibly be resolved.

Sure it can. It's called a pvp server and a pve server. Have a free for all server for all I or any other pve player cares. As long as I'm not forced into it fill your boots over there.

The real reason they argue is because with the option to go to a pve server they wont be free kills on their pvp server and that ruins the fun for them. Which says something about the argument they're trying to make.

 

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1386

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/08/13 7:24:04 PM#131
Originally posted by Ikisis

It never will be I just dont understand how people who dont want FFA PvP haven't found a game already. They arent happy with whats on the market so maybe just maybe they need a taste of something new, something thrilling and more challenging and i can almost promise fighting another player is much harder then any Mob spawn (And yelds better loots).

I believe BOTH sides (PvPers & PvErs) are both wanting something new and fun. The problem now is finding the perfect one for each. If one existed, then we wouldn't be here discussing which is needed more...we'd be playing it.

I like PvP yet I also like cooperative play in accomplishing something big. I'm not at either extremes of the spectrum. 

For me, the perfect balance will be probably even harder to find than those of you that only want either or but well done all the same. 

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2016

7/08/13 7:25:24 PM#132
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by Ikisis
Originally posted by free2play

PvP is good.

 

FFA PvP is bad.

 

Calling all PvP gamers griefers is no better than calling all PvE gamers carebears.

 

I like to game. I enjoy MMO games. I hate force questing as much as I hate forced PvP. I just don't like being told what to do. See?

And Nether do we. If i see you farming mobs for 2 hours out in the middle of no where i dont want some mechanic telling me i cant cut your head off and steal your pixels..... So see how that kinda goes both ways?

It does goes both ways, yet here we are 7 pages later still arguing the stances of who's right and wrong, which can't possibly be resolved.

Sure it can. It's called a pvp server and a pve server. Have a free for all server for all I or any other pve player cares. As long as I'm not forced into it fill your boots over there.

The real reason they argue is because with the option to go to a pve server they wont be free kills on their pvp server and that ruins the fun for them. Which says something about the argument they're trying to make.

 

 

No, it doesn't say something (negative) about the argument we're trying to make. Yes, crafters are "easy kills" for PK's in ffa pvp games. It's a profession, just like crafting is. The funny thing is in UO, the "carebear" professions like the crafters and pve characters were always the money makers.

 

So yes, in a sandbox game there is an eco system or a food chain. That's because sandbox games are better and more organic, so systems like that can form.

  giga1000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/06
Posts: 96

7/08/13 7:29:14 PM#133

The main issue is it should be one or the other WHY?? Company's have to either hire 2 teams 1 team to make PVE and another to make PVP or convert PVE devs to develop PVP from a PVE based game which is stupid. Just put all your resources into one or the other to create a great game.

MMO company's can't do both at the same time and make it work well with no major issues. It also is a massive waste of development time being you have devs doing both PVE and PVP content when if you put them all on one or the other their production is doubled at the least let alone have to hire all the managers and admin to coordinate each team. 

 

By focusing on one or the other you can sink more money into PVE or PVP content or new ideas instead of wasting it on management etc.

The best thing to do it PIck one and go after it to make the best game you can with the best new ideas you can create.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4667

7/08/13 7:33:56 PM#134
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

 

 

No, it doesn't say something (negative) about the argument we're trying to make. Yes, crafters are "easy kills" for PK's in ffa pvp games. It's a profession, just like crafting is. The funny thing is in UO, the "carebear" professions like the crafters and pve characters were always the money makers.

 

So yes, in a sandbox game there is an eco system or a food chain. That's because sandbox games are better and more organic, so systems like that can form.

I've always found an ecosystem required live bodies in it to actually be anything more than a dead world. what happened in UO when they split the servers into pvp and pve again....I kind of forget.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  whisperwynd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1386

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

7/08/13 7:36:25 PM#135
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer
Originally posted by DamonVile

Sure it can. It's called a pvp server and a pve server. Have a free for all server for all I or any other pve player cares. As long as I'm not forced into it fill your boots over there.

The real reason they argue is because with the option to go to a pve server they wont be free kills on their pvp server and that ruins the fun for them. Which says something about the argument they're trying to make.

 

 

No, it doesn't say something (negative) about the argument we're trying to make. Yes, crafters are "easy kills" for PK's in ffa pvp games. It's a profession, just like crafting is. The funny thing is in UO, the "carebear" professions like the crafters and pve characters were always the money makers.

 

So yes, in a sandbox game there is an eco system or a food chain. That's because sandbox games are better and more organic, so systems like that can form.

  If you had the choice to choose a PvP or PvE server of the same game then those crafters on the PvP server know what they are getting into. I don't see how this absolves the argument that is going on, and on, and on.  lol

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2016

7/08/13 7:38:55 PM#136
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

 

 

No, it doesn't say something (negative) about the argument we're trying to make. Yes, crafters are "easy kills" for PK's in ffa pvp games. It's a profession, just like crafting is. The funny thing is in UO, the "carebear" professions like the crafters and pve characters were always the money makers.

 

So yes, in a sandbox game there is an eco system or a food chain. That's because sandbox games are better and more organic, so systems like that can form.

I've always found an ecosystem required live bodies in it to actually be anything more than a dead world. what happened in UO when they split the servers into pvp and pve again....I kind of forget.

Not only is this changing the topic, it also hurts your case. UO was quickly and steadily increasing in population until they introduced Trammel. Within a year or 2 of trammel being released, the population started falling and hasn't really stopped.

 

Thanks for bringing that point up because it's one I failed to mention in my post. Non-sandbox games often have huge bursts of activity in the beginning and then quickly die off. This is because people get addicted to the grind, but are ultimately disappointed with the actual game.

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

7/08/13 7:42:26 PM#137

The problem is

pvp players cannot think of pve other than WoW formula (redoing dungeons and raids over and over again) and they jump to the conclusion that it is deadly boring

pve players cannot think of pvp other than "hurr durr I will kill you while you are taking a shit in the middle of the woods and steal all your grind lewt" and they yell at everyone that does pvp to play a moba (dumb argument)

 

And sometimes , it is the other way around

 

Both are right and wrong

Balance is impossible with the current pattern of mmos (EvE gets pretty close tho, but that game is not for everyone)

"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4667

7/08/13 8:44:07 PM#138
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

 

 

No, it doesn't say something (negative) about the argument we're trying to make. Yes, crafters are "easy kills" for PK's in ffa pvp games. It's a profession, just like crafting is. The funny thing is in UO, the "carebear" professions like the crafters and pve characters were always the money makers.

 

So yes, in a sandbox game there is an eco system or a food chain. That's because sandbox games are better and more organic, so systems like that can form.

I've always found an ecosystem required live bodies in it to actually be anything more than a dead world. what happened in UO when they split the servers into pvp and pve again....I kind of forget.

Not only is this changing the topic, it also hurts your case. UO was quickly and steadily increasing in population until they introduced Trammel. Within a year or 2 of trammel being released, the population started falling and hasn't really stopped.

 

Thanks for bringing that point up because it's one I failed to mention in my post. Non-sandbox games often have huge bursts of activity in the beginning and then quickly die off. This is because people get addicted to the grind, but are ultimately disappointed with the actual game.

Trammel was added in 2000 the game hit it's peak in population in 2003. They added over 150k subs after the split. In 2008 it was back down to it's pre trammel population numbers. I don't think 8 years is dieing off quickly. Nice try though.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

7/08/13 8:52:19 PM#139
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Margulis

There's a lot of debate on the Everquest Next forums about whether the game is going to be heavily PvP focused or not and most of this has stemmed from some comments from Smed  that have insinuated a heavy PvP focus of the game.  To what extent that focus is we won't know until the reveal, but still, it makes me think to myself why even think about going that route?  Pretty much every bigger name sandbox currently available (Darkfall, EVE, Mortal Online, etc) and coming down the pipeline (Archeage, The Repopulation) is PvP focused.  Do we seriously need another one like that?  It's pretty well known PvE focused gamers greatly outnumber PvP focused ones, so why continually churn out games for a niche market while that same market is devoid of products for the bigger (PvE)  population?  Makes no sense........ 

It's probably because the devs nowadays have a concern about the retention of players after the "endgame" (the famous "themepark trap"). If there is not a good meaningful PVP system, the players will start quiting the mmo after they reach the "endgame", except if the devs produce tons of PVE "content" at a very high speed (bigger than WoW's). But that route is more expensive and hard, while a good and meaningful PVP system as a endgame retainer is much more cheaper and of proven success (see L2 and EVE, as examples i can remember now).

 

 

THIS!!! The devs keep saying Everquest Next will be a very different game - something revolutionary instead of just another version of the games they made in the past.

 

Here's the President of Sony Online Entertainment saying he agrees "wholeheartedly" that "A sandbox game needs conflict to drive the economy, which means open-world PvP and risk/reward."

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/346873836597280770

 

Of course, folks on the Everquest Next board will dismiss this as the head honcho at SOE just trolling them again.

 

Smedley also said you'll be able to destroy vast portions of the world - almost all of it. How does that work if players can't defend stuff through PVP?

 

Anyway, this isn't just about EQN. I believe the concept of "sandbox MMO" implies player freedom in the sense that there are as few artificial barriers to playing as possible. The people inside the game make the fun.

 

Edit: And I'm really pleased to see more people on the general discussion boards thinking the way I do. On the EQN boards it was very different, but I guess they're mostly fans of games SOE made in the past.

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

7/08/13 9:04:42 PM#140
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Waterlily If they promote this game as a PVP game, it's dead out of the gate. PVE players outnumber PVP players tenfold.
Some players like both, what category do they fall into? Good job at making up statistics though.
 He was being kind, its more like a thousand fold.  And this isn't make believe numbers.  There's no rationale human who can look at the MMO landscape and believe that PvP players outnumber PvE players.  Sure there are both but the genre is the, will always be the, loved by the: PvE crowd


It's hardly official, but at least for people on this site, it breaks down like so:

http://www.mmorpg.com/features.cfm/view/polls
Which is more important in an MMO, PvE or PvP?
Opened: 02/19/2009
Respondents: 15,484
Status: Open

PvP - 5.7%
PvE - 14.8%
PvP focus with a little PvE - 10.5%
PvE focus with a little PvP - 34.8%
Equal Parts PvE and PvP - 34.2%




So the "pure" PvE people are nearly triple the numbers of the purely PvP people. The PvE focused people and the equal parts PvP/PvE peole dwarf everyone else though.

I would be interested in a new poll on this same subject.

 

The thing most people are missing here is that from a business perspective the PVE market is oversaturated. You can't get all 35 per cent of it.

 

Now a good part of the 5.7 per cent who prefer PVP are waiting around for the return of the king. There's a lot of money to be had for the devs who can capture their hearts.

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