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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We don't need anymore PvP focused sandbox mmos right now.

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  kjempff

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 757

Make worlds not stories

7/08/13 12:01:01 PM#41
Originally posted by StarI

Honestly, for me there's no such thing as PvE sandbox. What you guys call PvE sandbox  for me = a themepark game with gazillion of fluff. One of the defining traits for a real sandbox is an open world where you are not baby-sitted by developers and a number of social restrictions, but instead have to live in a world where social interaction actually has consequences which go beyond raging in a chat, denieing somone a dungeon run or pressing an ignore button.

Before WoW became the standard there were actually PvE sandbox-ish games, EQ, AC for example. WoW were inspired by these games, but slowly turned towards, defined and refined the Themepark genre. It is possible to have real open worlds with consequences and sandbox elements without it beeing pvp, worlds where You are not getting your hand held and not story driven, it has been done before and it can be done again.

 

Originally posted by Mr_Mechanical

Even though I would have chosen a different approach/attitude when presenting this view, in general, I agree with you.

The term "PVE-SANDBOX" is kind of strange, considering what makes a sandbox first and foremost, regardless of who you ask, is FREEDOM of choice. FREEDOM to choose how you play, and typically the tools available to make that choice substantiate.

I think people that want a "PVE-SANDBOX" really should step back a second and maybe ask themselves if perhaps what they want is other people that are playing in the sandbox with them to stop choosing to PvP. No actual sandbox game forces anyone to fight anyone else. When people are given the freedom to choose "killing someone else" or "ruining someone else's attempt at X", they choose it. It's not dev fault for not locking out PvP in their sandboxes. It's humanity's fault for being destructive, competitive, cruel beings.

You seem to be thinking pvp is freedom to choose. There are as many rules in a pvp game as in a pve game, the rules are just different and while in some areas there is more freedom, it also blocks for other kinds of freedom and gameplay. A very typical example of this is balancing the rules towards pvp equality, while pve mechanics go dull as a result.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/08/13 12:01:11 PM#42


Originally posted by Mr_Mechanical

Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by lizardbones *snip*
Honestly, for me there's no such thing as PvE sandbox. What you guys call PvE sandbox  for me = a themepark game with gazillion of fluff. One of the defining traits for a real sandbox is an open world where you are not baby-sitted by developers and a number of social restrictions, but instead have to live in a world where social interaction actually has consequences which go beyond raging in a chat, denieing somone a dungeon run or pressing an ignore button.
Even though I would have chosen a different approach/attitude when presenting this view, in general, I agree with you.

The term "PVE-SANDBOX" is kind of strange, considering what makes a sandbox first and foremost, regardless of who you ask, is FREEDOM of choice.    FREEDOM to choose how you play, and typically the tools available to make that choice substantiate.

I think people that want a "PVE-SANDBOX" really should step back a second and maybe ask themselves if perhaps what they want is other people that are playing in the sandbox with them to stop choosing to PvP.    No actual sandbox game forces anyone to fight anyone else.    When people are given the freedom to choose "killing someone else" or "ruining someone else's attempt at X", they choose it.       It's not dev fault for not locking out PvP in their sandboxes.  It's humanity's fault for being destructive, competitive, cruel beings.




No, I'm pretty sure when I think "PvE Sandbox", I'm think of a game similar to SWG with the ability to flag for PvP. In other words, the FREEDOM to choose.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2874

There... are... four... lights!

7/08/13 12:01:27 PM#43

People don't kill each other in the streets usually in "real life", or the consequences are very, very harsh, prison and sometimes death penalty (with perma-death of course...).

What the flawed PvP games forget is one important thing:

People are anonymous in the Internet, and therefore a good part of them will act like assholes if given the opportunity. PvP games are the perfect places for those sociopaths to hurt others without risk of repercussions. Games are virtual, there are no direct consequences for bad behavior like in "real life", when you die you can just press "play again" or even just resurrect and resume being an ass.

Additionally, they also forget players will exploit if they can, and while it usually has minimal consequences in PvE, in PvP it can ruin the game for other players.

Good PvP should have a purpose. War between guilds, factions. Having a game world full of psychopaths isn't good PvP, it's a gank fest. And that kind of badly designed PvP hurts the game for the players more than for those who don't play it, since less players means less funds, less funds means less updates, less content, less bug fixes, lesser quality.

And as I already said, there's actually not a single valid reason for not giving a PvE (with optional PvP) server set along with a PvP server set.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2921

7/08/13 12:03:39 PM#44
Originally posted by StarI

 

Honestly, for me there's no such thing as PvE sandbox. What you guys call PvE sandbox  for me = a themepark game with gazillion of fluff. One of the defining traits for a real sandbox is an open world where you are not baby-sitted by developers and a number of social restrictions, but instead have to live in a world where social interaction actually has consequences which go beyond raging in a chat, denieing somone a dungeon run or pressing an ignore button.

Like Everquest?

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 508

7/08/13 12:16:11 PM#45
Originally posted by Margulis

There's a lot of debate on the Everquest Next forums about whether the game is going to be heavily PvP focused or not and most of this has stemmed from some comments from Smed  that have insinuated a heavy PvP focus of the game.  To what extent that focus is we won't know until the reveal, but still, it makes me think to myself why even think about going that route?  Pretty much every bigger name sandbox currently available (Darkfall, EVE, Mortal Online, etc) and coming down the pipeline (Archeage, The Repopulation) is PvP focused.  Do we seriously need another one like that?  It's pretty well known PvE focused gamers greatly outnumber PvP focused ones, so why continually churn out games for a niche market while that same market is devoid of products for the bigger (PvE)  population?  Makes no sense........ 

It's probably because the devs nowadays have a concern about the retention of players after the "endgame" (the famous "themepark trap"). If there is not a good meaningful PVP system, the players will start quiting the mmo after they reach the "endgame", except if the devs produce tons of PVE "content" at a very high speed (bigger than WoW's). But that route is more expensive and hard, while a good and meaningful PVP system as a endgame retainer is much more cheaper and of proven success (see L2 and EVE, as examples i can remember now).

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1362

We live for The One, we die for The One.

7/08/13 12:22:44 PM#46

Originally posted by StarI


Honestly, for me there's no such thing as PvE sandbox. What you guys call PvE sandbox  for me = a themepark game with gazillion of fluff. One of the defining traits for a real sandbox is an open world where you are not baby-sitted by developers and a number of social restrictions, but instead have to live in a world where social interaction actually has consequences which go beyond raging in a chat, denieing somone a dungeon run or pressing an ignore button.

seriously? how many children did you see killed in RL sandboxes?

how many of them kick the sandcastles of other children again and again before they are banished forever?

where did you get the notion that real sandbox have to be about competition?

for me PvE sandbox is a world which progress both based on player actions and inactions, and by that i mean players as a whole, not "you are the greatest hero of this world (and so is every other player playing this game)" crap

 

Originally posted by Mr_Mechanical

Originally posted by StarI
Originally posted by lizardbones

*snip*

Honestly, for me there's no such thing as PvE sandbox. What you guys call PvE sandbox  for me = a themepark game with gazillion of fluff. One of the defining traits for a real sandbox is an open world where you are not baby-sitted by developers and a number of social restrictions, but instead have to live in a world where social interaction actually has consequences which go beyond raging in a chat, denieing somone a dungeon run or pressing an ignore button.

Even though I would have chosen a different approach/attitude when presenting this view, in general, I agree with you.

The term "PVE-SANDBOX" is kind of strange, considering what makes a sandbox first and foremost, regardless of who you ask, is FREEDOM of choice.    FREEDOM to choose how you play, and typically the tools available to make that choice substantiate.

I think people that want a "PVE-SANDBOX" really should step back a second and maybe ask themselves if perhaps what they want is other people that are playing in the sandbox with them to stop choosing to PvP.    No actual sandbox game forces anyone to fight anyone else.    When people are given the freedom to choose "killing someone else" or "ruining someone else's attempt at X", they choose it.       It's not dev fault for not locking out PvP in their sandboxes.  It's humanity's fault for being destructive, competitive, cruel beings.

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

you can never have real freedom of choice in multiplayer game, because besides the limitations given by the hardware and software (dev choices), your choices are always affected and limited by choices of others and vice versa.

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1383

7/08/13 12:24:45 PM#47
Originally posted by Margulis

There's a lot of debate on the Everquest Next forums about whether the game is going to be heavily PvP focused or not and most of this has stemmed from some comments from Smed  that have insinuated a heavy PvP focus of the game.  To what extent that focus is we won't know until the reveal, but still, it makes me think to myself why even think about going that route?  Pretty much every bigger name sandbox currently available (Darkfall, EVE, Mortal Online, etc) and coming down the pipeline (Archeage, The Repopulation) is PvP focused.  Do we seriously need another one like that?  It's pretty well known PvE focused gamers greatly outnumber PvP focused ones, so why continually churn out games for a niche market while that same market is devoid of products for the bigger (PvE)  population?  Makes no sense........ 

Please don't use the word "we"... You are clearly only speaking for yourself, as I certainly would welcome another pvp focused sandbox right now. 

 

Thanks, 

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1383

7/08/13 12:29:18 PM#48
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

People don't kill each other in the streets usually in "real life", or the consequences are very, very harsh, prison and sometimes death penalty (with perma-death of course...).

What the flawed PvP games forget is one important thing:

People are anonymous in the Internet, and therefore a good part of them will act like assholes if given the opportunity. PvP games are the perfect places for those sociopaths to hurt others without risk of repercussions. Games are virtual, there are no direct consequences for bad behavior like in "real life", when you die you can just press "play again" or even just resurrect and resume being an ass.

Additionally, they also forget players will exploit if they can, and while it usually has minimal consequences in PvE, in PvP it can ruin the game for other players.

Good PvP should have a purpose. War between guilds, factions. Having a game world full of psychopaths isn't good PvP, it's a gank fest. And that kind of badly designed PvP hurts the game for the players more than for those who don't play it, since less players means less funds, less funds means less updates, less content, less bug fixes, lesser quality.

And as I already said, there's actually not a single valid reason for not giving a PvE (with optional PvP) server set along with a PvP server set.

While I don't agree with anything else you said (you're over-analyzing the LIVING SHIT out of people)... I am in agreement of PvP and PvE servers. This way, I don't have to hear people complain about being killed. Of course.. I'm not sure if my opinion counts as I am a "asshole" "sociopath". 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2874

There... are... four... lights!

7/08/13 12:36:00 PM#49
Originally posted by Praetalus

While I don't agree with anything else you said (you're over-analyzing the LIVING SHIT out of people)... I am in agreement of PvP and PvE servers. This way, I don't have to hear people complain about being killed. Of course.. I'm not sure if my opinion counts as I am a "asshole" "sociopath". 

Don't try to make me say what I've never said. I never said all PvP amateurs are "asshole" "sociopaths". If I have, please review my post history and point me to the post where I said such a thing.

Not to mention that both you and me know perfectly what kind of players I'm talking about. The simple fact that you agree with giving everyone a server type that fits his play style is proof enough to me that you aren't one of those. Those I talk about would try to deny the availability of PvE servers hoping that this way, they will force more people to play PvP and therefore have more "noobs" to gank and camp.

Sadly, it only takes a couple of bad apples to ruin the whole basket.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 508

7/08/13 12:40:13 PM#50

There is 2 other possible reasons to the most "sandboxy" mmos almost always come with big pvp participation in the gameplay:

 

1- Devs mindset => The devs with more inclination towards sandbox mmos have a same way of think things that makes they pursuit the maximum of "mechanical realism" in their works. So pvp with artificial and unjustified "invulnerabilities" passes little through their heads. Their focus to prevent abuse is more in creating punishments (trying to imitate the reality) instead of that way.

 

2- Paradoxes in sandbox => Is weird a mmo provides a player with the ability to interact and change virtually everything visible in the environmet while at the same time they cant even touch in others players (but can touch in npcs). Some abilitys can even pass unnoticed by some players, but the inability to attack some characters surely will not. 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Zarriya

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 229

7/08/13 12:40:22 PM#51
Originally posted by Ataaka

PvP... It has long been the natural transition from FPS (Consoles alike)  to MMOGs.

For this reason alone, I would say that a graduating class of gamers will leave the console for a more social need found mainly in MMOGs, coming in at a close second. Seasoned MMORPG players are tired of PvP because it is rarely dished-out in fairness to those who don't PvP. 

For that reason, I avoid PvP games as a general rule.

AS I seasoned gamer, I could not care less about PvP. I enjoy the content and the loot of any MMOG. I've said this more than once, why are we rewarding PvP and punishing PvE? 

I get enough PvP in real life.

 

 

 

lol well said!

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

7/08/13 12:42:18 PM#52
Originally posted by Waterlily

If they promote this game as a PVP game, it's dead out of the gate.

PVE players outnumber PVP players tenfold.

Some players like both, what category do they fall into? Good job at making up statistics though.

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

7/08/13 12:45:59 PM#53
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

People don't kill each other in the streets usually in "real life", or the consequences are very, very harsh, prison and sometimes death penalty (with perma-death of course...).

What the flawed PvP games forget is one important thing:

People are anonymous in the Internet, and therefore a good part of them will act like assholes if given the opportunity. PvP games are the perfect places for those sociopaths to hurt others without risk of repercussions. Games are virtual, there are no direct consequences for bad behavior like in "real life", when you die you can just press "play again" or even just resurrect and resume being an ass.

Additionally, they also forget players will exploit if they can, and while it usually has minimal consequences in PvE, in PvP it can ruin the game for other players.

Good PvP should have a purpose. War between guilds, factions. Having a game world full of psychopaths isn't good PvP, it's a gank fest. And that kind of badly designed PvP hurts the game for the players more than for those who don't play it, since less players means less funds, less funds means less updates, less content, less bug fixes, lesser quality.

And as I already said, there's actually not a single valid reason for not giving a PvE (with optional PvP) server set along with a PvP server set.

And yet there is eternal war on this planet. Maybe you should use that as a measuring stick instead of murder on the streets. A soldier faces no consequences when he kills an enemy soldier.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/08/13 12:47:32 PM#54


Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard People don't kill each other in the streets usually in "real life", or the consequences are very, very harsh, prison and sometimes death penalty (with perma-death of course...). What the flawed PvP games forget is one important thing: People are anonymous in the Internet, and therefore a good part of them will act like assholes if given the opportunity. PvP games are the perfect places for those sociopaths to hurt others without risk of repercussions. Games are virtual, there are no direct consequences for bad behavior like in "real life", when you die you can just press "play again" or even just resurrect and resume being an ass. Additionally, they also forget players will exploit if they can, and while it usually has minimal consequences in PvE, in PvP it can ruin the game for other players. Good PvP should have a purpose. War between guilds, factions. Having a game world full of psychopaths isn't good PvP, it's a gank fest. And that kind of badly designed PvP hurts the game for the players more than for those who don't play it, since less players means less funds, less funds means less updates, less content, less bug fixes, lesser quality. And as I already said, there's actually not a single valid reason for not giving a PvE (with optional PvP) server set along with a PvP server set.
And yet there is eternal war on this planet. Maybe you should use that as a measuring stick instead of murder on the streets. A soldier faces no consequences when he kills an enemy soldier.



Does that mean you're an advocate of Faction Based Battlegrounds Style PvP? That's not very sandboxy of you.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Zarriya

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 229

7/08/13 12:50:04 PM#55
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

People don't kill each other in the streets usually in "real life", or the consequences are very, very harsh, prison and sometimes death penalty (with perma-death of course...).

What the flawed PvP games forget is one important thing:

People are anonymous in the Internet, and therefore a good part of them will act like assholes if given the opportunity. PvP games are the perfect places for those sociopaths to hurt others without risk of repercussions. Games are virtual, there are no direct consequences for bad behavior like in "real life", when you die you can just press "play again" or even just resurrect and resume being an ass.

Additionally, they also forget players will exploit if they can, and while it usually has minimal consequences in PvE, in PvP it can ruin the game for other players.

Good PvP should have a purpose. War between guilds, factions. Having a game world full of psychopaths isn't good PvP, it's a gank fest. And that kind of badly designed PvP hurts the game for the players more than for those who don't play it, since less players means less funds, less funds means less updates, less content, less bug fixes, lesser quality.

And as I already said, there's actually not a single valid reason for not giving a PvE (with optional PvP) server set along with a PvP server set.

And yet there is eternal war on this planet. Maybe you should use that as a measuring stick instead of murder on the streets. A soldier faces no consequences when he kills an enemy soldier.

well then that would equate to warzones/battlefields in real life, and that could be incorporated into a game.  I live int he US in a cushy suburb.  I am fortunate to not have to deal with the violence that are in other parts of the world.  So it could be played out in a game that way.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/08/13 12:51:59 PM#56
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Adalwulff
Funny, I was just reading that thread.

 

We desperately need more PvP games, but they need to be more like DF:UW or EVE.

Doesn't mean we cant have good PvE, but there is no substitute for playing against another person. Playing against the computer in Raids or other grind fests, gets old real fast.




In a theme park, ya, that gets old quick. But we're talking about sandboxes. Sandboxes can encompass a lot of other game play that has nothing to do with PvP, and nothing to do with theme park staples, and is rewarding in itself.

The PvP thing has been tried and done to death. Maybe it's time for a PvE focused sandbox more along the lines of Minecraft than Call of Duty.

 

 Or Cubeworld, look at what this little 2 man game has done in the space of a few weeks.  The MMO world is ready for a PvE focused sandbox game so give me your tired and huddled masses.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/08/13 12:56:10 PM#57
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Waterlily

If they promote this game as a PVP game, it's dead out of the gate.

PVE players outnumber PVP players tenfold.

Some players like both, what category do they fall into? Good job at making up statistics though.

 He was being kind, its more like a thousand fold.  And this isn't make believe numbers.  There's no rationale human who can look at the MMO landscape and believe that PvP players outnumber PvE players.  Sure there are both but the genre is the, will always be the, loved by the: PvE crowd

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2874

There... are... four... lights!

7/08/13 12:58:45 PM#58
Originally posted by nerovipus32

A soldier faces no consequences when he kills an enemy soldier.

Any soldier on the field right now would laugh if he was reading this sentence. Including people who've been in the military, like me.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 508

7/08/13 1:05:09 PM#59
Originally posted by Raven322
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Funny, I was just reading that thread.

We desperately need more PvP games, but they need to be more like DF:UW or EVE.

Doesn't mean we cant have good PvE, but there is no substitute for playing against another person. Playing against the computer in Raids or other grind fests, gets old real fast.

 

You need more PvP games like EVE or DF?

Wait why aren't you playing DF or EVE then? Why do you need a third one?

My hyphotesis:

- EVE is a space mmo, where you are a ship.

-DF is a indie product, full of defects and without many sandbox tools.

 

I think he is after a AAA sandbox with a fantasy theme or near it.

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  User Deleted
7/08/13 1:05:52 PM#60
If it is a VR MMO then it can be PVE sandbox, until then no, it needs to have both pvp and pve.
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