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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We don't need anymore PvP focused sandbox mmos right now.

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677 posts found
  Waterlily

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Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2933

7/08/13 9:23:01 AM#21
  furbans

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Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 969

7/08/13 9:23:15 AM#22
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

All the successful sandbox MMORPGs are those who have well designed limitations to PvP, either 100% PvE servers (Ultima Online) or different levels of security (EvE). The PvP gank fest games like Darkfail and Mortal Online are tiny niche games with very small populations.

I'd bet real money that EQ Next will have PvE servers. SoE won't put forced PvP in such a big franchise game.

I wouldn't call EVE having limitations of PvP.  Sure you have high sec space but most if not the vast majority of content one has to leave high sec space.  It's like having to stick to the woods in Goldshire in WoW killing boars like in the South Park episode.

  kitarad

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Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1393

7/08/13 9:41:22 AM#23
Does avoiding bad design decisions mean not forcing PvP  or forcing PvP ?

  alloin

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Joined: 9/28/09
Posts: 96

7/08/13 9:50:25 AM#24

Originally posted by lizardbones


 Maybe it's time for a PvE focused sandbox more along the lines of Minecraft than Call of Duty.

Originally posted by Sajman01

Its not that I dont like PvP, its that MOBAs do it better. When I want that style of gameplay, I'll play Dota2.

Am I the only one laughing out loud when i read these things ?

  furbans

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Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 969

7/08/13 9:50:44 AM#25
Originally posted by kitarad
Does avoiding bad design decisions mean not forcing PvP  or forcing PvP ?

And let the speculation COMMENCE!!!!

Polls show that by far the majority don't want non-consensual PvP which leads one to believe that it will not be forced.  Or they will simpely have PvP and PvE servers so people can have the best of both worlds.

  Xssiv

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/18/10
Posts: 350

7/08/13 9:51:40 AM#26
Originally posted by keenber
What we need is anorther SWG as the PVP in that game didnt effect PVErs and was actually fun to watch PVPers fighting sometimes.

SWG's TEF system was fantastic!   I'm surprised more games didn't utilize something similar. 

  furbans

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Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 969

7/08/13 9:51:44 AM#27
Originally posted by alloin

Originally posted by lizardbones


 Maybe it's time for a PvE focused sandbox more along the lines of Minecraft than Call of Duty.

Originally posted by Sajman01

Its not that I dont like PvP, its that MOBAs do it better. When I want that style of gameplay, I'll play Dota2.

Am I the only one laughing out loud when i read these things ?

Probably.

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

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Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2900

There... are... four... lights!

7/08/13 9:54:43 AM#28
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

All the successful sandbox MMORPGs are those who have well designed limitations to PvP, either 100% PvE servers (Ultima Online) or different levels of security (EvE). The PvP gank fest games like Darkfail and Mortal Online are tiny niche games with very small populations.

I'd bet real money that EQ Next will have PvE servers. SoE won't put forced PvP in such a big franchise game.

I wouldn't call EVE having limitations of PvP.  Sure you have high sec space but most if not the vast majority of content one has to leave high sec space.  It's like having to stick to the woods in Goldshire in WoW killing boars like in the South Park episode.

What is very important is the first impression, and being able to learn the ropes without being body camped by some bored maxed out player, or rather, griefer. You can stay in high sec for as long as you want and only leave for less secure space when properly prepared. You can also stick to high sec when you don't feel like watching your back all the time and want to relax.

Darkfall and Mortal don't have that. Result... tiny niche populations.

Fact is the vast majority of player do not like 100% forced PvP. Without Trammel added, UO would have failed long ago.

I love PvP. I hate being forced into it before I'm ready. A soldier isn't sent on the battlefield before he gets some serious training either.

There is NO valid reason to force PvP on everyone, a good game will cater to both population with either different types of servers or strong mechanics which ensure all play styles can have their place in the world. And I have no doubt that the SoE guys aren't stupid and know where most of the money is... in the pockets of the PvE+optional PvP players.

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  Briansho

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7/08/13 9:57:49 AM#29
Where do you draw the line between whining and git gud? People want to PvP but they don't want to learn the game mechanics. Then they cry about PvP being broken and want the game changed to their lazy skill set.

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  Ataaka

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Joined: 4/01/08
Posts: 161

Anyone can act, just be yourself -aTaaka

7/08/13 10:10:43 AM#30

PvP... It has long been the natural transition from FPS (Consoles alike)  to MMOGs.

For this reason alone, I would say that a graduating class of gamers will leave the console for a more social need found mainly in MMOGs, coming in at a close second. Seasoned MMORPG players are tired of PvP because it is rarely dished-out in fairness to those who don't PvP. 

For that reason, I avoid PvP games as a general rule.

AS I seasoned gamer, I could not care less about PvP. I enjoy the content and the loot of any MMOG. I've said this more than once, why are we rewarding PvP and punishing PvE? 

I get enough PvP in real life.

 

 

 

  kjempff

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Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 778

Make worlds not stories

7/08/13 10:32:40 AM#31
Originally posted by Ataaka

I get enough PvP in real life.

Spot on.

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

7/08/13 10:37:51 AM#32
Originally posted by alloin

Originally posted by lizardbones


 Maybe it's time for a PvE focused sandbox more along the lines of Minecraft than Call of Duty.

Originally posted by Sajman01

Its not that I dont like PvP, its that MOBAs do it better. When I want that style of gameplay, I'll play Dota2.

Am I the only one laughing out loud when i read these things ?

No I'm sure there are lots of people who think RNG, stat based gear pvp is better than games that only rely on a players skill to win.

 

On topic I don' t think a pure pve based sandbox would have anywhere near the appeal a mixed pve/pvp mmo does. People may choose pve on a poll but I think given the choice the largest market in mmos is pve focused with casual pvp mixed in.

  SavageHorizon

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Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1580

7/08/13 10:49:24 AM#33
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Funny, I was just reading that thread.

We desperately need more PvP games, but they need to be more like DF:UW or EVE.

Doesn't mean we cant have good PvE, but there is no substitute for playing against another person. Playing against the computer in Raids or other grind fests, gets old real fast.

Desperately need more PVP games, really?

 

DFUW

EVE

ArcheAge

Age Of Wushu

TESO

Wurm Online

Black Gold

GW2

CU

Wild Star

Star Citizen

All of the above games have robust pvp systems which are not just an after though, i could add many more to the lists.

Seems you want it all

 

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  Mr_Mechanical

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Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 88

7/08/13 10:49:26 AM#34
Originally posted by Margulis
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Funny, I was just reading that thread.

We desperately need more PvP games, but they need to be more like DF:UW or EVE.

Doesn't mean we cant have good PvE, but there is no substitute for playing against another person. Playing against the computer in Raids or other grind fests, gets old real fast.

You want more PvP focused mmo's in general?  Ok, sure, that's fine with me.  But let's be fair, you've already got a bunch of sandbox PvP mmo's to choose from and us PvE gamers have basically zero.  So, in this regard (sandboxes) - we're way overdue for something to play.

The beauty of well-done multiplayer sandbox games is that the "focus" you speak of is molded by the community of said game.

In EVE, for example, if the status quo were to shift to industry, exploration, RP, etc, it would be considered such a game.   The developers put in the ground work, the wires, the backdrop, and gave tools.  The player forged themselves a PvP focused experience (market pvp, social pvp, political pvp, active pvp etc) --    

 

So, with this in mind, I say to you,  if you're playing a sandbox game, and don't want to PvP, then don't.     You're not forced to at all.   

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/08/13 10:53:25 AM#35


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by alloin

Originally posted by lizardbones  Maybe it's time for a PvE focused sandbox more along the lines of Minecraft than Call of Duty. Originally posted by Sajman01 Its not that I dont like PvP, its that MOBAs do it better. When I want that style of gameplay, I'll play Dota2.
Am I the only one laughing out loud when i read these things ?
No I'm sure there are lots of people who think RNG, stat based gear pvp is better than games that only rely on a players skill to win.

 

On topic I don' t think a pure pve based sandbox would have anywhere near the appeal a mixed pve/pvp mmo does. People may choose pve on a poll but I think given the choice the largest market in mmos is pve focused with casual pvp mixed in.




That's actually what the polls say. Pure PvE outranks Pure PvE, but PvE focused with PvP gets the most votes with a 50/50 mix running an extremely close second.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

7/08/13 10:54:07 AM#36
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Funny, I was just reading that thread.

We desperately need more PvP games, but they need to be more like DF:UW or EVE.

Doesn't mean we cant have good PvE, but there is no substitute for playing against another person. Playing against the computer in Raids or other grind fests, gets old real fast.

Desperately need more PVP games, really?

 

DFUW

EVE

ArcheAge

Age Of Wushu

TESO

Wurm Online

Black Gold

GW2

CU

Wild Star

Star Citizen

All of the above games have robust pvp systems which are not just an after though, i could add many more to the lists.

Seems you want it all

 

And  a few in development as well with The Repopulation, Pathfinder Online. There was one that I think ice-vortex linked too that looked really interesting with open world PvP in it in development. I'll have to check on that again.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

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  StarI

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 842

7/08/13 10:54:07 AM#37
Originally posted by Margulis

There's a lot of debate on the Everquest Next forums about whether the game is going to be heavily PvP focused or not and most of this has stemmed from some comments from Smed  that have insinuated a heavy PvP focus of the game.  To what extent that focus is we won't know until the reveal, but still, it makes me think to myself why even think about going that route?  Pretty much every bigger name sandbox currently available (Darkfall, EVE, Mortal Online, etc) and coming down the pipeline (Archeage, The Repopulation) is PvP focused.  Do we seriously need another one like that?  It's pretty well known PvE focused gamers greatly outnumber PvP focused ones, so why continually churn out games for a niche market while that same market is devoid of products for the bigger (PvE)  population?  Makes no sense........ 

 

not sure if t******* or r******... Market is literally flooded with PvE games. There is not a single high quality sandbox pvp based game out there, bar EvE who has rather unique setting (space and ships).

If anything it's about time we fucking get one.

  lizardbones

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Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/08/13 10:59:02 AM#38


Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by Margulis There's a lot of debate on the Everquest Next forums about whether the game is going to be heavily PvP focused or not and most of this has stemmed from some comments from Smed  that have insinuated a heavy PvP focus of the game.  To what extent that focus is we won't know until the reveal, but still, it makes me think to myself why even think about going that route?  Pretty much every bigger name sandbox currently available (Darkfall, EVE, Mortal Online, etc) and coming down the pipeline (Archeage, The Repopulation) is PvP focused.  Do we seriously need another one like that?  It's pretty well known PvE focused gamers greatly outnumber PvP focused ones, so why continually churn out games for a niche market while that same market is devoid of products for the bigger (PvE)  population?  Makes no sense........ 
 

not sure if t******* or r******... Market is literally flooded with PvE games. There is not a single high quality sandbox pvp based game out there, bar EvE who has rather unique setting (space and ships).

If anything it's about time we f*cking get one.




There are zero PvE based sandbox MMORPG out there, and more people are interested in PvE. Seems like the odds are more in favor of a PvE sandbox with PvP elements rather than the other way around.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  StarI

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 842

7/08/13 11:12:28 AM#39
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by StarI

Originally posted by Margulis There's a lot of debate on the Everquest Next forums about whether the game is going to be heavily PvP focused or not and most of this has stemmed from some comments from Smed  that have insinuated a heavy PvP focus of the game.  To what extent that focus is we won't know until the reveal, but still, it makes me think to myself why even think about going that route?  Pretty much every bigger name sandbox currently available (Darkfall, EVE, Mortal Online, etc) and coming down the pipeline (Archeage, The Repopulation) is PvP focused.  Do we seriously need another one like that?  It's pretty well known PvE focused gamers greatly outnumber PvP focused ones, so why continually churn out games for a niche market while that same market is devoid of products for the bigger (PvE)  population?  Makes no sense........ 
 

 

not sure if t******* or r******... Market is literally flooded with PvE games. There is not a single high quality sandbox pvp based game out there, bar EvE who has rather unique setting (space and ships).

If anything it's about time we f*cking get one.




There are zero PvE based sandbox MMORPG out there, and more people are interested in PvE. Seems like the odds are more in favor of a PvE sandbox with PvP elements rather than the other way around.

 

 

Honestly, for me there's no such thing as PvE sandbox. What you guys call PvE sandbox  for me = a themepark game with gazillion of fluff. One of the defining traits for a real sandbox is an open world where you are not baby-sitted by developers and a number of social restrictions, but instead have to live in a world where social interaction actually has consequences which go beyond raging in a chat, denieing somone a dungeon run or pressing an ignore button.

  Mr_Mechanical

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 88

7/08/13 11:51:11 AM#40
Originally posted by StarI
Originally posted by lizardbones

*snip*

Honestly, for me there's no such thing as PvE sandbox. What you guys call PvE sandbox  for me = a themepark game with gazillion of fluff. One of the defining traits for a real sandbox is an open world where you are not baby-sitted by developers and a number of social restrictions, but instead have to live in a world where social interaction actually has consequences which go beyond raging in a chat, denieing somone a dungeon run or pressing an ignore button.

Even though I would have chosen a different approach/attitude when presenting this view, in general, I agree with you.

The term "PVE-SANDBOX" is kind of strange, considering what makes a sandbox first and foremost, regardless of who you ask, is FREEDOM of choice.    FREEDOM to choose how you play, and typically the tools available to make that choice substantiate.

I think people that want a "PVE-SANDBOX" really should step back a second and maybe ask themselves if perhaps what they want is other people that are playing in the sandbox with them to stop choosing to PvP.    No actual sandbox game forces anyone to fight anyone else.    When people are given the freedom to choose "killing someone else" or "ruining someone else's attempt at X", they choose it.       It's not dev fault for not locking out PvP in their sandboxes.  It's humanity's fault for being destructive, competitive, cruel beings.

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