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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Anyone else find the combat lacking?

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107 posts found
  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1525

7/06/13 9:56:44 PM#41

I just can't go back to tab target, I think your on the same boat as me.  

 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR, DESTINY

  simsalabim77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 617

7/06/13 9:57:10 PM#42
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by Impulse47
First and foremost, I am an oldschool Final Fantasy nerd.  When I heard the prologue music for this game I nearly burst into actual tears of nostalgia.  I -want- to like and play this game.  That being said, recently I have played TERA, Guild Wars 2, and DCUO, to name a few MMOs.  So I've rolled an Archer in FF14, and it is by far the most bland combat I've experienced in years.  It feels like a huge step backwards from other modern titles.  Is there really no active dodging?  I can shoot an arrow through a crowd of mobs and it will hit my tabbed target way in the back?  Combat so far is peg target and kite in circles mashing 1 and occasionally other skills.  Does combat ever get better, or even compare to these other games?

How many buttons do you hit at level 10 in TERA?

in Wow?

or what ever other game you are comparing this game to.

1-4 buttons?

This game has the same amount.

I've played  TERA, GW2, and their combat systems are quite similar. 

I don't understand why people play new games and then try to compare level 1-20 to level 50-90 on whatever game they were playing, but that seems to happen all the time...

 

By level 20 in XIV you are 40% of the way to cap. Just so someone doesn't jump down my throat; I don't mean in terms of experience, but in terms of skill progression for a single job. Lancer, for example, has eight abilities and four or five passive traits by 20. I don't remember how many cross-class abilities you get at 20, but I'm pretty sure it's not more than four or so. So, to recap we have eight abilities plus four (give or take) from another job, and four passive skills by level 20(40% of the way to cap) in FFXIV:ARR. 

 

To contrast, a level 50 (55% of the way to cap) Shaman in WoW has 27 base abilities and three passive abilities. There are three specs. One adds, two new abilities and 10 passives. The second spec adds four abilities and six passives. The third adds six abilities and seven passives. On top of that there are three talent points with a total of nine choices and a bunch(15+) of glyphs to choose from. 

 

ARR just does not offer a very deep and/or complex combat system for someone to sink their teeth into which is fine, but let's not try to put lipstick on a pig. 

At level 50 (level cap right now in ARR) you have 27 abilities as any given job.

That is far more than you probably will actually need.

Lets look at my Paladin on WoW and check out how many abilities it has that are rarely if ever used... quite a few...

My point isn't that 'oh wow this game has A LOT of skills'.  My point was it has enough to do what it needs, which is create a compelling combat system.

 

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3388

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 9:58:18 PM#43
Originally posted by simsalabim77

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

What did you find boring about it?

The GCD being too long?

You don't like tab targeting any more?

I'm just wondering, its hard to have a discussion when the only things given to discuss are 'I think its boring'

 

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4757

7/06/13 9:59:11 PM#44
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by Impulse47
First and foremost, I am an oldschool Final Fantasy nerd.  When I heard the prologue music for this game I nearly burst into actual tears of nostalgia.  I -want- to like and play this game.  That being said, recently I have played TERA, Guild Wars 2, and DCUO, to name a few MMOs.  So I've rolled an Archer in FF14, and it is by far the most bland combat I've experienced in years.  It feels like a huge step backwards from other modern titles.  Is there really no active dodging?  I can shoot an arrow through a crowd of mobs and it will hit my tabbed target way in the back?  Combat so far is peg target and kite in circles mashing 1 and occasionally other skills.  Does combat ever get better, or even compare to these other games?

How many buttons do you hit at level 10 in TERA?

in Wow?

or what ever other game you are comparing this game to.

1-4 buttons?

This game has the same amount.

I've played  TERA, GW2, and their combat systems are quite similar. 

I don't understand why people play new games and then try to compare level 1-20 to level 50-90 on whatever game they were playing, but that seems to happen all the time...

 

By level 20 in XIV you are 40% of the way to cap. Just so someone doesn't jump down my throat; I don't mean in terms of experience, but in terms of skill progression for a single job. Lancer, for example, has eight abilities and four or five passive traits by 20. I don't remember how many cross-class abilities you get at 20, but I'm pretty sure it's not more than four or so. So, to recap we have eight abilities plus four (give or take) from another job, and four passive skills by level 20(40% of the way to cap) in FFXIV:ARR. 

 

To contrast, a level 50 (55% of the way to cap) Shaman in WoW has 27 base abilities and three passive abilities. There are three specs. One adds, two new abilities and 10 passives. The second spec adds four abilities and six passives. The third adds six abilities and seven passives. On top of that there are three talent points with a total of nine choices and a bunch(15+) of glyphs to choose from. 

 

ARR just does not offer a very deep and/or complex combat system for someone to sink their teeth into which is fine, but let's not try to put lipstick on a pig. 

At level 50 (level cap right now in ARR) you have 27 abilities as any given job.

That is far more than you probably will actually need.

Lets look at my Paladin on WoW and check out how many abilities it has that are rarely if ever used... quite a few...

My point isn't that 'oh wow this game has A LOT of skills'.  My point was it has enough to do what it needs, which is create a compelling combat system.

... except the number of skills does not equal a compelling combat system. It certain can help, but it's all about the complexity of the combat mechanics that determines whether or not it's compelling or not. Not the number of skills. WoW is a good example of this (as it has a ton of skills, but many of them are redundant, or function more or less the same).

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3388

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:01:57 PM#45
Originally posted by aesperus

... except the number of skills does not equal a compelling combat system. It certain can help, but it's all about the complexity of the combat mechanics that determines whether or not it's compelling or not. Not the number of skills. WoW is a good example of this (as it has a ton of skills, but many of them are redundant, or function more or less the same).

I agree, didn't say it was, my point was you need a few skills at least to make a compelling system.  This game has a variety of skills, I feel the number you are expected to know / learn / master at high level is a rather good number.

 

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4190

7/06/13 10:04:12 PM#46
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

Your comparison with XIV and WoW is not fair at all since your comparing a mmo with raised level cap after several expansion to something thats only about to be released.  You gotta compare it to vanilla WoW when the cap was 60 and mid level was a level 30 character.

  jabhamano

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/13
Posts: 18

7/06/13 10:06:31 PM#47

archer being too simple ? :-) its most complex combat style in game so far. i played all classes and its offensive how easy, plain and simple they are. 

Lets call things as they are. this combat system is plain, simple and boring. Way too easy. 

Target-lock system can be fun, interesting and challenging to play, but only if there is really alot of skills to choose from. So you can work on your personal skill as player of controlling your character to its fullest potential. So In games like that comes in mind human skill factor besides being geared or not.  In ff14 you have only few skills at max class level and half of them has really long cooldowns. So every class gameplay looks like 1,2,3,4 again 1,2,3,4,, or 1,2,3 , 1 ,2,4, 1 ,2 ,3 ... you have the idea.

in free target combat games like tera, you might be using relatively same amount of skills as in ff14, but at least there you have to position yourself all the time, and use at right moment those abilities which makes you either avoid or block attacks which would kill you with single hit. Target lock with very limited amount of skills cant be compared to this kind of gameplay at all. I dont know why some people are trying to set them as equal. Bad taste comparison.

  simsalabim77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 617

7/06/13 10:08:36 PM#48
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

What did you find boring about it?

The GCD being too long?

You don't like tab targeting any more?

I'm just wondering, its hard to have a discussion when the only things given to discuss are 'I think its boring'

 

 

The GCD does feel way too long to me. I don' t need almost 3 seconds between abilities. I don't think very many people actually do unless they're playing one handed while a cat blocks the monitor or something. It feels extremely sluggish. 

It is mechanically uninteresting to me. For instance, it lacks interesting interplay between skills IMO. There aren't very many skill resets, or counters to care about, DOT clipping, buff duration, buff potency etc. There aren't any "clutch" skills like BOP, LOH, throwing a powerful offheal to save a wipe etc. It pretty much boils down to pressing the few buttons that do the most damage while pre-buffing before your most damaging skill. 

I'd like to see way more situation skills that you found you never used on your Pally like some of the Hands or macroing on a shield, using RF and taunting a raid boss at 1% after the main tank died. There's just no skills in ARR that make me think, "How can I use this in an interesting way?" 

 

Now, please don't mistake this as me saying the game is bad, as I enjoy nearly every aspect besides the combat. 

  Odinthedark1

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 338

"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

7/06/13 10:10:48 PM#49
its not "Action packed" but the basic mmo combat, nothing wrong with the classic combat either i actually prefer over to hybrid garbage stuff like gw2, neverwinter, etc...but thats my opinion. I love the game so far but the start is so very slow paced i refuse to get into it till OB when we keep our chars....i could go on about all the things i love about the game, but in short i find the classic combat to be fun and have nothing against.
  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3388

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:10:56 PM#50
Originally posted by jabhamano

archer being too simple ? :-) its most complex combat style in game so far. i played all classes and its offensive how easy, plain and simple they are. 

Lets call things as they are. this combat system is plain, simple and boring. Way too easy. 

Target-lock system can be fun, interesting and challenging to play, but only if there is really alot of skills to choose from. So you can work on your personal skill as player of controlling your character to its fullest potential. So In games like that comes in mind human skill factor besides being geared or not.  In ff14 you have only few skills at max class level and half of them has really long cooldowns. So every class gameplay looks like 1,2,3,4 again 1,2,3,4,, or 1,2,3 , 1 ,2,4, 1 ,2 ,3 ... you have the idea.

in free target combat games like tera, you might be using relatively same amount of skills as in ff14, but at least there you have to position yourself all the time, and use at right moment those abilities which makes you either avoid or block attacks which would kill you with single hit. Target lock with very limited amount of skills cant be compared to this kind of gameplay at all. I dont know why some people are trying to set them as equal. Bad taste comparison.

Ok, so you don't like FFXIV because it has tab targeting.  (I love TERA, played 3 toons to level cap, fun game)  This game is tab target, and if you don't like that type of game then I completely understand why you don't like FFXIV.

Don't pretend though that in TERA you don't just hit 1 2 3 4 a lot too...  There are plenty of times when bosses sit still long enough for you to repeatedly do the same combo several times to it.

And to be honest this game's healing is VERY similar to TERA's (at least as a mystic) I had a very limited number of healing spells and I mostly ran around casting the same hand full of spells with a few situational abilities to help keep the party up in emergencies.

There are a lot of skills in 14 that require timing, and there are lots of reactionary abilities, just like most mmos these days.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4190

7/06/13 10:11:07 PM#51
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

The GCD does feel way too long to me.

You do get gear that lowers GCD as you progress

  simsalabim77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 617

7/06/13 10:12:59 PM#52
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

Your comparison with XIV and WoW is not fair at all since your comparing a mmo with raised level cap after several expansion to something thats only about to be released.  You gotta compare it to vanilla WoW when the cap was 60 and mid level was a level 30 character.

 

In case of double post, I apologize. 

 

Comparing Vanilla WoW to ARR would not be a fair comparison either as the designers of ARR will have had nearly a decade worth of examples to look at while the designers of Vanilla WoW did not have nearly the amount of experience, technology, and games to study for inspiration. I expect ARR to have 2013 combat mechanics. Not combat mechanics from 2004. 

  Chuckanar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/05/04
Posts: 190

7/06/13 10:17:03 PM#53
No I dont.. but then I find the game great for the fact that they expect you to play the game and work your way up to more advanced combat. If you want your cake at the beginning go play wow I hear it is a cakewalk now.
  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3388

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:17:21 PM#54
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

What did you find boring about it?

The GCD being too long?

You don't like tab targeting any more?

I'm just wondering, its hard to have a discussion when the only things given to discuss are 'I think its boring'

 

 

The GCD does feel way too long to me. I don' t need almost 3 seconds between abilities. I don't think very many people actually do unless they're playing one handed while a cat blocks the monitor or something. It feels extremely sluggish.   I agree, the GCD is too long for my taste too, I hope they shorten it to 2 or 1.5 seconds.

It is mechanically uninteresting to me. For instance, it lacks interesting interplay between skills IMO. There aren't very many skill resets, or counters to care about, DOT clipping, buff duration, buff potency etc. There aren't any "clutch" skills like BOP, LOH, throwing a powerful offheal to save a wipe etc. It pretty much boils down to pressing the few buttons that do the most damage while pre-buffing before your most damaging skill. White mage gets Benediction, its very much like Lay on Hands but for the entire party, it can get you killed though as it pulls a lot of threat. There is dot clipping, there are even some dots you can stack, for instance Aero 1 and Aero 2 put separate dots on the target.  Buff duration is much like WoW, most of them last 30 minutes.  Buff's do get more potent if you have more of the right stat for the buff spell / ability.  You CAN off heal as a lot of classes, but not as a lot of jobs.

I'd like to see way more situation skills that you found you never used on your Pally like some of the Hands or macroing on a shield, using RF and taunting a raid boss at 1% after the main tank died. There's just no skills in ARR that make me think, "How can I use this in an interesting way?"  Paladin has several interrupts and stuns, they have reactionary tanking cool downs.  A lot of jobs have skills that are reaction based, stuns, interrupts, debuffs of a wide variety.  Black mage for instance gets a spell much like 'intervene' for WoW's warrior.  Pretty cool ability that can be used to save yourself and avoid dying.

 

Now, please don't mistake this as me saying the game is bad, as I enjoy nearly every aspect besides the combat.  I don't think its bad either, I agree the combat could use some work, though I do think some of the issues are solved at higher level.

 

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3388

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:19:41 PM#55
Originally posted by simsalabim77

In case of double post, I apologize. 

 

Comparing Vanilla WoW to ARR would not be a fair comparison either as the designers of ARR will have had nearly a decade worth of examples to look at while the designers of Vanilla WoW did not have nearly the amount of experience, technology, and games to study for inspiration. I expect ARR to have 2013 combat mechanics. Not combat mechanics from 2004. 

Combat mechanics from 2013?  Like monsters having moves with big red circles you have to run out of, like how WoW, TERA, and Neverwinter do?  Yep ARR has that.

There are quite a few 'advanced' fight mechanics to behold in this game, go watch the Ifrit fight that they did at E3, they streamed it for all to watch, very rarely did a group kill it, and that is the 'baby' level 20 version.

 

  jabhamano

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/13
Posts: 18

7/06/13 10:21:42 PM#56
Originally posted by Laughing-man

Ok, so you don't like FFXIV because it has tab targeting.  (I love TERA, played 3 toons to level cap, fun game)  This game is tab target, and if you don't like that type of game then I completely understand why you don't like FFXIV.

 

I dont say that i dont like target-lock system. Its good only when there is some aspect of player skill with it.

When you have tons of skills like in WoW or in Aion then you can either suck at your class, or be good at it by controlling it to its fullest potential. I played Aion for really long time so i cant say that i dont like target-lock. I like it only when its well made.

Tera has few skills just like ff14, but at least its free target game, so human-skill factor goes to your extremely important timing and positioning. Even if you can find some similar skills from free-target game in target-lock game, you cant deny fact that solo killing single elite/bam in tera is way more difficult than every single combat aspect of ff14 combined all together.

  Braindome

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/06/11
Posts: 571

7/06/13 10:22:39 PM#57
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

Your comparison with XIV and WoW is not fair at all since your comparing a mmo with raised level cap after several expansion to something thats only about to be released.  You gotta compare it to vanilla WoW when the cap was 60 and mid level was a level 30 character.

 

In case of double post, I apologize. 

 

Comparing Vanilla WoW to ARR would not be a fair comparison either as the designers of ARR will have had nearly a decade worth of examples to look at while the designers of Vanilla WoW did not have nearly the amount of experience, technology, and games to study for inspiration. I expect ARR to have 2013 combat mechanics. Not combat mechanics from 2004. 

Seriously how is constantly complaining about that you do not like the combat in any way constructive?

The game is designed the way it is, they are not going to revamp the whole combat system and complaining about it is just nonsense, you are only prolonging your misery obviously if you don't like it then quit posting here and quit playing the game, what do expect to accomplish?

The combat is designed with a "lite" dodge/kite mechanic cause the game is not going to be 100% soloable. FFXIV: ARR is designed to promote group play, is something wrong with that? It is an MMO after all. All the players that keep complaining about this issue are doing nothing for the community and that is the point.

If you don't like it then quit playing, problem solved, they aren't going to rework the whole game cause you don't like or imo "don't understand" at this point. It is designed for their fanbase which you obviously are not part of, it is designed to bring people together in combat which some people consider magical.

If you don't like it go play something else.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

7/06/13 10:22:43 PM#58
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

Comparing Vanilla WoW to ARR would not be a fair comparison either as the designers of ARR will have had nearly a decade worth of examples to look at while the designers of Vanilla WoW did not have nearly the amount of experience, technology, and games to study for inspiration. I expect ARR to have 2013 combat mechanics. Not combat mechanics from 2004. 

Some people are clueless.  Action combat is not evolution, its just different.  It is a subgenre, or you could call it a niche.  Its definitely not superior or advanced, just different.  Some people like apples, others like oranges.

It doesnt have 2004 combat.  it doesnt have 2013 combat.  these things don't exist.  it has Final Fantasy flavored combat though, with its TP and limit breaks.

 

  PulsarMan

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/09
Posts: 202

7/06/13 10:23:18 PM#59
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by PulsarMan
I enjoy it for what it is. I do hope they add a bit more diversity with the limit breaks. Or something similar to skill chains. 

On the flip side, what do you enjoy about it?

I myself think it's combat is pretty standard, which I don't think is a bad thing.  It mimics a lot of other game's combat systems and yet comes up with its own mixture of things.

It has combos, it has a lot of the standard fare in MMOs, like global cool down based attacks, auto attacks, it seems like it doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, just polish it.  Which I like that mentality.

I would agree. It's standard mmo combat. Which I'm fine with so long as it's well done. I like the combo's for the Monk, and the positioning for the lancer. I enjoy that each class has it's own flavor. (Or seems to...as I've stopped playing so I can save something for OB) 

 

They're delivering a traditional mmo, with many of the standards that come with mmo's today. The good part? They seem to be doing most of them well! Far better than I even thought they would. I tend to take the view that if they build a strong foundation, they can focus on expanding, as opposed to fixing the things that should already work. 

 

 

  Impulse47

Novice Member

Joined: 12/20/03
Posts: 167

Banned

 
OP  7/06/13 10:23:52 PM#60
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77

In case of double post, I apologize. 

 

Comparing Vanilla WoW to ARR would not be a fair comparison either as the designers of ARR will have had nearly a decade worth of examples to look at while the designers of Vanilla WoW did not have nearly the amount of experience, technology, and games to study for inspiration. I expect ARR to have 2013 combat mechanics. Not combat mechanics from 2004. 

Combat mechanics from 2013?  Like monsters having moves with big red circles you have to run out of, like how WoW, TERA, and Neverwinter do?  Yep ARR has that.

There are quite a few 'advanced' fight mechanics to behold in this game, go watch the Ifrit fight that they did at E3, they streamed it for all to watch, very rarely did a group kill it, and that is the 'baby' level 20 version.

 

That's interesting that you would mention the Ifrit fight that way.  As a fellow TERA player, I didn't think that fight compared even to the very first Basilisk or Naga encounter.  I know you like when people quantify their reasoning, and I will tell you in advance that I cannot.  It just seemed a bit boring compared to our (pre-patch) BAMs.

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