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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Up to 90% of MMO Real Estate is Wasted

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169 posts found
  Zeblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/06
Posts: 936

7/07/13 4:47:20 AM#121

For me this is like going to a party and saying "we need more beer".. yet the partys been over for hours.

Add more take some away wont change a thing. Need a new mmo thats different and so far none of us have a clue what that might be. People keep changing the graphics yet model is the same.

  blohm86

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 47

7/07/13 4:50:25 AM#122

Weird editorial, what I dont get is why cant the dev´s use randomised terrain? Setup some parameters like monsters level, quest levels etc and let the computers do the building for em? Like Diablo, Cube World etc. If they want to make it truly dynamic, why not re-randomise the world ever say.... 3months? People keep their gear etc but have to explore "new areas". Have some new content ready so new stuff happens? That means if you have 3-4 shards, you get equal amounts of uniqe areas, then an "explorer" class actually might mean something other then using rifles and having pets.

Anyway, probably not possible due to the devs lack of innovation these days, mostly copy-paste, noone every dares anything new. The creativity is lost. Shame on these websites encouraging and hyping mediocre games and "casualising" gaming. Shame on you

  sunshadow21

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

7/07/13 5:07:19 AM#123
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 

Im sorry but this mob scaling thing fails miserably.  It is NOT a good system.  Part of playing ANY rpg. MMO or not is the feeling of your character getting more powerful.  If when you enter and old zone the mobs are just as hard as the new zone then, all of a sudden it becomes both stupid, and pointless to go to new zones.  Why should i travel to a new a place when i can just stay in the same area and kill the same mobs whose spawns i know and tricks i know and get the same XP?

Oblivion had one of the most universally hated systems and it was pretty much as Mark Kern described.

The solution is much simpler.  Do what EQ did.  Have high level mobs the run around the zone that low level players have to be weary of.  And stop making every zone only encompass a certain level range.  There is no reason a section deep in the zone can't have level 30 mobs in it if its normall a 1-10 zone.  So what if 10% of the zone is used for higher level mobs.  Its gives people a reason to come back.  I used to go back and kill Kizdean Gix in west commonlands in EQ1 just for shits n gigiles, help out the n00bs, whatever reason i wanted ot.

Guess what you can also do.  Attach higher level dungeons to the lower level zones!  Holy crap the thought!.  Yes, amazing, a level 1-10 zone could easily have a set of goblin caves filled with mid 20's goblins, Who woulda thunk it.

 

Sounds like Final Fantasy XI to me. Multiple levels of mobs, dungeon entrances, and well spaced out quest objectives that kept people coming back to the same zones over and over again, all without any fancy dynamic events or overly complex coding, just a good solid plan of how everything was laid out to get the maximum benefit of everything while still retaining largely static coding.

  alvasten

Novice Member

Joined: 12/20/04
Posts: 16

7/07/13 5:13:00 AM#124
well thanks for the ad blocking the article, I can see I will not be able to read it.
  Fdzzaigl

Elite Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 2047

7/07/13 6:50:37 AM#125

I do completely agree with the author on this. I'm not sure that Firefall is doing it the right way, but there need to be new ideas out there that integrate the entire world into the whole progression scene, and stay relevant after that.

That's also an important factor: the progression itself needs to change. Though you don't necessarily need to get rid of levels altogether.

Guild Wars 2 had an interesting idea for that by down-leveling players when they came to lower level zones, except the incentives still weren't there enough. Having traditional MMO's change to this kind of concept and expand on it would be a start imo. A game like TOR for example would have really benefitted from down-leveling with scaling rewards.

Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  dorugu

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/06/03
Posts: 134

7/07/13 6:56:42 AM#126

well all i have to say is that you say yur game is so much better at doin things rly can yu prove tht?

i thought it was up to the player to decide if a game is good/bad not the makers of the game

 

  Sharess

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/29/09
Posts: 236

7/07/13 8:33:29 AM#127
Meridian 59 which predates UO had no tutorial, nor did UO for that matter.
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7194

7/07/13 8:41:46 AM#128

Games with hard levels are outdated. 

 

In Wushu, within the first couple hours of the game you can go anywhere, and hit anything.

 

The mobs are not tough, they drop no loot, and give no XP. They're part of a larger unwritten story, not grinding, filler content. 

 

 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  tokini

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 345

7/07/13 8:55:40 AM#129
tutorial in my first mmo was old ascalon, spent an hour trying to get back to it after the 'searing' part of the story (GW1)
  Giffen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/28/04
Posts: 220

7/07/13 9:29:16 AM#130
Originally posted by John_Grimm
Well, i know one game that is like that, Eve Online, most of its space can be used by any lvl char.  :D

That's because EVE has no levels.  Wasted "zones" are an attribute of level base games.  UO and EVE are two that did not have this issue because they did not have levels.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7194

7/07/13 9:38:59 AM#131
Originally posted by Giffen
Originally posted by John_Grimm
Well, i know one game that is like that, Eve Online, most of its space can be used by any lvl char.  :D

That's because EVE has no levels.  Wasted "zones" are an attribute of level base games.  UO and EVE are two that did not have this issue because they did not have levels.

 

and Wushu

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1869

7/07/13 10:21:42 AM#132

Wasted ?

One could say that about the movie that cost over $100 million to make that you just watched ... or the television series you just finished watching.

  troublmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/11
Posts: 340

7/07/13 10:56:51 AM#133
Originally posted by Timassin
Do mid level mmos really cost a 100 million to make? How do indie devs do it on an incredibly lower budget and better most of time?

The "indie" devs you're talking about are not that indie.

The first few MMOs were costing about $1M to make.  Because they were the first ones in the door they could avoid the massive bills.

But these days a modern MMO costs millions to make to get those shiny graphics and giant zones.  Consider for a second that a developer will be expecting a six figure salary to physically move to your studio and work for your MMO.  The more people you need to transfer to your physical studio the higher the cost of making an MMO will cost.

Richard Garriot crowdfunded $2M to make an RPG.  It's suspected he'll spend even more on that.

As for the article the presumption that traditional leveling zones are wasted is a bit of a mistake.  People don't just make one character in an MMORPG they enjoy, they make many more.  One of the things people do in MMOs is revisit zones they were previously in.

The reason why areas were zoned was so that people of equal progression would play together.  By congesting everyone into constantly revisiting the same zones all you do is lead to gear dominance and ganking of newer players.  It leads to an overall poor experience.

I hope the people at Red 5 Studios are smart enough to know that people of similar progression levels ought to be grouped together.

Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker

  tordurbar

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/10
Posts: 398

7/07/13 11:38:25 AM#134
Seems the OP forgets about Guild Wars 2. You are downleveled to the level of the zone that you move in to. At first I hated this. There is nothing more humiliating then being killed by level 3 mobs when you are a level 20 toon! But, as I played more I realized that there were some zones that I liked more than others. I could and did spend more time there leveling (although slowly) rather than in the higher level zones. In hindsight, I think that this was a brilliant idea. There is no wasted space - every zone can be used to level.
  ragz45

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 482

7/07/13 11:46:21 AM#135

Or go back to our roots, where zones were not gated content.  EQ1 for example had mobs from level 1-40 in butcherblock mts.  Yes if you ran into that level 40 mob and agroed them as a level 2 you died... fast.

But that just added a level of excitement to the game.  Once dev's stop following the "WOW formula" of gated zone content and world design, the genre may move forward.  

  Lateris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/05
Posts: 1799

~perspective~

7/07/13 11:47:54 AM#136

It’s going to take a lot of work to accomplish this, but it’s imperative that we do. It’s simply gotten too expensive and too wasteful to keep making virtual worlds in a throwaway zone mentality. The cost of failure is too high.

I have to agree on this. 

  kjempff

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 684

Make worlds not stories

7/07/13 12:18:19 PM#137
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 

Im sorry but this mob scaling thing fails miserably.  It is NOT a good system.  Part of playing ANY rpg. MMO or not is the feeling of your character getting more powerful.  If when you enter and old zone the mobs are just as hard as the new zone then, all of a sudden it becomes both stupid, and pointless to go to new zones.  Why should i travel to a new a place when i can just stay in the same area and kill the same mobs whose spawns i know and tricks i know and get the same XP?

Oblivion had one of the most universally hated systems and it was pretty much as Mark Kern described.

The solution is much simpler.  Do what EQ did.  Have high level mobs the run around the zone that low level players have to be weary of.  And stop making every zone only encompass a certain level range.  There is no reason a section deep in the zone can't have level 30 mobs in it if its normall a 1-10 zone.  So what if 10% of the zone is used for higher level mobs.  Its gives people a reason to come back.  I used to go back and kill Kizdean Gix in west commonlands in EQ1 just for shits n gigiles, help out the n00bs, whatever reason i wanted ot.

Guess what you can also do.  Attach higher level dungeons to the lower level zones!  Holy crap the thought!.  Yes, amazing, a level 1-10 zone could easily have a set of goblin caves filled with mid 20's goblins, Who woulda thunk it.

 

Don't think I could have written it better. Horizontal progressing system may be a great idea in other types of games for example map/lobby based games, but reusing zones like that kills the rpg part of a game. The downlevelling as gw2 present it showed this problem perfectly. Using downlevelling should be used with great thought if used at all.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

7/07/13 12:56:50 PM#138
You need look no further than the original EQ to see that this is pretty much true...WHile there are literally hundreds of zones, the players generally only go to about 10 percent of them if that......Once games started using instancing and quick travel it ruined alot of what the devs were trying to do with MMOs......Most of hte PVP games became battleground instances instead of open world PVP, and PVE games became instanced dungeons where players would run the same ones over and over.
  colin205441

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/12
Posts: 1

7/07/13 1:08:53 PM#139
This reminds me of when I used to play Runescape years back. I think they actually did a pretty good job with having zones that people would revisit. Of course there were still many places that you would only go once and never visit again, and quite a lot of them, but there were a good many towns and resource locations that would have people comming back regardless of their level. At least a lot more than other games I have played. They were able to do this beacuse these spots would either have something unique there or would have more content opened up as you gained levels. They also did something like reusing areas, adding dungeons, npcs, buildings, etc, to already existing locations when adding new content. 
  quotheraving

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 278

7/07/13 2:15:44 PM#140
Originally posted by grogstorm

I think if MMO's switch to a horizontal progression mechanics verses their current vertical systems then all zones can remain alive and offer challenges to all players.  Just to be clear, in a horizontal system a player gets more skills as he progresses through the word where the player in the vertical system gets upgrades to current skills.


So a player who is new would have the same fireball skill as a player who has played the game for 5 years and they would both find some challenge in killing a bunny in the starting zone.  But the older player may have decided to skill up their sword the last time they were in this area but now they want to work on their magic skills.


And in a good horizontal system the older player may be only marginally stronger than the new character due to upgraded armor and skill synergies.


And now we can live in worlds where the dev's don't have to create an entirely new zone for each rung of the vertical system but instead thoroughly enjoy the entire world with people of all skill levels.

Well said sir, well said! 

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