Trending Games | Landmark | Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade | Star Citizen | Guild Wars 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,920,277 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,311,209
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the bad retention rate that new MMOs suffer from upon launch really new?

2 Pages 1 2 » Search
21 posts found
  ozmono

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1045

 
OP  7/04/13 7:06:11 AM#1

Some people like to predict doom and gloom and some even go so far to claim the genre is dead or about to die. Yet there are more people playing MMOs now than ever. The only validity I can see in such claims is the bad retention rates MMOs have when they launch. I've seen some figures and experienced first hand bad retention rates over the last couple of years but it dawned on me that it might not have ever been better. So did older games retain there playerbase any better in their first few months?

  STAUDERWALKIE

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 18

7/04/13 7:17:15 AM#2
Not sure there is a way to prove it between years ago and now tbh..but with the large influx of people into this marketplace over the last decade or so it's much easier to notice when people are leaving a game.  Percentage wise with "larger commercialized" worlds most of the time a zone/hub will become a ghost town, but there are a lot more game options than in the past so players are torn between products(ftp makes this harder for the consumer to decide to stay with just one product. Just my perspective there:)

  timtrack

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 415

7/04/13 7:20:35 AM#3

Something is really wrong when having 50-100k paying costumers is considered bad.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/04/13 7:22:43 AM#4
Originally posted by ozmono

So did older games retain there playerbase any better in their first few months?

Older MMOs not only retained their playerbase better but saw growth for a longer period of time.

Here is a graph that shows how older MMOs had a period of growth whereas the newer MMOs are pretty much spike and drop:

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/04/13 7:25:52 AM#5
Originally posted by timtrack

Something is really wrong when having 50-100k paying costumers is considered bad.

Something is really wrong with the assumption that there is a One-Size-Fits-All subscriber count.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  ozmono

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1045

 
OP  7/04/13 7:30:03 AM#6
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by ozmono

So did older games retain there playerbase any better in their first few months?

Older MMOs not only retained their playerbase better but saw growth for a longer period of time.

Here is a graph that shows how older MMOs had a period of growth whereas the newer MMOs are pretty much spike and drop:

Thanks that's exactly what I was looking for.

  STAUDERWALKIE

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 18

7/04/13 7:32:06 AM#7

 I agree there, the industry is concerned more about market share and putting out "summer blockbuster style" games that have huge budgets (SWTOR I'm looking in your direction!) and don't have a lot of depth to them. I'm thinking that game devs are looking at development on smaller, more user created games with tools built in for the future since players eat through content rather quickly and user created content never hurts to entertain (a redeeming factor in the lobby game that is NW).

The next round of games (next 6-12months ) will be interesting to see how after SOE releases EQN how Blizzard responds.

  shingoukieh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 123

7/04/13 7:32:40 AM#8

u also had to think back then there were less mmorpgs as well. now everyone wants to make one or publish one from asia to make a bit of cash. 

just take a look at the game forum....so many mmorpgs on the list. and out of all those mmos the only pay ones i believe are wow, eve, and ff11 and 14. so one could go years and never spend a dime on gaming (granted you get what u pay for but still)

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

7/04/13 7:34:03 AM#9

Didn't have many choices back then really so players used to stick to one MMO for longer times.

And i really don't need to see a graph to know that a game like warhammer online had one of the worst retention rates in history of MMORPG's.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  STAUDERWALKIE

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 18

7/04/13 7:53:46 AM#10

Yes there are more games now than before with the genre having lot of exposure (and will only grow once the new consoles start turning every PS4/XB1 game into mmos) and the barrier to entry into games due to FTP has made jumping around almost too easy. These are also alot of the games that are made to capitalize on the consumer  rather quickly  with monetizing almost every item( not a fan personally of this system but I digress).  These games come across as cash grabs rather than a sub or BTP game but monetization has a lot to say about why people jump around mmos and why the community as a whole act as a bunch of gypsies. I wish more companies would go back to free trials/make it a sub based game, that also would require that your product was worth subbing to. Only 3-4 games are actually that decent to give you a free trial and have a sub fee that people are willing to pay for afterwards, sad that although the marketplace is much bigger, we STILL have the same amount of Quality titles out as we did in the past. That being said, seems like game designers  are starting to get away from cloning other games ( last 5 years or so) and starting to make games that they might actually play for more than a week before uninstalling :P

 

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6404

7/04/13 8:03:41 AM#11

Its not only MMOs its most games, people jump in play a bit and move on to other games faster than ever. We are living in accelerating world of change, there are more choices and more games in a shorter amount of time.

This is why many game Devs are transitioning to smaller games on shorter game cycles than one huge game with a 4-5 year Dev cycle.

 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4847

7/04/13 8:18:23 AM#12
Originally posted by DMKano

Its not only MMOs its most games, people jump in play a bit and move on to other games faster than ever. We are living in accelerating world of change, there are more choices and more games in a shorter amount of time.

This is why many game Devs are transitioning to smaller games on shorter game cycles than one huge game with a 4-5 year Dev cycle.

This ^

People here assume that the game determines everything, but that's not really true. Things like the current market (which makes it much easier to hop from game-to-game) means that fewer people are going to be willing to stick to just one game. In a genre like MMOs, where it's assumed they will last for a long time, this can be very bad.

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/13 9:21:39 AM#13
Originally posted by ozmono

Some people like to predict doom and gloom and some even go so far to claim the genre is dead or about to die. Yet there are more people playing MMOs now than ever. The only validity I can see in such claims is the bad retention rates MMOs have when they launch. I've seen some figures and experienced first hand bad retention rates over the last couple of years but it dawned on me that it might not have ever been better. So did older games retain there playerbase any better in their first few months?

Yes, the bad retention rate is new, because many of the early MMORPG's which are still going, had little problem keeping their subs even when competing and this was way back in the dial-up modem days (before WOW stepped in and the right time during the broadband explosion.)

The key was design.  The content was tough, not all of it was evident (you had to search for some), and most of it required a group effort.

The games that are failing to keep their subs, splashing and crashing as I like to call it, are the ones where the designs is mostly single player or coop format, where you are heavily guided down a linear path, where leveling is fast, and where you can basically drive through most of the content in two or three months of dedicated gameplay.  (In the early games, such goals might take two or three years.)

Don't worry though, PROPER MMO design is coming back, starting with EQ Next.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/04/13 9:57:04 AM#14


Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Originally posted by ozmono Some people like to predict doom and gloom and some even go so far to claim the genre is dead or about to die. Yet there are more people playing MMOs now than ever. The only validity I can see in such claims is the bad retention rates MMOs have when they launch. I've seen some figures and experienced first hand bad retention rates over the last couple of years but it dawned on me that it might not have ever been better. So did older games retain there playerbase any better in their first few months?
Yes, the bad retention rate is new, because many of the early MMORPG's which are still going, had little problem keeping their subs even when competing and this was way back in the dial-up modem days (before WOW stepped in and the right time during the broadband explosion.)

The key was design.  The content was tough, not all of it was evident (you had to search for some), and most of it required a group effort.

The games that are failing to keep their subs, splashing and crashing as I like to call it, are the ones where the designs is mostly single player or coop format, where you are heavily guided down a linear path, where leveling is fast, and where you can basically drive through most of the content in two or three months of dedicated gameplay.  (In the early games, such goals might take two or three years.)

Don't worry though, PROPER MMO design is coming back, starting with EQ Next.




The combined population of all of those games at their peak was less then two million people. Compare that to two million people jumping into SWToR at release. We know the number of people who would play an MMORPG is more than two million people just in North America. Most of the people who would enjoy an MMORPG weren't playing MMORPGs when those early MMORPGs were releasing. I don't know how competitive you can say it is when the number of people available so far exceeds the number of people who were actually playing the games.

We have no idea if early MMORPG suffered the same player retention issues at launch as new MMORPGs because it took years for early MMORPGs to establish a population. New MMORPGs get their biggest population boost within a week or a month.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

I understand what the OP is getting at, and I also understand the view of people who think the early MMORPGs were the epitome of the genre, and I can even understand people thinking EQN is going to be what they want, since SOE hasn't said anything specific about it, but proving any of that isn't possible without a lot more information from the developers or publishers themselves.

**

When SWG released, UO started to tank. When faced with direct competition, any older MMORPG is going to lose ground.

** **

When EQ2 released, EQ started to lose ground. WoW isn't in the chart, but that would be the other reason those games lost ground. In fact, all of those early games lost ground when competing against WoW. Being "New" almost always trumps being "Old". It will be the same for EQN as well. It will have the advantage of being "New".

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1724

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/04/13 1:26:58 PM#15
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Originally posted by ozmono Some people like to predict doom and gloom and some even go so far to claim the genre is dead or about to die. Yet there are more people playing MMOs now than ever. The only validity I can see in such claims is the bad retention rates MMOs have when they launch. I've seen some figures and experienced first hand bad retention rates over the last couple of years but it dawned on me that it might not have ever been better. So did older games retain there playerbase any better in their first few months?
Yes, the bad retention rate is new, because many of the early MMORPG's which are still going, had little problem keeping their subs even when competing and this was way back in the dial-up modem days (before WOW stepped in and the right time during the broadband explosion.)

 

The key was design.  The content was tough, not all of it was evident (you had to search for some), and most of it required a group effort.

The games that are failing to keep their subs, splashing and crashing as I like to call it, are the ones where the designs is mostly single player or coop format, where you are heavily guided down a linear path, where leveling is fast, and where you can basically drive through most of the content in two or three months of dedicated gameplay.  (In the early games, such goals might take two or three years.)

Don't worry though, PROPER MMO design is coming back, starting with EQ Next.




The combined population of all of those games at their peak was less then two million people. Compare that to two million people jumping into SWToR at release. We know the number of people who would play an MMORPG is more than two million people just in North America. Most of the people who would enjoy an MMORPG weren't playing MMORPGs when those early MMORPGs were releasing. I don't know how competitive you can say it is when the number of people available so far exceeds the number of people who were actually playing the games.

We have no idea if early MMORPG suffered the same player retention issues at launch as new MMORPGs because it took years for early MMORPGs to establish a population. New MMORPGs get their biggest population boost within a week or a month.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

I understand what the OP is getting at, and I also understand the view of people who think the early MMORPGs were the epitome of the genre, and I can even understand people thinking EQN is going to be what they want, since SOE hasn't said anything specific about it, but proving any of that isn't possible without a lot more information from the developers or publishers themselves.

**

When SWG released, UO started to tank. When faced with direct competition, any older MMORPG is going to lose ground.

** **

When EQ2 released, EQ started to lose ground. WoW isn't in the chart, but that would be the other reason those games lost ground. In fact, all of those early games lost ground when competing against WoW. Being "New" almost always trumps being "Old". It will be the same for EQN as well. It will have the advantage of being "New".

 

Remember, though, the early MMO's were of the dial-up modem era, while WOW and subsequent MMO's launched as broadband exploded and everyone became addicted to their computers.  I think that was a huge factor in MMORPG population increases overall.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/04/13 1:28:56 PM#16
Originally posted by lizardbones

We have no idea if early MMORPG suffered the same player retention issues at launch as new MMORPGs because it took years for early MMORPGs to establish a population. New MMORPGs get their biggest population boost within a week or a month.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

 

Could you expand on that a bit more? What you stated seems to directly contradict the graph you linked to, so I assume I'm simply just not understanding what you meant.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/04/13 2:01:44 PM#17


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by lizardbones We have no idea if early MMORPG suffered the same player retention issues at launch as new MMORPGs because it took years for early MMORPGs to establish a population. New MMORPGs get their biggest population boost within a week or a month. http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png  
Could you expand on that a bit more? What you stated seems to directly contradict the graph you linked to, so I assume I'm simply just not understanding what you meant.



Retention is a relationship between the amount of something retained versus the amount of something lost.

A bucket full of water has a 100% retention rate if none of the water is poured out. For MMORPGs, the retention rate would be determined as the number of people who subscribe to a game versus the number of people who tried or bought the game. That chart only shows the number of people subscribing at given points in time.

We have no idea how many people picked the game up and didn't subscribe or only subscribed for a short period of time. It only shows at specific points in time, how many people were subscribed.

To see the retention rates for MMORPGs over time, both new and old we need more information than is currently available.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/04/13 11:56:25 PM#18
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by lizardbones We have no idea if early MMORPG suffered the same player retention issues at launch as new MMORPGs because it took years for early MMORPGs to establish a population. New MMORPGs get their biggest population boost within a week or a month. http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png  
Could you expand on that a bit more? What you stated seems to directly contradict the graph you linked to, so I assume I'm simply just not understanding what you meant.

Retention is a relationship between the amount of something retained versus the amount of something lost.

A bucket full of water has a 100% retention rate if none of the water is poured out. For subscription MMORPGs, the retention rate would be determined as the number of people who are currently subscribed to a game versus the number of people who bought the game. That chart only shows the number of people subscribing at given points in time.

We have no idea how many people picked the game up and didn't subscribe or only subscribed for a short period of time. It only shows at specific points in time, how many people were subscribed.

To see the retention rates for MMORPGs over time, both new and old we need more information than is currently available.

 

 I am quite familiar with what retention is, and I corrected your statement accordingly (yellow). Additionally, trials are part of acquisition - you'd really hose your retention numbers if you included the trial users. :) 

What you're basically saying is that it's possible the original MMOs had a very high amount of churn, but that would suggest the market is far larger than any industry data has ever indicated.  This is entirely possible.

"Ultima Online has an average retention time of many months. Meaning that the average player who buys the game plays for at least that long. A sizable, well over double-digit percentage of our playerbase has been with us continuously since the day the product launched.

This sort of thing is nothing new to those of you who have been running online games for a while." - Raph Koster, futuredev

 

If there is a double-digit percentage of players in current MMOs still around after launch, then you're probably on to something. It would mean, though, that acquisition is abysmally low beyond the first month. The numbers just don't seem to add up, however, even if you figure in only 5% monthly churn, the acquisition would have to be relatively decent otherwise these MMOs would disappear into nothingness inside of 10-12 months.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  aRtFuLThinG

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1116

7/05/13 2:26:08 AM#19

Bad retention rate of the current generation of mmo seems to be because they are no good.

 

If you look at the mmo list from early to mid 00's, a lot of those old-timers are still around (ie the one that were made pre-WoW days).

 

Not many of the post-WoW ones survived very long.

 

Also notice how the old mid 00's games are quite different, in terms of the contents' focus, compare to today.

 

Just like things in 1950s compare to things made today, mmos of 2010s doesn't seems to be made to last. Mmos of early 2000s was.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/05/13 4:23:54 AM#20
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Bad retention rate of the current generation of mmo seems to be because they are no good.

 

If you look at the mmo list from early to mid 00's, a lot of those old-timers are still around (ie the one that were made pre-WoW days).

 

Not many of the post-WoW ones survived very long.

 

Also notice how the old mid 00's games are quite different, in terms of the contents' focus, compare to today.

 

Just like things in 1950s compare to things made today, mmos of 2010s doesn't seems to be made to last. Mmos of early 2000s was.

Yup. Modern MMOs are designed as singleplayer games with some coop options. People burn through the content and then leave.

 

Not only that, but they're almost all WoW clones that introduce nothing new. There's no social interaction in these games. No bonds are formed with other players that keep you playing. Its really easy to leave an MMO that you don't have any friends in.

 

Old MMOs - social virtual worlds, grew over long periods of time and held onto players.

Modern "MMOs" - singleplayer WoW clones with massive AAA budgets that collapse under their own marketing right away.

2 Pages 1 2 » Search