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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » POLL: Are traditional levels outmoded?

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73 posts found
  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3754

7/02/13 3:48:41 PM#21
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

     Here is something I worked on for fun for character progression.  I won't get into the exact formula and numbers and will simplify it with the following example:

     Every level 1 toon starts off with 10,000 health.   There are minor racial bonuses.. For each level gained, the character will receive 100 pts of health, so over the course of their life (50 levels), they will max out at 15,000 health..  The intent here is that a max'd level character gets an advantage over lower level characters in PvP, and mobs in PvE.. but they are not God's, and can be easily defeated if ganged up on.. Sure there would be additional bonuses to take the player character over 15,000 health, such as gear and buffs, maybe allowing a total health around 20,000..  There were also other stats that came into play that determined your offensive and defensive capabilities, but in summary I had designed it so that it would take 4 beginners (newbies)  a 50/50 chance at defeating a level 50 character or mob...... Exception to those mobs that are elite in nature.. :) 

     I did add in one thing I have not seen by any game yet.. I added in 10 limited levels of progression.. This came from my military background in the USAF..  Not everyone can be a General.. Right?  So what I did was have a cut off at 40th level.. This was the true ceiling everyone could achieve, but the only way to advance beyond 40th was to earn more points then others.. Once you reach 40th level, you will gain a new exp bar that resets every 2nd month..  The reason I did was many as I will try to explain.. he he he..  Lets assume over the months of playing, the player base matures to a healthy 2,000 level 40 characters.. We have all seen this in any game we've played.. So what I did was make it so only 1 character can be lvl 50.. This character would be the top of the pyramid , while everyone else fills out below..  Every 2 months when the new (xp) bar resets you could be promoted or demoted depending on your gameplay..  So if you are the level 50 player enjoying your title and go on a 2 month vacation, when you come back you'll be just another lvl 40 character until you earn the most xp once again for the new 2 month period..

     I did this for 2 reasons.. 1) just something new to add in for fun.. give max level a twist.. 2) it encourages you to be an active player to keep your advance bonus levels.. 

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1878

"I shall take your position into consideration"

7/02/13 3:52:32 PM#22

Levels are awesome.

Dont think that there should be only MMOs with this design though. There is enough space for games with various types of progression.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  BrucyBonus

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 224

 
OP  7/02/13 3:53:25 PM#23
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

     Here is something I worked on for fun for character progression.  I won't get into the exact formula and numbers and will simplify it with the following example:

     Every level 1 toon starts off with 10,000 health.   There are minor racial bonuses.. For each level gained, the character will receive 100 pts of health, so over the course of their life (50 levels), they will max out at 15,000 health..  The intent here is that a max'd level character gets an advantage over lower level characters in PvP, and mobs in PvE.. but they are not God's, and can be easily defeated if ganged up on.. Sure there would be additional bonuses to take the player character over 15,000 health, such as gear and buffs, maybe allowing a total health around 20,000..  There were also other stats that came into play that determined your offensive and defensive capabilities, but in summary I had designed it so that it would take 4 beginners (newbies)  a 50/50 chance at defeating a level 50 character or mob...... Exception to those mobs that are elite in nature.. :) 

     I did add in one thing I have not seen by any game yet.. I added in 10 limited levels of progression.. This came from my military background in the USAF..  Not everyone can be a General.. Right?  So what I did was have a cut off at 40th level.. This was the true ceiling everyone could achieve, but the only way to advance beyond 40th was to earn more points then others.. Once you reach 40th level, you will gain a new exp bar that resets every 2nd month..  The reason I did was many as I will try to explain.. he he he..  Lets assume over the months of playing, the player base matures to a healthy 2,000 level 40 characters.. We have all seen this in any game we've played.. So what I did was make it so only 1 character can be lvl 50.. This character would be the top of the pyramid , while everyone else fills out below..  Every 2 months when the new (xp) bar resets you could be promoted or demoted depending on your gameplay..  So if you are the level 50 player enjoying your title and go on a 2 month vacation, when you come back you'll be just another lvl 40 character until you earn the most xp once again for the new 2 month period..

     I did this for 2 reasons.. 1) just something new to add in for fun.. give max level a twist.. 2) it encourages you to be an active player to keep your advance bonus levels.. 

I like the idea of closing the gap between levels, it also seems absurd to me that a max level can stomp on a hundred newbies without a thought.  

The one elite player character is something I simply would not partake in; it would involve more dedication than I could have to a game.  

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/02/13 3:58:01 PM#24
Originally posted by waynejr2
 

 He should have made a simple yes/no poll.  With a fuzzy poll, he can point to any non-pure level positive and "claim" to support a non-level position.  The pure poll would lose and he knows it.  Thus the fuzzy poll.

well .. a non-scientific on a forum with self-selecting participants really cannot be used as proof for anything. At best, it is telling something that may be true, so you can look deeper (if you are so inclined).

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/02/13 4:00:27 PM#25
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

    

Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.

In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.

 

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3754

7/02/13 4:12:51 PM#26
     No worries Brucy.. The extra 10 bonus level thing is minor, and more of a status thing, then anything else..  My entire goal when designing my level progression chart was to keep the community within reach of each other without using systems like "mentoring" as CoH and EQ2 uses, or de-leveling as GW2 does..  I'm a firm believer to allow veteran players to mingle with newbies.. For me the best way is to just nerf progression..  The idea of a level 30 character teaming up with a level 15 and a level 2 newbie is awesome.. I'm all game for a group (6) level 5 characters to go venture off into a level 35 zone and see how they fair.. IF they fight smart, they should do well :) As long as they avoid elite mobs.. lol
  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3754

7/02/13 4:15:02 PM#27
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

    

Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.

In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.

 

Again, thank you for  your OPINION.. lol  As for max level being balanced?  I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you?  I have YET to seen any game balance anything..   BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you?  lmao

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/02/13 4:20:08 PM#28
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

    

Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.

In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.

 

Again, thank you for  your OPINION.. lol  As for max level being balanced?  I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you?  I have YET to seen any game balance anything..   BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you?  lmao

Well, your OPINION is as much welcomed, as you thank for mine.

That works out great ... since i know likely that when i get to top tier, my DPS will not be gimped. The difference between toons at same tier at max level is much smaller than at different levels.

Isn't that what "more balance" mean?

  Apraxis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1515

7/02/13 4:22:06 PM#29
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

     Here is something I worked on for fun for character progression.  I won't get into the exact formula and numbers and will simplify it with the following example:

     Every level 1 toon starts off with 10,000 health.   There are minor racial bonuses.. For each level gained, the character will receive 100 pts of health, so over the course of their life (50 levels), they will max out at 15,000 health..  The intent here is that a max'd level character gets an advantage over lower level characters in PvP, and mobs in PvE.. but they are not God's, and can be easily defeated if ganged up on.. Sure there would be additional bonuses to take the player character over 15,000 health, such as gear and buffs, maybe allowing a total health around 20,000..  There were also other stats that came into play that determined your offensive and defensive capabilities, but in summary I had designed it so that it would take 4 beginners (newbies)  a 50/50 chance at defeating a level 50 character or mob...... Exception to those mobs that are elite in nature.. :) 

     I did add in one thing I have not seen by any game yet.. I added in 10 limited levels of progression.. This came from my military background in the USAF..  Not everyone can be a General.. Right?  So what I did was have a cut off at 40th level.. This was the true ceiling everyone could achieve, but the only way to advance beyond 40th was to earn more points then others.. Once you reach 40th level, you will gain a new exp bar that resets every 2nd month..  The reason I did was many as I will try to explain.. he he he..  Lets assume over the months of playing, the player base matures to a healthy 2,000 level 40 characters.. We have all seen this in any game we've played.. So what I did was make it so only 1 character can be lvl 50.. This character would be the top of the pyramid , while everyone else fills out below..  Every 2 months when the new (xp) bar resets you could be promoted or demoted depending on your gameplay..  So if you are the level 50 player enjoying your title and go on a 2 month vacation, when you come back you'll be just another lvl 40 character until you earn the most xp once again for the new 2 month period..

     I did this for 2 reasons.. 1) just something new to add in for fun.. give max level a twist.. 2) it encourages you to be an active player to keep your advance bonus levels.. 

I agree with you. Reducing the power gap would solve a lot of problems, and you could avoid gated content and linearity to some extent. That alone will not work. The world have to build up accordingly. And by the way, in old UO it was rather similar to this. Newby startet at 33 HP at maximum was 100 HP. With overall points to spent of 200 in 3 stats(Str(=HP), int(=Mana), dex).

And about the colored text. This was the old PvP rank system in World of Warcraft. But in WoW the problem was that pvp gear was available through the rank system.. and the last rank only even possible if you played for weeks/month more or less 24/7. After a few month the pve raider with there epic gear came into the pvp battlegrounds and rocked everything with almost no pvper having the complete pvp epic gear, which by comparsion even sucked against the pve epic gear.

Short time after they removed that system.

 

 

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1878

"I shall take your position into consideration"

7/02/13 4:23:00 PM#30
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

    

Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.

In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.

 

Again, thank you for  your OPINION.. lol  As for max level being balanced?  I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you?  I have YET to seen any game balance anything..   BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you?  lmao

I prefer slow character progression to keep playerbase relatively balanced rather than easy cap and aiming for as much balance as possible. RPGs are not Counter Strike. They are not about 100% balance and competitive PvP. They are much more about character progression.

Games which let you reach cap quickly and then play endgame without any progression are not really RPGs. They are RPGs only for the short while until you reach the max level and get capped. Then they become counter strike...play PvP maps, play PVE maps. Usually you just wait in the lobby (town) and queue for one of these. That is definitely not what I, personally, want from MMORPG,

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3754

7/02/13 4:27:09 PM#31
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

    

Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.

In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.

 

Again, thank you for  your OPINION.. lol  As for max level being balanced?  I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you?  I have YET to seen any game balance anything..   BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you?  lmao

Well, your OPINION is as much welcomed, as you thank for mine.

That works out great ... since i know likely that when i get to top tier, my DPS will not be gimped. The difference between toons at same tier at max level is much smaller than at different levels.

Isn't that what "more balance" mean?

like I said.. you must not play much..  When is the last time in WoW you grouped up your lvl 70 with a newbie and enjoyed a good fun hour of thrills and excitement..  WoW is one of the prime examples of WORST leveling progression ever created.. When today's maxed out characters can SOLO a raid dungeons from a previous expansion that is ALL the proof needed.. Open world PvP became a joke because a maxed level character could go around ONE SHOTTING anyone more then 20 levels below them.. 

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/02/13 4:27:40 PM#32
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

I tried to start a discussion on how well a game could be designed without levels.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/388581/What-if.html

 

However, since it didn't contain the phrases "EQNext" "WoW Sucks" "GW2 Sucks" "Rift Sucks" "F2P Sucks" "P2P Sucks" "MMOs Suck" it didn't stir much discussion.

 

The important thing is for you to learn from your mistakes.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3754

7/02/13 4:33:50 PM#33
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
    I've always enjoyed character progression, but at times I wish there was something new and different.. One thing that has always frosted my backside, was the exponential inflation of power as one levels up.. This became insane as characters at max level could kill an army of newbies with one spell, or stomp.. To me, this causes a tremendous separation in the player base, which in turn could lead to newbies feeling that max level is the ONLY option to enjoy the game.. Instead of players becoming God's by max level, why not nerf the character progression to a slower rate that keeps the player base together..

    

Because there are always those who will play night and day, and either there is no progress .. and everyone is fed up and leave, or there will be a separation.

In fact, max level is the solution to keep the player base together. That is the reason why things get "balanced" at max level. If you look at a game like WOW, most time is spent at max level, where you and your friends have little separation.

 

Again, thank you for  your OPINION.. lol  As for max level being balanced?  I take it you haven't played many MMO's have you?  I have YET to seen any game balance anything..   BTW, have you heard about "tiered" gear? .. How's that work for you?  lmao

I prefer slow character progression to keep playerbase relatively balanced rather than easy cap and aiming for as much balance as possible. RPGs are not Counter Strike. They are not about 100% balance and competitive PvP. They are much more about character progression.

Games which let you reach cap quickly and then play endgame without any progression are not really RPGs. They are RPGs only for the short while until you reach the max level and get capped. Then they become counter strike...play PvP maps, play PVE maps. Usually you just wait in the lobby (town) and queue for one of these. That is definitely not what I, personally, want from MMORPG,

Agreed.. I've always said that today's games are more Esport then RPG..  I don't know if we'll ever get back our RPG worlds.. Everything seems live in an instance.. (Sad)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/02/13 4:38:24 PM#34
Originally posted by Rydeson
 

like I said.. you must not play much..  When is the last time in WoW you grouped up your lvl 70 with a newbie and enjoyed a good fun hour of thrills and excitement..  WoW is one of the prime examples of WORST leveling progression ever created.. When today's maxed out characters can SOLO a raid dungeons from a previous expansion that is ALL the proof needed.. Open world PvP became a joke because a maxed level character could go around ONE SHOTTING anyone more then 20 levels below them.. 

And who don't have a max level toon in WOW? Most players i know (before i quit) have multiple max level toons. The true newbie is few and far .. and so what if i don't group with them?

And what does open pvp has to do with it? There is none in WOW. Open world pvp is just not that popular in MMOs.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/02/13 4:39:55 PM#35
Originally posted by Rydeson
 

Agreed.. I've always said that today's games are more Esport then RPG..  I don't know if we'll ever get back our RPG worlds.. Everything seems live in an instance.. (Sad)

Thank you for your OPINION.

yes, because e-sport is popular. In fact, the innovation is to take the e-sport out and make a game on its own (like LoL, WoT ...) Those games are a lot more popular than any "true" MMOs.

Whether it is sad or not depends on your preference. If you are on the wrong side of the market, what can i say?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/02/13 4:41:52 PM#36
Originally posted by coretex666

Games which let you reach cap quickly and then play endgame without any progression are not really RPGs. They are RPGs only for the short while until you reach the max level and get capped. Then they become counter strike...play PvP maps, play PVE maps. Usually you just wait in the lobby (town) and queue for one of these. That is definitely not what I, personally, want from MMORPG,

According to you?

And if not, just relabel them something else. Problem solved.

And what *you* want from MMORPG .. is not necessarily what other wants. Personally, i am more than happy to wait in the lobby for the next dungeon, providing that the combat & dungeon design is fun.

 

  Blackaddera

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 70

7/02/13 4:50:49 PM#37

I just love the concept of levels in an mmo, it lets me see if i'm good enough to kill mobs x lvl's above me. In most games that's about 3-5 although i've had some where i could get up to 7 lvls. It allows you to test your skills. And I'm sorry but games without lvls are just boring IMO. If you say that lvls distract you from the story you're dead wrong, in any decent MMO's the progression in lvls just makes the story better.

the steel shines red with enemy blood. It sings of victory, granted by the gods. And as they return bleeding but proud, the horizon burns and the song is ringing LOUD!

  LordEbola

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/11
Posts: 51

7/02/13 4:53:25 PM#38
there were a few games i enjoyed that when you reach cap you have the option of being reborn with basic accumulative stat increases ie being reborn, you get +1 to all stats or an ability from another race/class,  which you could do over and over,  but each rebirth also meant ya needed more exp to lvl (first rebirth 1.1x exp second 1.3x exp third 1.5x exp ect ect) which made them more replayable and more fun to me,  id like to see this more in newer games
  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7591

7/02/13 4:58:38 PM#39

Levels will always be one of the simplest and most elegant designs for indicating player progression, so clearly they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1806

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/02/13 5:22:25 PM#40
Originally posted by Axehilt

Levels will always be one of the simplest and most elegant designs for indicating player progression, so clearly they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Agreed.  And levels exist in almost all MMORPG systems, whether overt or not.  SWG and UO were skill-based but those are like levels, in a sense.

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