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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How the "I pay $15/mo like everyone, i should see everything" mentality has contributed to the current state of MMO's.

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163 posts found
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

6/30/13 11:11:05 PM#61
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Hrimnir

In the days of EQ the casual players didnt begrudge the players who had more time, skill, whatever.  They had plenty of stuff to do and had fun doing it.  It wasnt born of jealousy or entitlement, etc.

You're correct; it did take quite some time before gamers began to see everything in MMOs as competition.

Wonder where that went wrong...

We didn't begrudge them because we left the game, more than 2 million of us tried EQ and quit between its release and the development of EQ2.  The whole point of EQ2 was to catch those gamers like me who hated the raid or die paradigm.  What's sad is that over the years, EQ2 has done nothing but add more and more weight and focus to the raiding game.

  Jadedangel1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/13
Posts: 187

6/30/13 11:11:11 PM#62
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by Jadedangel1
I agree with a lot of what you said, but not everything can be blamed on casual players and their entitlement. A lot of this is on the developers shoulders. Yes, these are games, but for the developers its a business too. And they want that business to be profitable. If games were so great back then before all the casuals stepped in, the developers wouldn't have had to implement the easier features we expect today. But this was not the case. Though the players that they had enjoyed the game, it was not enough to sustain them profit wise. Next came the "If you build it, they will come" way of thinking, and like fish drawn to bait, the casual players were hooked in. You can't have the egg before the chicken, and likewise you can't fully blame casual players for asking for more of what was first handed out to them.

I understand where you're coming from on the profitability argument, the problem is that MMO's can be extremely profitable with a lot less subscribers than people think.

Just for some numbers. Rift cost approx $50 million to make (original Rift, not sure on xpac).

Now, according to this article they sold a million copies of the game as of about 3 months after release:

http://www.vg247.com/2011/06/07/rift-has-almost-one-million-folks-playing-it-according-to-trion-wolrds/

According to this article, as of 9 months after release, they made over $100 million in revenue:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/rift-revenues-reach-100-million-in-2011-6348954?keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=600&width=850&caption=GameSpots+PlayStation+3+News

 

So, basically with less than a million subscribers, keep in mind that was 1 million sold over the three months, that wasnt neccesarily 1 million subbed as of 3 months later.   Whatever they lost in the months following up to the end of the year (guesses at the time were down to between 400 and 500k actual subs), they made back their development costs and then an extra 50 million on top of that.

 

That means it was already extremely profitable.

 

An mmo could have a 100 million dollar budget, sell 500k copies, and retain 40% of those subs and it would be profitable within a couple of years.  And thats on a HUGE budget.  They could easily make a fantastic mmo with a 20-30mil budget, sell 500k copies, retain 40% of that and be profitable in less than a year.

Yes, you're right, they can be very profitable, but what the average person sees as profitable is different from what a company sees. All they care about is making more and more money, which is something they can not do without expanding their player base. Not to mention, though they may make their money back during the initial months, if they want to keep producing content and paying employees, they can not guarantee that they will be able to sustain that once the player base begins to decline barely a few months after launch.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

6/30/13 11:14:40 PM#63
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
Originally posted by Salahudin
definitely  15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..

Everyone has always had access to all content in P2P games. Everyone could raid in WoW. Whether you got around to it was determined by the time you could invest in the game and skill you had to play your character in a raid setting.

I pay $45 a month (with in game currency) to play EVE online with 3 accounts. Have I done all there is to do in EVE? No. Will I do all there is to do in EVE? Will I fly EVERY ship in EVE? No. But I have the same chance as everyone else who subscribes to the game to ANYTHING I want as long as I put in the time and effort to train skills and be a good pilot. 

Maybe the real issue is that most P2P games now and in the past would funnel everyone into a singular play style, raiding.  Perhaps if they had the decency to offer other kinds of content at end game with their own epic loot progression, it wouldn't be an issue.  It really sucks to have these "casual" MMOs out there and yet they turn into hardcore raidfest turds and people like me feel like we've been ripped off and forced to subsidize niche content in a game that was suppose to be targeted at us casuals.

I'm willing to listen. But I personally can't think of such a thing.

 

can you give examples of such endgame ? I mean the obvious answer is eve-like metagame pvp sov warfare. Right ? there's virtually no raiding in EVE at all. most pve is done solo or in micro-groups. So it's possible. but eve is not by any means "casual". so what does a non-raiding casual endgame look like to you ? can you squeeze out such a concept ?

Take a look at a game like Wildstar and look at their plans to even out the end game reward system between raiding and everything else.  I have no issues with end game being more questing, dungeon crawling, puzzle solving, exploration, crafting, spvp and so forth, as long as we can still progress in every way the game offers, including loot, story and alternate advancement without being forced to do raids.  GW2 does a decent job at rewarding all play styles without forcing everyone to raid.  If only they had gone with a slower paced combat system, it would have been the perfect game for me.

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2615

6/30/13 11:24:14 PM#64
Originally posted by Hrimnir

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.

We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.

Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.

So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.

Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation.

You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.

So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

Have you beaten all WoW raid content on heroic?  Do you possess all the BIS gear?  Do you have all achievements?  How many world-firsts do you have?  You can trade WoW for just about any MMORPG for the same results.

 

You can't really complain about a game being too easy, until you've managed to complete said game and had little difficulty doing so.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4814

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 11:24:17 PM#65
Originally posted by Vorthanion
 

Take a look at a game like Wildstar and look at their plans to even out the end game reward system between raiding and everything else.  I have no issues with end game being more questing, dungeon crawling, puzzle solving, exploration, crafting, spvp and so forth, as long as we can still progress in every way the game offers, including loot, story and alternate advancement without being forced to do raids.

traditionally, themeparks want to try to unify the experience at the peak, though. most games do, really. 

 

being 'on rails". (not used derogatorily here), they need to offer a climactic end of the journey. The big nemesis whose death will fix everything that's wrong with the virtual world...seems like a good fit. I have my doubts that questing alone can achieve this. The reason I do...I doubt you'll 'feel' it. 

 

games can offer the 'wooh, it's getting harder now, i must be close to the end' but then bad players...(YES, BAD PLAYERS. THEY DO EXIST.) would get stuck and not make it to the end since the process is mostly solo. 

 

games can offer flatline difficulty quests...but then you beat it and think "huh. that was it? dissapointing end". 

 

Or they can offer raiding. reality is YOU will either get stuck or burn through content much quicker than they build it. So they must slow you down without stopping you completely, in order to keep up with you. They MUST do this. They can't keep up. 

 

Think of Bob, in cubicle #5. He spent all of Friday designing the head and left arm of the mob you 3-shot 5min ago. He's not making them quicker than you're tearing them down...

  Purutzil

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2909

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

6/30/13 11:25:42 PM#66

Agree. I feel if you are paying $15 (often ONTOP of game and expansion cost) you should be entitled to everything (or damn close). In that model, everyone paying means that everyone contributes evenly. F2P (unfortunately) ends up making those high and dedicate players usually having to pay more, even with a model that gives more potential/urging for the nonhardcore to pay as well.

 

Both the hardcore AND casual benefit from it. Hardcore have content meant for more challenge and difficulty (thus more reward) to obtain while a casual gains a goal, one that even on progressing through it SHOULD give a sense of achievement, something I feel many players forget what that feels like. Having stuff given to you robs you of that joy, and it makes hardcore players (aka ones far more likely to dedicate themselves to a game) less likely to stay around, after all, why pay for a game you finished off? Big issue for me with WoW was that I had everything done and virtually little to do but wait for a raid, which meant I'd have maybe 12 hours a week to raid (aka I was hardcore :) ) with the rest of the time being just unproductive stuff. The game was overly simplified and just lacked things to do. Sure it didn't need more 'hardcore' content, but it should had stuff to work towards or activities to keep me interested without needing that 'reward' (or some other variation not linked to character progression). 

 

Hardcore players don't want things handed to them, and despite what they think, casual players don't want it either. There is a reason they are so quickly to flock away after you give them what they 'cry' for. 

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

6/30/13 11:32:33 PM#67
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Vorthanion
 

Take a look at a game like Wildstar and look at their plans to even out the end game reward system between raiding and everything else.  I have no issues with end game being more questing, dungeon crawling, puzzle solving, exploration, crafting, spvp and so forth, as long as we can still progress in every way the game offers, including loot, story and alternate advancement without being forced to do raids.

traditionally, themeparks want to try to unify the experience at the peak, though. most games do, really. 

 

being 'on rails". (not used derogatorily here), they need to offer a climactic end of the journey. The big nemesis whose death will fix everything that's wrong with the virtual world...seems like a good fit. I have my doubts that questing alone can achieve this. The reason I do...I doubt you'll 'feel' it. 

 

games can offer the 'wooh, it's getting harder now, i must be close to the end' but then bad players...(YES, BAD PLAYERS. THEY DO EXIST.) would get stuck and not make it to the end since the process is mostly solo. 

 

games can offer flatline difficulty quests...but then you beat it and think "huh. that was it? dissapointing end". 

 

Or they can offer raiding. reality is YOU will either get stuck or burn through content much quicker than they build it. So they must slow you down without stopping you completely, in order to keep up with you. They MUST do this. They can't keep up. 

 

Think of Bob, in cubicle #5. He spent all of Friday designing the head and left arm of the mob you 3-shot 5min ago. He's not making them quicker than you're tearing them down...

Then why is it in casual games, they keep setting the benchmark based on power gaming hardcores?  They're the ones who chew through content, not us hour a day, three days a week gamers who also play casually when we are online.  It would be understandable in a game like EQ, but WoW was suppose to be for us and once we reach level 50 to 60, we get funneled into a bunch of hardcore content, so we re-roll and or move to another game.  I guarantee you, if they make the content their target audience seeks, they will benefit from it and to hell with the content locusts setting the pace.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4814

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 11:41:38 PM#68
Originally posted by Vorthanion

 

Then why is it in casual games, they keep setting the benchmark based on power gaming hardcores?  They're the ones who chew through content, not us hour a day, three days a week gamers who also play casually when we are online.  It would be understandable in a game like EQ, but WoW was suppose to be for us and once we reach level 50 to 60, we get funneled into a bunch of hardcore content, so we re-roll and or move to another game.  I guarantee you, if they make the content their target audience seeks, they will benefit from it and to hell with the content locusts setting the pace.

well, LEGO Universe shut down...

 

but really, there's plenty of cutesy casual MMOs out there. But nobody really hears about them...because if you're on the forums arguing in defense of casuals, then you're already a few notches above them in hardcore-ness. 

 

which leads to the next issue...what do casuals want ? I mean they can't tell us...because they are typically not on forums. If they are on forums, then they're a non-representatie sample of casuals. Farmville proves they like building things rather than destroying them, but infinite building cant be sustained without infinite destruction. So how do you keep them building ? we don't know. 

 

and this is the part where I must defend my feelings towards casuals. I've had a great reputation in WoW for being an advanced player who wasn't mean or unhelpful. That's...rare. But, while being casual is not a problem, being resilient is. Back in early Cataclysm when heroic 5mans were indeed much harder than previous expansion ones, I got to deal with many super-weak players. 

 

I've killed these bosses 100 times, I wiped to them 50 times...I have enough patience to wipe 3 times so you can figure out how to walk away from the brown circle. It's okay. I can get you through it. If you don't get depressed and ragequit after first death. Odds are I died a couple times to it too while i was learning. But when you have no interest of getting out of that one-shotting circle, we have a problem. I can't work with you...I can't move your toon for you. 

 

pugging with players far weaker than me but willing to learn has provided some of my best endgame experiences in WoW. Those guys are happy when they get things right, they try, they listen and both me and them feel we're making progress. 

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

6/30/13 11:46:17 PM#69
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Vorthanion

 

Then why is it in casual games, they keep setting the benchmark based on power gaming hardcores?  They're the ones who chew through content, not us hour a day, three days a week gamers who also play casually when we are online.  It would be understandable in a game like EQ, but WoW was suppose to be for us and once we reach level 50 to 60, we get funneled into a bunch of hardcore content, so we re-roll and or move to another game.  I guarantee you, if they make the content their target audience seeks, they will benefit from it and to hell with the content locusts setting the pace.

well, LEGO Universe shut down...

 

but really, there's plenty of cutesy casual MMOs out there. But nobody really hears about them...because if you're on the forums arguing in defense of casuals, then you're already a few notches above them in hardcore-ness. 

 

which leads to the next issue...what do casuals want ? I mean they can't tell us...because they are typically not on forums. If they are on forums, then they're a non-representatie sample of casuals. Farmville proves they like building things rather than destroying them, but infinite building cant be sustained without infinite destruction. So how do you keep them building ? we don't know. 

 

and this is the part where I must defend my feelings towards casuals. I've had a great reputation in WoW for being an advanced player who wasn't mean or unhelpful. That's...rare. But, while being casual is not a problem, being resilient is. Back in early Cataclysm when heroic 5mans were indeed much harder than previous expansion ones, I got to deal with many super-weak players. 

 

I've killed these bosses 100 times, I wiped to them 50 times...I have enough patience to wipe 3 times so you can figure out how to walk away from the brown circle. It's okay. I can get you through it. If you don't get depressed and ragequit after first death. Odds are I died a couple times to it too while i was learning. But when you have no interest of getting out of that one-shotting circle, we have a problem. I can't work with you...I can't move your toon for you. 

Why do you assume the super weak players you got stuck with were casual gamers?  I've come across plenty of gamers over the years who talked the talk, but always laid the blame on everyone else even when they were at fault.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4814

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 11:55:12 PM#70
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Let me ask it another way.  Let's say I'm a casual, the kind you feel is getting your content nerfed.  Why would I care if your stuff gets nerfed?  Why should I want to bankroll your playstyle just so you can feel special when it doesn't benefit me at all?  Unless you can work together with others, think of it as meta-grouping, then you're going to lose out.

the short answer is  "I don't expect you to".

 

the long answer is "because i pay for the website, the voice comms server, recruit, maintain the guild, organize the group events you participate in and all you have to do is show up and follow instructions, although you're welcome to help develop the strats if you have some input. And it doesn't need to be right, we can talk about it or try it and see what happens."

 

reality is you need us to maximize your game experience and we need you to maximize ours. it's a massive-multiplayer afterall.   but if you have no intention to coexist then we dont either. 

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1391

6/30/13 11:55:19 PM#71
Originally posted by Hrimnir

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.

We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.

Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.

So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.

Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation.

You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.

So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

I could make the argument that content locust folks who play 8-10 hours a day ruined the genre. You folks constantly complain that there's not enough to do, not enough raid content, not enough faction grinding, etc. then bitch to the devs on forums cause you literally have nothing else to do as you're top level with all the best gear in the game. Ypu get bored and move on to he next target.

 

Yet, you blame casual gamers...lol. I spose "mark kern" whoever the fuck that is cant be wrong though lol.

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

6/30/13 11:59:40 PM#72

 I think the "entitlement" is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. Content is overly gated, overly simplified , and excessively to easy to access. I don't have the answer and I won't attempt one, I'd to easily fall into the .. do what my other game used to do trap.

 

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4814

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/01/13 12:04:05 AM#73
Originally posted by Vorthanion
 

Why do you assume the super weak players you got stuck with were casual gamers?  I've come across plenty of gamers over the years who talked the talk, but always laid the blame on everyone else even when they were at fault.

in my particular example, they were. I liked to raid 25mans with my guild but pug 10mans.  did this throughout BC and WOLK. I wasnt stuck with them, I joined those 10man groups willingly. Because otherwise the content I was doing, often 1-2 tiers behind would have no...taste. It didn't give anything for me, it didn't pose a challenge, but being there with a very weak group made it challenging again. And I liked that. 

 

fights that you've long outgrown are interesting again when your group is mostly new to them. well to me at least. if you ever tried to pug deep Ulduar you'd know most pugs have never seen it, there's a lot of very clear-cut mechanics...it's going to be an uphill battle for them. Beating it with this group will be a big challenge. I'll feel good if i succeed. At a personal level, I have to play twice as good to compensate, and at the same time, modify strategies to adapt to their lack of knowledge since we cant sit here for 3 days learning the fight. This is challenging both my leadership and my ability to play my character. At the same time. 

 

I like that. I am a dedicated player. I prefer to avoid the word 'hardcore' on these forums but ... yeah. I like overcoming challenges. that's what I (used to) raid for. Challenges. If I can find challenges in an older, familiar raid due to a group who's new to the instance, that's great. I have no problem being challenged in tier 4 when my guild's pushing tier 6. I get to do both. 

 

edit: how I know they were casual...well once I took my gf to AQ40 and told her to move when the last boss is looking at her. She asked me how will she know where the boss is looking. The picture below might point out why her question lead me to believe she's never seen the fight before...

http://www.glowbie.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/AQ40-3_man-2011-01-26-at-5.12.21-PM.jpg

 

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2027

May the game be ever in your favor.

7/01/13 12:10:34 AM#74
Originally posted by Hrimnir

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.

We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.

Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.

So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.

Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation.

You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.

So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

I agree with most of what you're saying but the title and the thing about paying $15 a month is confusing. At first it sounded like you meant that people shouldn't be able to get everything from an MMO by subscribing and that they should have to pay extra or something. Your title does nothing to help that either.

Smile

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/01/13 12:21:09 AM#75
Originally posted by Hrimnir

I'm making shit up?  Here ya go, took me all of 45 seconds to find, even though it was 2 years ago:

______________________________________

Now, pay attention to the ONE THOUSAND responses (actually 1135) the majority of which was pissant whining on part of the players.

Now, google "ghostcrawler L2P backlash" and then tell me im making shit up.

You obviously never spent even a second on the WOW forums, all they are is constant whining about everything.

 Edit: Honestly, did you even play wow, or rift, or any of these themepark MMO's?  I've had countless times where people refused to run a certain dungeon because it was "too hard" or, this dungeon only takes 15 minutes, i dont want to spend 25 minutes on this dungeon.  That kind of garbage was a DAILY occurance in those games. Everything in those players minds was motivated by how easy is it, if it was too hard they wouldnt do it.  They WANTED to faceroll everything.  They didnt WANT a challenge of ANY kind.

If you think that's proof of anything, you seem to fundamentally misunderstand how conversations online work.

For example in this thread you started off with a disagreement of a sentiment you've heard in the past, replied 5 times with disagreement with people, and agreed once.  So your posting activity is overwhelmingly negative.

But that's fine.  That's the nature of online conversation.  Where there is agreement, there isn't anything left to say, and where there is disagreement, conversation abounds.

But it's also why it doesn't really matter that he received a bunch of responses disagreeing with the decision, because the players who agreed with the decision for the most part simply stayed quiet.  Which is why developers need to be extremely careful to ever read too much into random knee-jerk feedback like that.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5399

7/01/13 3:29:42 AM#76

MMO design moved away from players who wanted to play an online RPG to those who wanted to play their solo RPG online. And just like their solo RPG, they think you should be able to see everything in the one online.

While shifts in society have had some impact on MMO's it is gaming companies chasing a wider audience that have transformed MMO's. The market they are looking to now would put Angry Birds in its list of top five games.

How long before the Angry Birds MMO is with us?

  Sulaa

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 921

7/01/13 4:19:50 AM#77

Decisive.

 

It was a decisive thing that made game design changes and later on one of biggest factors to rise of microtransactions.

People demanding that game and other players change and cater to them "because they don't have time or skill" instead of finding other game for themself, is what ruined MMORPG genre.

 

MMORPG genre got so disgusting and shallow it's not even funny.  btw. I am only whining every now and then on forum when I feel like it, I don't play anymore, can't stand what industry produce anymore.

  jesteralways

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 689

7/01/13 4:28:09 AM#78
Originally posted by Hrimnir

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

i stopped right there. you got tricked by mark kern's "trend marketing". congratulations.

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

7/01/13 4:35:42 AM#79
Originally posted by Hrimnir

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.

We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.

Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.

So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.

Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation.

You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.

So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

I understand and agree.

But do you realy think they do for whom this topic you wrote was made for?

 

 

 

I dont think so, over the years i gave up on explaining the dumb down and why, its hopeless. Even tho your topic is right on the spot, it hit's the nail perfectly, but its just not getting throught these concrete walls build around there heads its blocking all explain why info, im affraid.

They have abandon those who just wanne still invest game time(this is with nuances, ill explain: Time sink for me or invest long periods accomplish something over several days/weeks/months i realy dont care if its spread of longer periods of time i dont want SPOON FED instant gratification and pleasure here and now i wanne infest time to get it if this take long so be it) and achievements/goals.

I dont have alot time playing work and all, so when i go ingame and it maybe take weeks or months or even years to accomplish something  ill spread it over longer periods of time if other players have 24/7 so be it i accept that thats how it is i realy dont care eventually i catch up.

Good try tho:)

Is this explanation clear to those who want it all fast easy and now i serieusly doub they even comprihent what im trying to say here there to far brainwashes by parents and gaming industrie and all the entertainment they absorb these days.

If any of this maybe change someday i realy don't know but im confinced it's not soon i can asure you.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2893

There... are... four... lights!

7/01/13 6:06:31 AM#80

The same content can be made with different difficulty levels for different people. This has been proved to work just fine, and make way more people happy than just the tiny "hardcore" minority (which is actually mostly people without a "real life" who can afford to play video games 8+ hours a day).

And one important thing to remember... it's the "casuals" who fund games, not the hardcore minority. Without the casuals, there would be no hardcore content, because there would be no game.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

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