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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How the "I pay $15/mo like everyone, i should see everything" mentality has contributed to the current state of MMO's.

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163 posts found
  Hrimnir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1067

 
OP  6/30/13 6:36:40 PM#1

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.

We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.

Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.

So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.

Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation.

You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.

So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4484

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 6:38:32 PM#2

that was the birth of entitlement. now the story is "the customer is always right, you give everything for free nao".

 

 

  Salahudin

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 39

6/30/13 6:47:31 PM#3
definitely  15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..
  Dr_Shivinski

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 183

6/30/13 6:49:24 PM#4

You know what bothers me the most about this crowd of people? Most of them still never got around to seeing any of the content they cried for because they were either A. Terrible players, or B. They decided they were not that interested in high end raiding anyways because the rest of us were "Elitists"

Here Siggy Siggy!

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4484

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 6:49:28 PM#5
Originally posted by Salahudin
definitely  15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..

I have 3 jobs and 2 wives. Devs should cater to the majority like me. (/pauses to giggle like a schoolgirl)..who have a life, not the basement dwelling zombies. 

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/30/13 6:51:08 PM#6
Are you saying you feel it should be replaced with an attitude of "I should see more than everyone else for my $15" ?
  Dr_Shivinski

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 183

6/30/13 6:52:39 PM#7
Originally posted by Salahudin
definitely  15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..

Everyone has always had access to all content in P2P games. Everyone could raid in WoW. Whether you got around to it was determined by the time you could invest in the game and skill you had to play your character in a raid setting.

I pay $45 a month (with in game currency) to play EVE online with 3 accounts. Have I done all there is to do in EVE? No. Will I do all there is to do in EVE? Will I fly EVERY ship in EVE? No. But I have the same chance as everyone else who subscribes to the game to ANYTHING I want as long as I put in the time and effort to train skills and be a good pilot. 

Here Siggy Siggy!

  Jadedangel1

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/25/13
Posts: 183

6/30/13 6:54:34 PM#8
Originally posted by Hrimnir

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre.

We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea.

Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc.

So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc.

Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation.

You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing.

So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but not everything can be blamed on casual players and their entitlement. A lot of this is on the developers shoulders. Yes, these are games, but for the developers its a business too. And they want that business to be profitable. If games were so great back then before all the casuals stepped in, the developers wouldn't have had to implement the easier features we expect today. But this was not the case. Though the players that they had enjoyed the game, it was not enough to sustain them profit wise. Next came the "If you build it, they will come" way of thinking, and like fish drawn to bait, the casual players were hooked in. You can't have the egg before the chicken, and likewise you can't fully blame casual players for asking for more of what was first handed out to them.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4484

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 6:54:47 PM#9
Originally posted by maplestone
Are you saying you feel it should be replaced with an attitude of "I should see more than everyone else for my $15" ?

no. 

I should see more than everyone else because I am willing to go looking around and doing what it takes. Meritocracy. 

Not everyone paying his college fees gets As and degrees. 

  Divona

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/11
Posts: 164

6/30/13 6:59:04 PM#10

And so we now have free entry to the theme park Carnival where some of the ride require you to buy ticket first. Oh, and gift shop. Then people ended up spend more than $15 a month.

Usually the mentality you mention is come from single-player game where there is a clear end goal. When you pay money to the game, you own it, not about pay for the service provides.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1648

6/30/13 7:08:55 PM#11

So WoW came up with a decent solution imo. LFR, normal and heroic modes. LFR is for everybody, Normal is for guilds and heroic is for less than the top 3% of players.

Or are you simply upset that people even get to see the inside of a raid if it isn't the hardest setting?

 

  Dr_Shivinski

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 183

6/30/13 7:11:53 PM#12
Originally posted by Rusque

So WoW came up with a decent solution imo. LFR, normal and heroic modes. LFR is for everybody, Normal is for guilds and heroic is for less than the top 3% of players.

Or are you simply upset that people even get to see the inside of a raid if it isn't the hardest setting?

 

Yeeeah...no. I know plenty of people in "casual raiding" guilds that are clearing heroic content. They nerf the content within two weeks of releasing it with nothing for the people who cleared it at the peak of its difficulty to show for it. Not that WoW content has been all that difficult for quite some time now.

Here Siggy Siggy!

  Brenics

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 146

6/30/13 7:14:54 PM#13

Personally I think F2P is ruining the makeup of the games. P2P is why we got games like WOW that brought in millions of players that would never have played an mmo. People complain about how games need the best gfx, best lore, best play style but they don't want to pay for it. 

Kids today want everything for nothing. The mentality of that is what is destroying this generation. People want free healthcare, along with free phones and to sit home and play games or watch TV.

It use to be to have the best in life you had to work hard for it. When I go to Disneyland or Cedar point I pay for at least a 3 day pass so I can see everything I want to see. It worries me that if developers keep letting these kids get their way with F2P it will make games far less exciting. Personally I would love to see a game like Ultima Online made with today's gfx, but enhance the crafting, play style original UO has. It is also why the original swg was ruined because people just didn't want to pay for the best and then got the worse.

This is why games like swtor and lotro are so dumbed down and had to go F2P. Maybe there is a guy out there working in his garage on a game like UO or AC and will release a true ground breaking mmo that will make F2P a thing of the past. I know it's wishful thinking but an old man can always hope. 

Of course this is only IMHO!

  Salahudin

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 39

6/30/13 7:17:00 PM#14
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
Originally posted by Salahudin
definitely  15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..

Everyone has always had access to all content in P2P games. Everyone could raid in WoW. Whether you got around to it was determined by the time you could invest in the game and skill you had to play your character in a raid setting.

I pay $45 a month (with in game currency) to play EVE online with 3 accounts. Have I done all there is to do in EVE? No. Will I do all there is to do in EVE? Will I fly EVERY ship in EVE? No. But I have the same chance as everyone else who subscribes to the game to ANYTHING I want as long as I put in the time and effort to train skills and be a good pilot. 

Which is a great thing, no?  I don`t see the problem with paying $15 a month for a game.  the way I see it, if you can only play an hour a week and STILL decide to pay, then what`s the big deal?? what are you losing?? you are still seeing new content as you play, you aren`t getting ALL of it like a basement dweller mind you, but you are still willing to pay for it and you`ll get to play "new to you" content..

I agree with the OP,there are people out there that want it all just cause they can`t play as much and because they pay they feel they ought to have it.  I also understand that there are those that can play all hours of a day and night and cruise through the content and get geared up like crazy causing the developers to continuously advance content or else have those players get bored and frustrated.  I always felt that maybe having "regular" and "heroic" content would be a mechanism to solve the problem of meeting the needs for these two types of players but it hasn`t.  This is because, for the most part, people are envious and when they see people with "heroic" gear or certain titles, rather than accepting that they don`t have it because of their play time limitations, they go the I pay so i want route. 

I don`t have time to play a lot but I still pay subs and I`m quite happy doing so.  Even if I start a game at launch, I am still rather late at reaching level cap/end game content relative to the majority.  

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16945

6/30/13 7:20:32 PM#15
Originally posted by Hrimnir

With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's.

You know, I've seen a few posts where people have said this but I really wonder if the majority of people have this attitude or just realize that they can only do "so much" and if they can at least have fun with what they can do then it's satisfactory.

Because, I have to tell you, the commoditization of these games is still going to achieve the same thing.

If you let me pay x dollars in order to see y content then I'll pay it.

Why wouldn't the devs/game companies do this?

  atticusbc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1053

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

6/30/13 7:21:44 PM#16

wasn't the good old days that started the whole $15/mo. thing? i think if you're looking for the source of these durn casuals you need to look somewhere else.

EDIT: also sovrath nailed it. and while we're on the subject of the durn casuals... so you're complaining that people are having fun while you aren't and that because you were here first somehow that leaves you and a handful of people like you more entitled to enjoying yourselves than tens of millions of other people? wow. entitlement is right. just might want to think who the word should really be applied to.

  aRtFuLThinG

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1000

6/30/13 7:25:13 PM#17
Originally posted by Robokapp

Not everyone paying his college fees gets As and degrees. 

^ This, right here, should  end the thread.

 

No more needs to be said. Absolutely true.

 

 

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13125

6/30/13 7:34:29 PM#18

You're conflating a bunch of different issues in this thread that need to be addressed separately.  At an absolute minimum, we need to separate the issues of cumulative time spent on a game across many play sessions versus time spend continuously in a single play session.

One general principle of game design is that, to as great of an extent as is practical, a game should fit around the schedules of its players rather than forcing players to schedule their lives around the game.  It would be ideal if players could play the game whenever they had time and do the same content regardless of the lengths of play sessions or time of day.  Some things simply aren't practical to do in discontinuous five minute chunks, but a game should never say that players need to play at a particular real-life time of day or for an extended continuous play session unless there is a good gameplay reason for it.

If one game requires you to set aside four hour blocks of time to do things while another game lets you split those same four hours into four separate one hour play sessions, and the two games let you do the same content, then the latter is a much better game than the former.  Not just a little better; a lot better.  If one game says that certain content must be done from 6-7 pm and another game says that the content takes an hour but you can do it whenever you feel like it, then the latter is a much better game than the former.  Again, not just a little better; a lot better.

The only good gameplay reason that I'm aware of to require contiguous play sessions of more than an hour or so is to make group content long enough to justify the effort that it takes to assemble the group.  But even this isn't that great of a reason; the real solution is to make it quicker and easier to assemble a group.  The only good gameplay reason I'm aware of to require players to do content at a particular time of day is for one-time events.  But of course, I'm not aware of any good reason to do one-time events in most games.

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Cumulative time spent is a different issue entirely.  If one player plays a game 5 hours per day and another plays 5 hours per week, it's reasonable to expect that the latter player will take about seven times as long (in real-life time) to get to content as the former.  What's unreasonable is if the latter player is never allowed to get to some content, rather than merely taking longer to get there.

As for the latter player demanding faster leveling speed, it depends some on the nature of the game.  If the game mostly consists of stupid grinding whose only real purpose is to slow people down in their leveling, then it's perfectly reasonable for the second player to demand that that be removed.  But the reason it's reasonable isn't that he wants to level faster and ought to be allowed to do so.  Rather, the reason is because stupid grinding with no purpose other than slowing players down is bad game design and should be removed on general principle.

If a game doesn't have very much content, then it might be perfectly fine as a short game.  Interspersing massive amounts of grinding among tidbits of content means will only mean that what could have been a good, short game will instead be a bad, long game.

However, for the second player to demand that real content be removed in order to allow him to finish the game faster is wholly unreasonable.  But when do players ever demand that?  The problem with "kill 1000 furbolgs to proceed" isn't that you're asked to kill furbolgs.  The problem is that once you've killed 10, you've demonstrated that you readily could kill 1000 if you put the time in, but actually going through the motions of grinding something stupid to proceed is boring.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/30/13 7:39:40 PM#19
Originally posted by Robokapp

I should see more than everyone else because I am willing to go looking around and doing what it takes. Meritocracy.

That's a perfectly valid gaming style and a perfectly valid expectation to have for an esport (it's ok to be an elitist in a competitive environment).

The problem is that not everyone wants that.  But people still want their playstyle to get as much attention as yours for their $15.  So it's going to be in the form of an easier difficulty on the same content, or other content that they will be playing more than you.

I worry that spinning your playstyle as a meritocracy isn't convincing other people to play your way - it's just blinding you to the validity of other playstyles.

  Hrimnir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1067

 
OP  6/30/13 7:49:53 PM#20
Originally posted by Jadedangel1
I agree with a lot of what you said, but not everything can be blamed on casual players and their entitlement. A lot of this is on the developers shoulders. Yes, these are games, but for the developers its a business too. And they want that business to be profitable. If games were so great back then before all the casuals stepped in, the developers wouldn't have had to implement the easier features we expect today. But this was not the case. Though the players that they had enjoyed the game, it was not enough to sustain them profit wise. Next came the "If you build it, they will come" way of thinking, and like fish drawn to bait, the casual players were hooked in. You can't have the egg before the chicken, and likewise you can't fully blame casual players for asking for more of what was first handed out to them.

I understand where you're coming from on the profitability argument, the problem is that MMO's can be extremely profitable with a lot less subscribers than people think.

Just for some numbers. Rift cost approx $50 million to make (original Rift, not sure on xpac).

Now, according to this article they sold a million copies of the game as of about 3 months after release:

http://www.vg247.com/2011/06/07/rift-has-almost-one-million-folks-playing-it-according-to-trion-wolrds/

According to this article, as of 9 months after release, they made over $100 million in revenue:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/rift-revenues-reach-100-million-in-2011-6348954?keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=600&width=850&caption=GameSpots+PlayStation+3+News

 

So, basically with less than a million subscribers, keep in mind that was 1 million sold over the three months, that wasnt neccesarily 1 million subbed as of 3 months later.   Whatever they lost in the months following up to the end of the year (guesses at the time were down to between 400 and 500k actual subs), they made back their development costs and then an extra 50 million on top of that.

 

That means it was already extremely profitable.

 

An mmo could have a 100 million dollar budget, sell 500k copies, and retain 40% of those subs and it would be profitable within a couple of years.  And thats on a HUGE budget.  They could easily make a fantastic mmo with a 20-30mil budget, sell 500k copies, retain 40% of that and be profitable in less than a year.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

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