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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If sub games make more money, why are they all going F2P?

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193 posts found
  MyownGod

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 187

6/30/13 4:38:19 AM#41
Originally posted by Arthasm
Cause they sux so bad? 

Cause a simple mind cannot comprehend to play the game, hence they turn f2p to go for a population boom, whilst some p2p are still alive because they are too easy to play.

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 874

6/30/13 4:40:08 AM#42

I think it more has to do with how nowadays there are a shit ton of options for MMOs and they are all competing with each other.  Granted there is the quality issue of justification for an MMO to be P2P which is very hard nowadays as too much MMOs are held up to WoW standards.

I also think that companies always plan to go F2P and knew that that will be the buisness model, however they know full well that MMO gamers are impulsive buyers and they can make a shit ton of money with a retail+sub at launch and then convert to F2P later down the road if the game has the hype to back it.

I highly doubt that the P2P model is an outdated model and if a game justifies a P2P model, people will gladly pay it.  Especially with some of these utter crap models like SWTOR and Neverwinter's F2P models.

Of course you have to take into account that the normal mob mentality is that people want everything free.  Like last night at an Italian restaurant the owner was talking about how people will eat almost their entire meal who made the conscious choice to eat outside and then complain that there is a fly in the food.  And when the owner offers another plate, the customer declines but they "lost their appetite" and wants the meal free.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18814

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/30/13 7:26:10 AM#43
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Several reasons:

1. P2P model is outdated. - You can not charge subscription for a similar game that competitors give for free(ish). This is simple rule of market.

2. Subscription makes more money if you have enough subscribers. - Simply there is profit line where P2P game makes less money than F2P

---

Said that. I dont think F2P is here to stay either.

I think market is moving towards B2P as model that makes more logic both for player and publisher.

 

Great point.  Up front cost to keep the company stable past the "drop" so it can transition into some form of cash shop.  B2P also falls in line with the typical model for consoles, which look to be featuring a lot of MMOs soon.

I'd go along with this if B2P was truly that.... buy once, pay nothing more ever going forward (except the next expansion)

But by adding cash shop you make it worse than a F2P game, which can be really free (see Aion) with an optional cash shop which is superior model IMO.

The current B2P model just found a way to add big up front costs to a F2P model, and I don't see that as being advantageous, at least to the consumer.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Hyanmen

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4951

6/30/13 7:35:54 AM#44

P2P games make more money, as long as a certain prerequirement is met:

1. The game must have enough subscribers to bring more revenue than the F2P model to offset the increased dev costs.

If the above condition is not met, the game is better off going F2P.

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4693

6/30/13 7:38:43 AM#45

Well monetized F2P games make a lot more money than P2P games, because F2P games don't put a ceiling on how much some players can spend.

Example a player who wants to spend $5000 in F2P game, can't spend any more than $15 in P2P game.

F2P games allow whales (players that spend often 100x more than the rest) to spend as much as they want.

You'd be surprised how much the top 5% of players spend, usually enough to carry most of the free player base who never spend anything, and I mean they spend so much that it averages a LOT higher than $15er month per player.

  Eir_S

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4697

GW2 socialist.

6/30/13 7:43:33 AM#46
Originally posted by Robokapp

wow isn't. eve isn't.

 

it's the bad p2p games that go f2p. not all of them.

lol.  That's kind of a myopic view.  I don't think Rift is a bad game, even if I don't play it.  And I thought EVE sucked.  Maybe I'm just a "bad" player?  Statements like yours don't work.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

6/30/13 8:13:55 AM#47
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Robokapp

wow isn't. eve isn't.

 

it's the bad p2p games that go f2p. not all of them.

lol.  That's kind of a myopic view.  I don't think Rift is a bad game, even if I don't play it.  And I thought EVE sucked.  Maybe I'm just a "bad" player?  Statements like yours don't work.

Talk about myopic!!

Your whole comment is all about you!

EVE, WoW and DAOC are all great games, even after all these years they are still strong and still have a sub. So obviously you are not the voice of MMO gamers, nor do you represent the current trend.

The very existence of the games I just mentioned proves it.

  kellian1

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 208

6/30/13 8:31:18 AM#48

Having no knowledge other than my opinion this is what I think the reason is.

1 - Companies want to hedge their bets. If they go with a subscription they are banking on people loving their game and willing to pay a monthly fee on top of the box cost for it. If your game is average or worse, chances are it today's MMO market, you won't get alot of subscriptions. Not to mention the pressure of creating new content regularly for your subs.

2 - F2P game has less pressure on on it because it can be a success with fewer people. You don't need anything close to the WoW sub numbers to turn a profit, and being F2P you don't have the same pressure to keep generating content to keep monthly subscriptions. I would imagine the idea is to get people hooked for a few months, get them to pay for a few things (or in the case of real dedicated players buy everything), make some money of each one and then be happy when they move on to another game and stop taking up space on your server.

To me, the best method is to have a F2P game with a subscription option. Meaning players can sub to the game if they really like it and not ever need to bother with the F2P stuff or cash shops. But for those who aren't willing to Sub there is still the FTP option and cash shops for them.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2954

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/30/13 8:31:22 AM#49

My take on it is that in the old days, you'd buy the box and get 1 month free (no sub). Then, you'd be paying a sub for quite some time as you enjoyed the world the MMORPG presented.

Today's MMOs could charge a sub. Most players would be done with the game by the end of the 30 day free period after buying the box. Very few subs would be coming after that.

Instead of remedying this by making worlds for players to visit, they instead start from the ground up by making cash shop items to sustain them and staying with the shallow MMOs put out today.

I do not know what the corollary is, whether it is fewer players in the genre way back when making the sub more profitable, fewer MMOs on the market than today helping to keep players playing and paying, or massively more players now playing massively more games making the F2P model a better bet.

tl/dr: Games today are not worth a subscription fee to play.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  WhiteLantern

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2778

6/30/13 8:38:17 AM#50

"But I hear it tossed around a lot, that P2P games make more money...."

 

Not sure where you are hearing that. I'm not real sure I've heard anyone say that. Ever.

But, apparently, a false presumption makes for a good discussion.

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1804

"I shall take your position into consideration"

6/30/13 8:39:30 AM#51

P2P is more profitable when demand for the product is above certain level.

Once the demand drops below this level, F2P becomes more profitable.

Finance director of the company behind the product meets with other directors at the board of directors meeting or meeting of one of its committees where they present a financial (profitability) analysis. In this analysis, they work with estimates and results of research made by marketing department, etc.

Based on the results of the analysis, the BoD makes a final decision regarding business model of their product.

WoW stays P2P because the demand is still quite strong (allegedly 8m+ subs) and still high above the point where F2P becomes more profitable. They may consider going F2P once the demand decreased below the level I mentioned above.

New AAA games usually start as P2P in order to find out the real level of demand for the product with this business model. Then based on the demand level, they either stick to it or if the demand is below the level at which there is the break point in profitability between F2P and P2P, they switch to F2P.

The cost of sales shouldnt be significantly affected by the business model, so it is mainly about revenues the business model can generate which is directly linked to demand level at certain price.

It is basic microeconomic principle.

TLDR: P2P is more profitable than F2P when the demand for the product exceeds certain point.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

6/30/13 9:16:59 AM#52

Who cares, which of the models is more profitable? I don't.

The problem with F2P-titles is, that they'll never be fair and balanced and the reason why alot of people refer to them as Pay2Win, like I do.

For games that are purely PvE and don't have any competition between players F2P is a perfectly fine business-model. However, as soon as there's PvP involved, then this business-model turns into P2W.

So the real question is, which business-model is needed to keep a level playground between the players, and for everything involving PvP the only options are P2P or B2P. A cashshop in such games may only offer cosmetics or anything that doesn't interfere with the gameplay.

On another note. P2P is still very viable and makes alot of money, but the developers and publishers are greedy b/tards, who want to milk their customers to the last penny. That's why alot of MMOs move from P2P to F2P after some time.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1000

6/30/13 9:35:06 AM#53
Originally posted by Yalexy

Who cares, which of the models is more profitable? I don't.

The problem with F2P-titles is, that they'll never be fair and balanced and the reason why alot of people refer to them as Pay2Win, like I do.

For games that are purely PvE and don't have any competition between players F2P is a perfectly fine business-model. However, as soon as there's PvP involved, then this business-model turns into P2W.

So the real question is, which business-model is needed to keep a level playground between the players, and for everything involving PvP the only options are P2P or B2P. A cashshop in such games may only offer cosmetics or anything that doesn't interfere with the gameplay.

On another note. P2P is still very viable and makes alot of money, but the developers and publishers are greedy b/tards, who want to milk their customers to the last penny. That's why alot of MMOs move from P2P to F2P after some time.

Most games move to F2P because their old or just too bad to support subscriptions.  WoW proves if you make a decent game you can support subscriptions.  To bad these games try to emulate.  But companies have realized you can push out crap and there are people who buy in cash shops that more than make up for the people who aren't going to pay a dime.  Most players are just movie extras to populate the world.

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1300

6/30/13 9:35:21 AM#54

This topic is being over thought by a few.

The age of unique games with quality is gone. Everything is the same. If one of those many many many many clones goes free, it will attract more people. So the others follow in suit. That's pretty well much it. Only a few quality games remain.

I have always felt that F2P will become more and more prominent until it crashes (at least in its current form). I think we will see the return of the sub as new games come out that actually warrant it. Of course, I feel those games with add F2P components as well, but it hopefully won't be this micro-transaction mess that all the F2P believers brought upon us (and they were warned many many times lol).

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11925

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

6/30/13 9:39:10 AM#55
Originally posted by Robokapp   I play a f2p mmo in my eve browser while mining. 

 

Awesomesauce. :)

  Mightyking

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 152

6/30/13 9:43:37 AM#56

2010 Lotro goes F2P.

2011 Turbine CEO gives a presentation about how successful their business model is. 

 

Yet, why have the players seen less content updates since the game went F2P? And where are all these F2P players at endgame level?  Does Turbine not want to invest in their successful game anymore? Or is the business transition not so successful as originally thought?

I am very curious how this is for other games.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/30/13 9:44:05 AM#57

It's hard to leave money sitting on the table.  Every one of us consumers is a potential pile of money to catch. 

If you cast a wide net to catch as many of us as possible, then for each of us, you either catch us or you don't.  Those you miss because the price was too high, you get nothing from.  Those you catch, you only get what you charged, nothing more.

Cash shops give a publisher the ability to look at each potential customer individually and attempt to extract the maximum amount of cash that customer is willing to pay for the game.  If you can keep the marginal cost of a person logging into your servers close to zero, then there is no reason to restrict access.  You want to bring the whole world onto your grid and start running metrics and experiments on what exactly provokes them to open their wallet.

For established games, the subscription fee generates a steady income and you risk losing income from people who are suspicious of cash shops as it slides into the game.   For new games coming into a competitive market or games that are declining anyway, alienation is not as much of a risk.

At the same time, traditional box sale games are coming towards the same cash shop model from the opposite direction - DLC packs are getting smaller and cheaper.  But in the end, it's all about getting rich metrics on what triggers players to buy these small additions.

Thus the cash shop is where game developers who understand in-game player motivation and behaviour meet marketting departments who understand out-of-game consumer behaviour.  United, they obtain the maximum possible payout per customer ... so long as they remember to create a game and as long as the subset of customers who reject cash shops on sight is small and marginalized.

(opinion only, based on interviews I've seen, but not to be mistaken for actual knowledge)

  rawfox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/09
Posts: 599

6/30/13 9:54:50 AM#58
Originally posted by Fendel84M
If this is true, why are almost all the P2P games going F2P? Do they just hate money?

If you ask me, the F2P was a decision by "marketing experts", you know, these 17-22 years old studied people that hardly had sex but know it all better.

Followed by that new principle, the market got flooded with F2P crap games, cash shops and whatever milking mechanix could be played out.

Well, they forgot the game itself with all these milking attempts, we joined countless F2P titles and all had one thing in common: they all been shit.

Ofcause we noticed that and many players turned back to the old but gold P2P games, nice you mentioned Eve.

 

Free to play is a market cash milking mechanic, you 14.- bucks a month aint been enuff, look how we all got fooled by SWTOR and people STILL PLAY IT. Its not over, they are still flooding the market with lousy games, promising the heaven on earth and deliver only new ways how they can get your money.

 

And by all this, noone noticed, that Monsanto is buying up all non-GMO seed companies.

Life itself is a bitch.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10429

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/30/13 9:57:37 AM#59

Sub game make more money at release. F2P games make more money long term. So games release as P2P, then go F2P to maximize the money made.

I suppose it's possible for a F2P game to make a bunch of money at release too, but we haven't really had a good example of it.

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6/30/13 10:03:51 AM#60
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Robokapp

wow isn't. eve isn't.

 

it's the bad p2p games that go f2p. not all of them.

lol.  That's kind of a myopic view.  I don't think Rift is a bad game, even if I don't play it.  And I thought EVE sucked.  Maybe I'm just a "bad" player?  Statements like yours don't work.

Talk about myopic!!

Your whole comment is all about you!

EVE, WoW and DAOC are all great games, even after all these years they are still strong and still have a sub. So obviously you are not the voice of MMO gamers, nor do you represent the current trend.

The very existence of the games I just mentioned proves it.

To give example of game as old as DAOC doesn't make your point relevant for current times. P2P worked in past but it doesn't anymore. Also these games have paid for themselves many time over so they have no reason to go F2P.

And EVE like i mentionedvearlier sin't a pure P2P game since people can use PLEX to buy game time.

WOW in an anamoly and more of an exception than rule. If you want to prove to people that P2P model is still viable and successful you don't use exception as a proof.

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