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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Lead Game Designer on Everquest Next Debunks Non-Consent PVP

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296 posts found
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19104

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/26/13 11:12:52 AM#41
Originally posted by Saryhl

First off there were too many PvP and PvE threads fighting over what Everquest Next is going to be, so instead of answering each one, I made my own thread.

So I grew slighty concerned as well as some of my guild-mates about the idea of the EQ IP being changed from a PvE Centric game to a Non Consensual PVP game.

I opted to Ask a number of the Developers.

The Lead Game Designer  answered, and here it is:

 

So there you have it folks a Bad design decision. Now this most likely means that PvP will continue to be all the rage on the PvP Servers(as it has ALWAYS been) and PvE'ers will continue to be safe from torment while enjoying their gaming experience.

I'll agree that non-consentual PVP is a bad design decision if universally applied, however I'm not so sure your conclusion is sustainable.

They might surprise you with the way they decide to go about this.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17228

6/26/13 11:16:33 AM#42
Originally posted by Fusion

That ain't nothing to do with debunking.

You just read what you wanted to.

Sanbox without PVP is just sims.

And there are people who love the sims. I hear it's very popular.

The problem with these threads is  that one tidbit  from someone at sony is then measured against "an individuals idea" of what constitutes a sandbox.

The only definition that matters is what Sony has in mind as that's the game they are releasing.

so people can go on and on about "what a sandbox is" but unless it's the exact definition that Sony is adhering to then many people are going to be wrong.

 

  FaarmMercy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/13
Posts: 32

6/26/13 11:21:14 AM#43
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

I really don't think so, SOE and Smed have always be pretty good at server rules, i don't think they would consider that bad game design.

 

Smed is also an avid EVE player, who is a member of Goons (arguably one of the most powerful "guilds" in EVE) and is a regular at the FanFest in Iceland. I imagine he would consider the single server system to be a much more eloquent way of expressing a virtual world.

And, since the whole idea of EQN is to be this groundbreaking endeavor, I'd also imagine they would want to push the envelope in as many ways as possible. A single shard massive fantasy world has never been done before, and that would be sure to raise some eyebrows.

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

6/26/13 11:24:35 AM#44
Originally posted by Saryhl
Originally posted by TheJoda
Not much really said at all.......You can read that 100's different ways.

It can only be read in the context of the question being answered. That is will it be forced on players who do not want it. The answer, That would be a poor design decision.

I understand people want to live in their little world of believing they are right, but that gets old when the truth hammer hits you and they still deny it.

could  also mean all servers will have a form of PvP, just not non-consensual as that would be a bad decision. Not all pvp is non-consensual.  

Edit: Not saying that it will be that way - just saying you are living in your own little world also. There will be answers August 2nd - why not wait and see.

Currently bored with MMO's.

  niceguy3978

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 1995

6/26/13 11:25:31 AM#45
Originally posted by Saryhl
Originally posted by TheJoda
Not much really said at all.......You can read that 100's different ways.

It can only be read in the context of the question being answered. That is will it be forced on players who do not want it. The answer, That would be a poor design decision.

I understand people want to live in their little world of believing they are right, but that gets old when the truth hammer hits you and they still deny it.

Maybe he doesn't think forced pvp is a bad design decision?  I don't really like the idea of forced pvp, but that doesn't make it a good or bad design decision, it just means I don't like it.  Bad design decision to him could mean that their is faction pvp but not ffa kill your neighbor pvp.  Or ffa pvp with no consequences could be a bad design decision to him so they designed it with ffa pvp but with penalties of some kind.  In the context of your question there are dozens of potential "bad design decisions."  I have never seen a game where players took such tiny bits of information and made such sweeping inferences from them.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/26/13 11:26:39 AM#46
Originally posted by Saryhl

First off there were too many PvP and PvE threads fighting over what Everquest Next is going to be, so instead of answering each one, I made my own thread.

So I grew slighty concerned as well as some of my guild-mates about the idea of the EQ IP being changed from a PvE Centric game to a Non Consensual PVP game.

I opted to Ask a number of the Developers.

The Lead Game Designer  answered, and here it is:

 

 

So there you have it folks a Bad design decision. Now this most likely means that PvP will continue to be all the rage on the PvP Servers(as it has ALWAYS been) and PvE'ers will continue to be safe from torment while enjoying their gaming experience.

Spoken like a true PR flack or politician... ^^  Avoiding Bad Design Decisions is usually a Good Idea (tm)... ^^  But keep in mind that judgement plays a role in deciding what a Bad Design Decision is, and that dear old Smed brought us the NGE, so I'd not really trust his judgement that much...^^

If they wanted to be open and above board, they would simply state in clear terms what type of PvP EQN would have.  The fact that they aren't being open, speaks volumes.

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

6/26/13 11:28:15 AM#47
Originally posted by niceguy3978
Originally posted by Saryhl
Originally posted by TheJoda
Not much really said at all.......You can read that 100's different ways.

It can only be read in the context of the question being answered. That is will it be forced on players who do not want it. The answer, That would be a poor design decision.

I understand people want to live in their little world of believing they are right, but that gets old when the truth hammer hits you and they still deny it.

Maybe he doesn't think forced pvp is a bad design decision?  I don't really like the idea of forced pvp, but that doesn't make it a good or bad design decision, it just means I don't like it.  Bad design decision to him could mean that their is faction pvp but not ffa kill your neighbor pvp.  Or ffa pvp with no consequences could be a bad design decision to him so they designed it with ffa pvp but with penalties of some kind.  In the context of your question there are dozens of potential "bad design decisions."  I have never seen a game where players took such tiny bits of information and made such sweeping inferences from them.

I agree.  Instead of waiting until 8/2/13  a little over 1 month from now they are blowing every little vague statement out of proportion.  which is, in my opinion, why SOE answers every question vaguely. So that people will jump and shout and give free word of mouth for the game.

Currently bored with MMO's.

  Dudehog

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/12
Posts: 119

6/26/13 11:28:44 AM#48
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Dudehog
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

The flagging system of SWG is actually better than full open world pvp in my opinion. There was nothing more fun than going into Coronet flagged on my jedi or main and walking around all the other players too afraid to go overt and attack me because they didn't want to die and  become flagged for pvp themselves.

But you don't have a problem with different server rules do you?   As long as you can PVP on a PVP server you and all the other PVPers(i play Age Of Wulin but i don't want my favorite pve built on pvp) should be happy, right?

You don't need different server rules if you use a flagging system. If you don't want to pvp then just stay neutral and don't attack anyone who is red. You can sit back and watch the fighting as a spectator.

Besides, it adds to the atmosphere of the game to have people with different preferences regarding pve and pvp all sharing the same space.

But i'm saying if they have different server rules you won't mind, will you? After all you can still PVP on a server where everyone else shares your passion for PVPing, why wouldn't you be happy.

If there are not enough pvpers to fill the server then it obvious that it's not as popular as some of you would have us believe.

The main thing is that you can PVP, right?

Why would i want to be a spectator, i play other PVP games that are built on that system.

Any decent mmo shouldn't be able to split up the game into servers of pve or pvp only. Both aspects should be tied into one another so they are both essential.

I don't care if you want to be a spectator or not. I'm just saying the option is there and a different server isn't necessary. Not everything in the game will be catered to your own preferences.

  Iadien

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/04
Posts: 646

6/26/13 11:33:19 AM#49
Originally posted by bcbully

You kidding right?

 

"We avoid bad decisions"

Thank god they will not listen to you people who want another themepark with housing, in a world with no risk reward, where you are safe to insult act an ass and not get touched because you don't consent.

 

that's what that statement means to me.

If EQ was EVER about PVP first, the people that are expecting this game to force PVP might have a valid point, but it never has.

I dislike forced PVP, most days I have at most an hour to play, I don't want to spend that hour trying to avoid people with far too much free time on their hands waiting to kill me repeatedly.

  Koroshiya

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/18/05
Posts: 223

Live with love, and love will find you.

6/26/13 11:36:14 AM#50
Originally posted by Saryhl
Originally posted by TheJoda
Not much really said at all.......You can read that 100's different ways.

It can only be read in the context of the question being answered. That is will it be forced on players who do not want it. The answer, That would be a poor design decision.

I understand people want to live in their little world of believing they are right, but that gets old when the truth hammer hits you and they still deny it.

no it doesn't it just says they aren't into bad design decisions.  That could mean HE considers pvp a bad design decision but here is a hint how gaming world works:

Designers have ZERO final say over anything that goes in game.  ZERO.  They can "suggest" but they have to get their designs approved, the producer and studio heads will have the final say and if they want non-consent pvp they will get it regardless of what this guy thinks or says.

That said it could mean what you want it to, but just like with the open pvp comment smed made, I'm not believing crap until its released.

“The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness” – Bob Marley

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

6/26/13 11:43:41 AM#51
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Saryhl

First off there were too many PvP and PvE threads fighting over what Everquest Next is going to be, so instead of answering each one, I made my own thread.

So I grew slighty concerned as well as some of my guild-mates about the idea of the EQ IP being changed from a PvE Centric game to a Non Consensual PVP game.

I opted to Ask a number of the Developers.

The Lead Game Designer  answered, and here it is:

 

 

So there you have it folks a Bad design decision. Now this most likely means that PvP will continue to be all the rage on the PvP Servers(as it has ALWAYS been) and PvE'ers will continue to be safe from torment while enjoying their gaming experience.

Spoken like a true PR flack or politician... ^^  Avoiding Bad Design Decisions is usually a Good Idea (tm)... ^^  But keep in mind that judgement plays a role in deciding what a Bad Design Decision is, and that dear old Smed brought us the NGE, so I'd not really trust his judgement that much...^^

If they wanted to be open and above board, they would simply state in clear terms what type of PvP EQN would have.  The fact that they aren't being open, speaks volumes.

It is a great marketing ploy. Let everyone discuss pvp pro or con for a month in context of EGN, EQN gets a ton of word of mouth, is on everyone's lips. Do this by answering vaguely every question put to them - been working fine so far.

Currently bored with MMO's.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3466

6/26/13 11:47:36 AM#52
I dont want FFA PvP but this means nothing. This really could mean there will be server types. Flagging system, AA style 2 continents, one for open world PvP and one for PvE. You can read just about anything from that.
  GrumpyHobbit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/23/13
Posts: 20

6/26/13 11:52:00 AM#53

Of course the FFA PvP'ers want non-consensual PvP. Otherwise they wouldn't have anyone to play with.

 

As for the quote. You could read the reply either way really. So not point worrying about it, just wait till August.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2940

6/26/13 11:52:27 AM#54
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Saryhl

First off there were too many PvP and PvE threads fighting over what Everquest Next is going to be, so instead of answering each one, I made my own thread.

So I grew slighty concerned as well as some of my guild-mates about the idea of the EQ IP being changed from a PvE Centric game to a Non Consensual PVP game.

I opted to Ask a number of the Developers.

The Lead Game Designer  answered, and here it is:

 

 

So there you have it folks a Bad design decision. Now this most likely means that PvP will continue to be all the rage on the PvP Servers(as it has ALWAYS been) and PvE'ers will continue to be safe from torment while enjoying their gaming experience.

Spoken like a true PR flack or politician... ^^  Avoiding Bad Design Decisions is usually a Good Idea (tm)... ^^  But keep in mind that judgement plays a role in deciding what a Bad Design Decision is, and that dear old Smed brought us the NGE, so I'd not really trust his judgement that much...^^

If they wanted to be open and above board, they would simply state in clear terms what type of PvP EQN would have.  The fact that they aren't being open, speaks volumes.

It is a great marketing ploy. Let everyone discuss pvp pro or con for a month in context of EGN, EQN gets a ton of word of mouth, is on everyone's lips. Do this by answering vaguely every question put to them - been working fine so far.

It's working INCREDIBLY well !

 

They WANT to generate discussion, arguments and forum traffic.

 

By continuing to neither confirm nor deny anything but the absolutely wildest speculation, the SOE team allows all agendas to remain viable. That means everyone keeps on enthusiastically arguing that THEIR interpretation of the latest enigmatic phrase is the correct one.

  koboldfodder

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 367

6/26/13 12:00:32 PM#55

There is no reason to try to re-invent the wheel.  EQ's original PVP ruleset servers are ideal for EQ Next.  Those three servers were great fun.  Here is what you can expect:

 

Racial Teams PVP:  Elves, Half Elves and High Elves

                                     Humans, Barbarians and Erudites

                                     Trolls, Iksars, Dark Elves and Ogres

                                     Gnomes, Dwarves and Halflings

-You could loot all coin on an enemy plus one item, and there was a 8 level range difference where you could attack/be attacked.

 

Free for All PVP:  Anyone could attack anyone with coin loot and there was a 4 level difference.  This was the least popular of the PVP servers.

 

If they wanted to add another type of server they could add teams Diety server where you had Goods VS Neutrals VS Evils.  This would allow some odd race/class/religion choices.

 

I think the MOST important thing about original EQ PVP was that there was NO SAFE ZONEs and no level limits.  So as soon as you entered the world you could be attacked.  The other crucial thing was the one item loot.  Coin loot is meaningless, everyone banked.  And full item loot is a massive hassle.  But one item loot was great.  You went out but were still fearful because you did not want to get ganked and lose a precious item....

 

I am awful at PVP, always have been and always will be, but I will be playing on a one item loot server/diety based teams if there is one.  It ramps up the fun level dramatically.

 

But again, the KEY part is no safe zones, and ONE ITEM loot and all levels can PVP as soon as you enter the game.  If you stray just a little bit, you open the way for exploits.

 

  Ujirik

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 457

6/26/13 12:01:35 PM#56

It's better if you don't worry about it.  You won't get anything more than a few vague answers that sound like something you want to hear.  SOE is just trying to get a lot of attention and build up hype at the moment.  It's what they do and they're good at it.  I won't be surprised if Smedley starts apologizing a week after release due to extremely disappointed players. 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2440

World > Quest Progression

6/26/13 12:03:39 PM#57
It's funny that some us believe that SoE is building something truly groundbreaking and next gen yet don't trust that they will get something like PvP implementation right.

Since we know nothing exactly yet how's about we hope for what we want? Convincing each other that what we want should be in EQN is fine but gets wierd when jabs start coming across.
  Dullahan

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 754

Death to Themepark.

6/26/13 12:04:11 PM#58
Originally posted by koboldfodder

There is no reason to try to re-invent the wheel.  EQ's original PVP ruleset servers are ideal for EQ Next.  Those three servers were great fun.  Here is what you can expect:

 

Racial Teams PVP:  Elves, Half Elves and High Elves

                                     Humans, Barbarians and Erudites

                                     Trolls, Iksars, Dark Elves and Ogres

                                     Gnomes, Dwarves and Halflings

-You could loot all coin on an enemy plus one item, and there was a 8 level range difference where you could attack/be attacked.

 

Free for All PVP:  Anyone could attack anyone with coin loot and there was a 4 level difference.  This was the least popular of the PVP servers.

 

If they wanted to add another type of server they could add teams Diety server where you had Goods VS Neutrals VS Evils.  This would allow some odd race/class/religion choices.

 

I think the MOST important thing about original EQ PVP was that there was NO SAFE ZONEs and no level limits.  So as soon as you entered the world you could be attacked.  The other crucial thing was the one item loot.  Coin loot is meaningless, everyone banked.  And full item loot is a massive hassle.  But one item loot was great.  You went out but were still fearful because you did not want to get ganked and lose a precious item....

 

I am awful at PVP, always have been and always will be, but I will be playing on a one item loot server/diety based teams if there is one.  It ramps up the fun level dramatically.

 

But again, the KEY part is no safe zones, and ONE ITEM loot and all levels can PVP as soon as you enter the game.  If you stray just a little bit, you open the way for exploits.

 

Race wars servers had no item loot.

Rallos Zek (FFA PvP +- 4 Levels) was the only one, which is why it was the least popular while still a well populated server.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

6/26/13 12:13:13 PM#59

Good news I guess.

 

After they started talking about pvp, I thought about how I'd actually prefer if the game had some open pvp (which normally doesn't interest me).  

 

But not if it's just going to be FFA get ganked anywhere for no reason PVP.    So assuming they want to add meaningful PVP to the game but don't want it to be to the detriment of people that aren't interested in just getting pointlessly ganked while raising skills, that's the direction I'd like it to head anyway.

  dandurin

Elite Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 449

6/26/13 12:52:37 PM#60

Another Rorschach Test quote.

 

And more useless than most. 

 

It could be implying "open world PVP is bad design" or he could mean "our version of open world PVP is good design, you'll like it more than you can imagine".

 

 

 

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