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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » The target is a small audience: but how will that keep a PvP MMO like CU interesting long term

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39 posts found
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5979

 
OP  6/23/13 6:14:49 PM#1
The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

 

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

 

PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

 

Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

 

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

  tinuelle

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 290

It's all about pushing the right buttons

6/23/13 6:21:48 PM#2
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

Even a dead squirrel with half a brain could come up with such a prophecy. Do better..... Predict what will be the bad game designs.

When you leap after Nostradamus, do it properly.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

6/23/13 6:22:11 PM#3
Originally posted by MMOExposed

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

 

That's not what the game is at all...

  Ghavrigg

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 719

6/23/13 6:26:21 PM#4
All I know is, they better not have the maps too large, because the last thing they need, is a very small playerbase spread out over a huge area.
  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

6/23/13 6:31:19 PM#5

Hmm ... maybe something similar to Daoc which is 12 years old despite being managed horribly for many years.

 

CU will be more about what works in RvR vs padding it with pointless pve grind. It only requires enough players to fill a very few servers. Having 20 servers vs 5 servers means nothing to each individual server.

You stay sassy!

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

6/23/13 6:35:00 PM#6
Originally posted by tinuelle
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

Even a dead squirrel with half a brain could come up with such a prophecy. Do better..... Predict what will be the bad game designs.

When you leap after Nostradamus, do it properly.

I've learned to ignore doomsayers (mostly). They predict doom and gloom only because they fear personal disappointment. They avoid it instead of facing up to it. These people live fearful lives and never try anything new because of it. Pity them ... don't mock them.

You stay sassy!

  Toxia

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 1292

6/23/13 6:44:16 PM#7
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by MMOExposed

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

 

That's not what the game is at all...

Um...yes it is.

Mark Jacobs: Camelot Unchained, unlike the vast majority of MMORPGs, is tightly focused and RvR-oriented. It will also draw a lot of inspiration from the works of people like H.P. Lovecraft and H.R. Giger rather than J.R.R. Tolkien. As all character leveling comes from RvR and crafting, it bears no resemblance to the modern, theme park-style titles.

The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  Ghavrigg

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 719

6/23/13 7:07:53 PM#8
Originally posted by Toxia
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by MMOExposed

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

 

That's not what the game is at all...

Um...yes it is.

Mark Jacobs: Camelot Unchained, unlike the vast majority of MMORPGs, is tightly focused and RvR-oriented. It will also draw a lot of inspiration from the works of people like H.P. Lovecraft and H.R. Giger rather than J.R.R. Tolkien. As all character leveling comes from RvR and crafting, it bears no resemblance to the modern, theme park-style titles.

It's supposed to not be "non-stop PvP". There's likely to be some PvE with little to no rewards, but just for fun, as well as crafting and other crap.The majority of gameplay will be PvP, but there will be more to the game than that, or so MJ has said, at least.

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1132

6/23/13 7:49:03 PM#9
PvP has a better chance of holding players' interest for a few years than PvE. I notice most PvE focused games see their population crater quickly after release because the devs can't add new PvE content faster than players can complete it. If the RvR system and progression are designed well in CU, it could be fun for several years at least. In an RvR game, players create their own content which is new every day you login. Will CU in fact be designed well? Get back to me in late 2015 and I'll give you an answer.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

6/23/13 8:00:58 PM#10
Originally posted by Toxia
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by MMOExposed

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

 

That's not what the game is at all...

Um...yes it is.

Mark Jacobs: Camelot Unchained, unlike the vast majority of MMORPGs, is tightly focused and RvR-oriented.

Except for the MASSIVE amount of crafting going on in the game, which last I checked did not fall under "non stop PvP". There are also going to be mobs to hunt for materials, and boss guardians to certain areas.

 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

6/23/13 8:15:40 PM#11
Maybe the OP hasn't considered the implication of word "niche".  If the developer can fulfill that niche in manner that others don't (EVE does this imo) then there is an incentive for people to stay since they aren't going to get better anywhere else.  Why wouldn't they stay?  It's pretty much a win for both dev and player.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Tuchaka

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/10
Posts: 458

6/23/13 8:20:11 PM#12
   Plenty of MMO's have managed to have a few hundred thousand players actively playing I don't think the size of the target audience has anything to do with if people are gonna stick around and will a game having staying power. If this game has great PvP and gives the PvP community something that is better than the sea of PvE centered games with a PvP function tacked on, it will hang on to its player base.
  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

6/24/13 12:10:02 AM#13
Originally posted by MMOExposed
The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

 

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

 

PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

 

Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

 

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

Troll threads like this are kinda pointless, now.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5979

 
OP  6/24/13 1:11:33 AM#14
Originally posted by Tuchaka
   Plenty of MMO's have managed to have a few hundred thousand players actively playing I don't think the size of the target audience has anything to do with if people are gonna stick around and will a game having staying power. If this game has great PvP and gives the PvP community something that is better than the sea of PvE centered games with a PvP function tacked on, it will hang on to its player base.

Same issue most MMOs are facing now days will hit CU.

some of those are:

 

MMO Inflation-

Payment Model Changing-

Short Term vs Long Term Gameplay Designs-

 

Currently there are too many MMOs coming out. This alone will take population away.

The payment model.  Because of MMO Inflation, and limited gameplay of modern day MMOs, people dont stay long in P2P MMOs that arent Pre-WoW or WoW itself. People are more forgiving of MMOs now days if it doesnt have a sub requirement to play. Look at SWTOR and GW2 for evidence of this.

And the gameplay. As I explained before, the PvP only design is proven not to be a good model for keeping population around. What happens when a faction gets too strong and outmans the other two? Fights get boring, and people leave. When people leave, the game gets more boring . Look at these weekly GW2 fights for evidence of this once again. Population controls PvP focused MMOs. And Population doesnt like to stick around when not having fun. Same issue plagued Warhammer. The Irony... Even your own DAoC fans been telling Mark and his CU staff this, but like in Warhammer, he and his staff refuse to listen to anything others have to say. He seem too bent on short term success. Same issue with Warhammer. Warhammer Warhammer Warhammer, you would think, after that crash, he would have learned by now, but hey, he hasnt. But not like he the only MMO developer that never learns lessons from past failures (EA, Failcom Sony come to mind).

 

I wonder, Has Mark and his staff, even thought about what will keep players interested in playing long term, instead of quick log in sessions? Because when players arent deepy into the game, they will move on to the next big hype train. Thats just how their minds work. Developers now days seem to be too interested in short term goals and milking box sells rather than long term success. Oh well, in one eye and out the other.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5979

 
OP  6/24/13 1:12:06 AM#15
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by MMOExposed
The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

 

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

 

PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

 

Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

 

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

Troll threads like this are kinda pointless, now.

go figure...

  MyownGod

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 202

6/24/13 1:23:40 AM#16
Originally posted by tinuelle
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

Even a dead squirrel with half a brain could come up with such a prophecy. Do better..... Predict what will be the bad game designs.

When you leap after Nostradamus, do it properly.

He's trying his best, no need to word bash him. Why don't you do it better, if ya gonna be a critic.

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

6/26/13 9:57:00 AM#17
Originally posted by MMOExposed
The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

 

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

 

PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

 

Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

 

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

A few things here.

 

First of all I dont see it as "non-stop pvp".  To me that has a strong implication of constant meaningless combat simply for the sake of combat.  Thats not really what this is.  Its a player-driven world where three realms will be fighting each other over strategic territory and resources.

 

Secondly, we simply have much lower population requirements than a PvE MMO.  There isnt instanced content like in other games.  Everyone on a server is out in the same open world PvPing over the same resources and objectives.  It doesnt take very many players to keep that interesting.

Even the deadest of dead MMO servers I've played on had more than enough people to support interesting PvP action if 80+% of the online players werent always locked inside safe zones and instanced content.

 

There is a sizable audience of players who have been looking for a specific type of game.  Nobody else is really providing that.  Those players arent going to randomly leave for no reason when there arent really any other games even trying to appeal to them.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18996

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/26/13 10:34:46 AM#18

I'm currently playing on a single server version of an old game and the reason most of us are there is to do the long term PVP game while the PVE is looked at as something to get through so we can get busy killing each other.

Some folks I'm playing with have been doing this for several years with no sign they want to leave any time soon. (Though they did switch realms just for fun, starting fresh in a new land)

There is (IMO) a niche player base of people who don't want to the next big thing, they just want a quality game play experience that they can settle into for the long haul, which is clearly the target audience CU is after.

To be sure, what CU is trying to do is an experiment and goes against the common "wisdom of the ages," and I'm hoping it works out well for all of us.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1460

6/28/13 10:31:54 AM#19
Originally posted by MMOExposed

I wonder, Has Mark and his staff, even thought about what will keep players interested in playing long term, instead of quick log in sessions? Because when players arent deepy into the game, they will move on to the next big hype train. Thats just how their minds work. Developers now days seem to be too interested in short term goals and milking box sells rather than long term success. Oh well, in one eye and out the other.

Yes, obviously they have thought about it. And as a result they scrapped PvE and withit the power gap, and only target a niche audience.

Just ask youself.. why do ppl play just for a few month in usual themepark games?

There are two answers to this question:

1. they have rushed through the pve content and don't know what to do now.

2. they did not like it and looking for the new game around the corner.

You can't do anything against number 2, because some will try your game and don't like it and leave it at some point. But you can try to do something against number 1.

A lot of developer at this moment try to avoid 1 with digging into a sandbox game and CU tries to focus on pvp. PvP gets never old as long as the game is fun.(bullet point: engaging and meaningful pvp) I have played DAoC for years just doing RvR. The same is true for Dawn of War.. i even play it now a days from time to time or any other game primarly focused on pvp. (CS, BF, LOL, etc.) And it is partially true for EvE (altough the sandbox factor in EvE is another reason for its longevity)

And about the amount of players.

How many players are necessary to fill one server? I would assume something around 5k to 10k of players. That is not really a lot and almost any niche game could get that much players. (EvE and DF are exceptions to that number because of size of their world). So the problem is not so much the amount of players and much more fluctuation of players. And pve games suffer much more from fluctuation as any pvp games... because either you like pvp and that particular pvp game or you don't. You can't rush through content, because basicly there is no content, or any content is created from players.

With other words it would be healthy for CU not to market it big, not to hype it to heaven, not to attract a huge amount of player and just focus on there core members (kickstart founder or players attracted from that one), and build up slowly from that on.. to avoid a huge fluctuation based from reason 2.

Edit/PS: Well as i mentioned power gap i should explain something about it.

One important reason why pvp in mmos got a bad reputation or isnt reviewed as good is the typically power gap in MMOs and the problems, which come with it. Like low level ganking, or generally griefing player with less power like your self. In any usual pvp game (multiplayer) no one with a clear mind would introduce a power gap, because no one like it to get killed without the slightest chance of winning or at least fighting back.

In MMOs it is rather hard to avoid a power gap foremost because of PvE and the necessary progression you need to drive the pve journey(gated content), but in a game without any pve you can focus primarly on pvp and adjust your progression accordingly. (basicly a lot more horizontal progression(more skills, more options) and just a very low vertical progression(increase of Hitpoints or Damage) ... as comparsion look at the progression system of Battlefield 3 or similar pvp games)

  FlyinDutchman87

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/10
Posts: 164

9/18/13 2:05:28 PM#20

Honestly I don't think it will be that big of an issue. How many people does it REALLY take for good PVP.

 

1000?

2000?

5000?

 

Depends on the map size really. But I would think that with a 3 faction game that 300v300v300 would be plenatly of people. 

 

If CU can run 6 servers of 10,000 people then great.  If they can only run 1 server of 10,000 people then great.

 

The game will be a gamble no doubt but gaming is already moving away from copy pasted AAA titles to indy games. Why not do it with an independantly funded MMO studio.

 

CU isn't going to be a AAA title. It's going to be AA at best and likely A.

 

I see it going a bit like Eve online. The game will start with a small dedicated player base and will either grow because it's good or fail because it's bad. Just like games should.

 

 

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