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Pathfinder Online

Pathfinder Online 

General Discussion  » To everyone who wants non-consensual PvP

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51 posts found
  fyerwall

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 3197

6/22/13 11:22:38 PM#21
Originally posted by Incomparable

How is it pvp to consent to killing or dying? That sounds artificial in a sandbox.

OP tries to make it sound like it rape to have non-consentual pvp. If it has pvp in a sandbox there is only one kind in the open world.

trying to change that means its not a sandbox anymore.

Sandbox =/= PvP. Never has, never will.

There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  Jigawatts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/13
Posts: 44

 
OP  6/22/13 11:23:47 PM#22
Originally posted by Incomparable

How is it pvp to consent to killing or dying? That sounds artificial in a sandbox.

OP tries to make it sound like it rape to have non-consentual pvp. If it has pvp in a sandbox there is only one kind in the open world.

trying to change that means its not a sandbox anymore.

Rape?...really? Thats a little extreme. I merely provided info for a game that provides mostly everything PvPers love. And for the record, I am a Kickstarter backer of PO, and will be playing it, and all its non-consensual PvP glory, upon release. With that said it is my hope that non-consensual PvP stays out of Norrath (or is at least divided by separate servers).

  Entinerint

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/22/13 11:26:19 PM#23
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Entinerint
 

Well, no game "needs" anything.  I just think that a game that could pull this off (never seen it done right IMO) would be the most involving, rewarding and dynamic MMO possible.

It would basically have the feel of like Game of Thrones but as an online game.  Incredible.  Granted, it will probably never happen.  Devs always seem to fall short even when they aim for FFA PvP.

I agree with you that would be cool.  But then you would need to put in permadeath as well.  And well...if you thought FFA full loot PvP was unpopular.  lol

Problem with PvP in that structure is that people whom don't really want to play the game can use that to their advantage.  With a F2P it costs them nothing to ruin the community.  And they will.  Respawn after respawn.  New Account created after New Account created.

Aaah, but consider this.

Perma-death could kick in only for the REAL bad apples, with jail-time and fines for lesser criminals.  You commit a LOT of crime and you are sentenced to death.  First, you have to be caught, alive by either players or NPCs.  So those heinous criminals who manage to stay alive will be legendarily notorious.  When caught, you also can't just log out to avoid execution, your character will go through it regardless of you being logged in.  The executions are PUBLIC, so they become a server-wide event where people travel to see this notorious murderer put down for GOOD at a certain time!  Holy crap and then you give the murderer their last words!  What an amazing in-game event that would be.  Screw RP weddings and such, RP executions would be a whole new level of amazing.

As for your second point there are ways around this too.  For example, IP tagging could be used, but someone dedicated could proxy around that.  What you are talking about is the concept of edge-casing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_case).  The smallest minority will be the dedicated griefers and they will always lose no matter what.  Eventually they'll get fed up and go to playgrounds like Darkfall and Mortal where their behavior is not only permitted but encouraged.  A buy-to-play model is the best way of making sure this gets thwarted however.

You see, gankers, griefers and trolls are cowards.  They don't want a fair or even fight.  They don't want a challenge and they are the first cry buckets and "hax" when they get killed.  True PKers and PvPers want challenge and consequence.

  Jigawatts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/13
Posts: 44

 
OP  6/22/13 11:28:47 PM#24
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Jigawatts
 

Since SWG went offline (especially pre-NGE), name the number of non PvP focused sandbox MMO's currently available (in the US).

Second Life.

Man, Second Life, I dont think I have even thought about that game since the episode of The Office where Dwight and Jim play it. Good episode though.

Anyway, this kind of proves my point about the lack of non PvP focused sandbox MMO's.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

6/22/13 11:30:26 PM#25
Originally posted by Incomparable

How is it pvp to consent to killing or dying? That sounds artificial in a sandbox.

OP tries to make it sound like it rape to have non-consentual pvp. If it has pvp in a sandbox there is only one kind in the open world.

trying to change that means its not a sandbox anymore.

PvP is not nor will ever will be part of the definition of a sandbox.  If PvP was the only compelling system needed to claim a game is a sandbox then by your narrow definition WoW is a sandbox.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:32:25 PM#26
Originally posted by Entinerint

Aaah, but consider this.

Perma-death could kick in only for the REAL bad apples, with jail-time and fines for lesser criminals.  You commit a LOT of crime and you are sentenced to death.  First, you have to be caught, alive by either players or NPCs.  So those heinous criminals who manage to stay alive will be legendarily notorious.  When caught, you also can't just log out to avoid execution, your character will go through it regardless of you being logged in.  The executions are PUBLIC, so they become a server-wide event where people travel to see this notorious murderer put down for GOOD at a certain time!  Holy crap and then you give the murderer their last words!  What an amazing in-game event that would be.  Screw RP weddings and such, RP executions would be a whole new level of amazing.

As for your second point there are ways around this too.  For example, IP tagging could be used, but someone dedicated could proxy around that.  What you are talking about is the concept of edge-casing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_case).  The smallest minority will be the dedicated griefers and they will always lose no matter what.  Eventually they'll get fed up and go to playgrounds like Darkfall and Mortal where their behavior is not only permitted but encouraged.  A buy-to-play model is the best way of making sure this gets thwarted however.

You see, gankers, griefers and trolls are cowards.  They don't want a fair or even fight.  They don't want a challenge and they are the first cry buckets and "hax" when they get killed.  True PKers and PvPers want challenge and consequence.

Interesting ideas.  I like a lot of the concepts you brought up.  However I think you're downplaying the number of people that will play a game for free to abuse a system.  We've seen it plenty before with F2P games.  As long as there's a structure in place that makes it more difficult with consequences, the better off the game and community will be. 

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

6/22/13 11:32:37 PM#27
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Entinerint
 

Well, no game "needs" anything.  I just think that a game that could pull this off (never seen it done right IMO) would be the most involving, rewarding and dynamic MMO possible.

It would basically have the feel of like Game of Thrones but as an online game.  Incredible.  Granted, it will probably never happen.  Devs always seem to fall short even when they aim for FFA PvP.

I agree with you that would be cool.  But then you would need to put in permadeath as well.  And well...if you thought FFA full loot PvP was unpopular.  lol

Problem with PvP in that structure is that people whom don't really want to play the game can use that to their advantage.  With a F2P it costs them nothing to ruin the community.  And they will.  Respawn after respawn.  New Account created after New Account created.

Aaah, but consider this.

Perma-death could kick in only for the REAL bad apples, with jail-time and fines for lesser criminals.  You commit a LOT of crime and you are sentenced to death.  First, you have to be caught, alive by either players or NPCs.  So those heinous criminals who manage to stay alive will be legendarily notorious.  When caught, you also can't just log out to avoid execution, your character will go through it regardless of you being logged in.  The executions are PUBLIC, so they become a server-wide event where people travel to see this notorious murderer put down for GOOD at a certain time!  Holy crap and then you give the murderer their last words!  What an amazing in-game event that would be.  Screw RP weddings and such, RP executions would be a whole new level of amazing.

As for your second point there are ways around this too.  For example, IP tagging could be used, but someone dedicated could proxy around that.  What you are talking about is the concept of edge-casing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_case).  The smallest minority will be the dedicated griefers and they will always lose no matter what.  Eventually they'll get fed up and go to playgrounds like Darkfall and Mortal where their behavior is not only permitted but encouraged.  A buy-to-play model is the best way of making sure this gets thwarted however.

You see, gankers, griefers and trolls are cowards.  They don't want a fair or even fight.  They don't want a challenge and they are the first cry buckets and "hax" when they get killed.  True PKers and PvPers want challenge and consequence.

In my 14 years experience of MMO gameplay Gankers, Griefers and Trolls (as you so elegantly stated) are the norm when it comes to FFA PvP.  To claim they aren't is a fallacy to be quite honest about it. 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:34:21 PM#28
Originally posted by Jigawatts
 

Man, Second Life, I dont think I have even thought about that game since the episode of The Office where Dwight and Jim play it. Good episode though.

Anyway, this kind of proves my point about the lack of non PvP focused sandbox MMO's.

LOL well to be fair, It took me a second to think about it.  I almost said Minecraft, but that's not Massive with the need for a private server hosting thing.

  Entinerint

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

6/22/13 11:42:34 PM#29
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Entinerint
 

Well, no game "needs" anything.  I just think that a game that could pull this off (never seen it done right IMO) would be the most involving, rewarding and dynamic MMO possible.

It would basically have the feel of like Game of Thrones but as an online game.  Incredible.  Granted, it will probably never happen.  Devs always seem to fall short even when they aim for FFA PvP.

I agree with you that would be cool.  But then you would need to put in permadeath as well.  And well...if you thought FFA full loot PvP was unpopular.  lol

Problem with PvP in that structure is that people whom don't really want to play the game can use that to their advantage.  With a F2P it costs them nothing to ruin the community.  And they will.  Respawn after respawn.  New Account created after New Account created.

Aaah, but consider this.

Perma-death could kick in only for the REAL bad apples, with jail-time and fines for lesser criminals.  You commit a LOT of crime and you are sentenced to death.  First, you have to be caught, alive by either players or NPCs.  So those heinous criminals who manage to stay alive will be legendarily notorious.  When caught, you also can't just log out to avoid execution, your character will go through it regardless of you being logged in.  The executions are PUBLIC, so they become a server-wide event where people travel to see this notorious murderer put down for GOOD at a certain time!  Holy crap and then you give the murderer their last words!  What an amazing in-game event that would be.  Screw RP weddings and such, RP executions would be a whole new level of amazing.

As for your second point there are ways around this too.  For example, IP tagging could be used, but someone dedicated could proxy around that.  What you are talking about is the concept of edge-casing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_case).  The smallest minority will be the dedicated griefers and they will always lose no matter what.  Eventually they'll get fed up and go to playgrounds like Darkfall and Mortal where their behavior is not only permitted but encouraged.  A buy-to-play model is the best way of making sure this gets thwarted however.

You see, gankers, griefers and trolls are cowards.  They don't want a fair or even fight.  They don't want a challenge and they are the first cry buckets and "hax" when they get killed.  True PKers and PvPers want challenge and consequence.

In my 14 years experience of MMO gameplay Gankers, Griefers and Trolls (as you so elegantly stated) are the norm when it comes to FFA PvP.  To claim they aren't is a fallacy to be quite honest about it. 

I've been playing MMOs since Meridian 59, you ain't gotta tell me, heh.

I think that is true but it's bred by the thing the games encourage.  UO wasn't nearly as bad as, say Darkfall.  Even MO has a good size community of anti-PKs that kept things in check.  Darkfall, IMO had by far the worst community in all of gaming history.  Worse than COD, worse than WoW, worse than LoL.  The community was a product of what the game developers encouraged with their design.

Can we reverse this epidemic and have an FFA PvP game that isn't all about ganking and griefing?  Honestly I don't know.  Do I think that someone with resources should try?  Hell yes they should.  If you disallow the cowards to have the upper hand they will either go away or change their tunes.  They won't have any other choices...

Someday someone will make a game that finds that balance.  Will it be EQN?  We can hope I guess, but I'm not one to put my eggs all in one basket.  Still, they seem to be trying SOMETHING different and I hope it works out for them.

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:45:57 PM#30
Yep, at least these guys have committed to saying what they will be doing.  SoE is all smoke and mirrors at the moment.  The FFA PvP mob are setting themselves for an epic let-down with EQNext.
  wordiz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/12
Posts: 481

6/22/13 11:49:00 PM#31
Looks like it could be cool. Good lookin OP. The graphics/art style is pretty terrible, but nothing good gameplay can't overcome. 

http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/

  Stiler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

6/23/13 12:06:14 AM#32

The ONLY full FFA PVP sandbox mmo's we have had since Ultima Online have been indie mmo's that have struggled with TINY budgets that have no where near the polish or marketing, etc behind them as a AAA game.

Would it REALLY be so terrible for us sandbox FFA PVP lovers to have ONE, just ONE single AAA Budget mmo that tried it again since UO?

 

Meanwhile you have:

WoW

Tera

TSW

AOC

Neverwinter

DC online

Elder Scrolls online

Guild Wars 2

Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn

Wildstar

SW:TOR

Rift

etc. The list of high budget PVE focused mmo's goes on and on.

 

So can we please, have a single new AAA budget mmo? Pretty please? Just one, we haven't had one for over a decade.

  bexinh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 71

6/23/13 12:21:13 AM#33
PvP any type isnt so bad. Im not a PvPer but i dont mind to have some PvP at all. But the game full of PvP is totally not for me. This is why i really expect EQn to have PvE part like raids world event that sort of things. I dont mind being a leveling noob then get ganked by a group of ppl or even with a higher level player for once or twice but if they keep doing that to stop me from leveling is what will really piss me off. And that really the type of the game i will stay away from. Not much of news on EQn out right now... all we can do is wait and see. Ive been shopping around for a little while to look for a game that i can stick along for a few years but EQn is totally on top of my list. Hopefully i wont get disappointed.
  Jigawatts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/13
Posts: 44

 
OP  6/23/13 12:28:07 AM#34
Originally posted by Stiler

The ONLY full FFA PVP sandbox mmo's we have had since Ultima Online have been indie mmo's that have struggled with TINY budgets that have no where near the polish or marketing, etc behind them as a AAA game.

Would it REALLY be so terrible for us sandbox FFA PVP lovers to have ONE, just ONE single AAA Budget mmo that tried it again since UO?

 

Meanwhile you have:

WoW

Tera

TSW

AOC

Neverwinter

DC online

Elder Scrolls online

Guild Wars 2

Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn

Wildstar

SW:TOR

Rift

etc. The list of high budget PVE focused mmo's goes on and on.

 

So can we please, have a single new AAA budget mmo? Pretty please? Just one, we haven't had one for over a decade.

How can I put this succinctly...what I (and I think many others who share my preference) are wanting is not a "PvE game", as you put it. Indeed you list many PvE focused games (aka Themeparks)  that people may partake in. But rather what we are wanting is a challenging immersive fantasy based online world, one where we explore, and craft, and build, and resource hunt, and so many other things (aka a "sandbox"), in addition to the fighting of monsters the game provides....but without being forced to fight other players at their whim.

I want a virtual world to live and breathe in, not a "PvE game". Unforetunately, things have devolved to such a point where if you dont label yourself "PvP", you are labeled "PvE", like their is absolutely nothing in between.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

6/23/13 12:31:52 AM#35
Originally posted by Stiler

The ONLY full FFA PVP sandbox mmo's we have had since Ultima Online have been indie mmo's that have struggled with TINY budgets that have no where near the polish or marketing, etc behind them as a AAA game.

Would it REALLY be so terrible for us sandbox FFA PVP lovers to have ONE, just ONE single AAA Budget mmo that tried it again since UO?

 

Meanwhile you have:

WoW

Tera

TSW

AOC

Neverwinter

DC online

Elder Scrolls online

Guild Wars 2

Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn

Wildstar

SW:TOR

Rift

etc. The list of high budget PVE focused mmo's goes on and on.

 

So can we please, have a single new AAA budget mmo? Pretty please? Just one, we haven't had one for over a decade.

All titles you present are Themeparks and everyone of them present with PvP as an option.

 

Is it so hard to ask for someone, anyone, HELL even an indie studio with tiny budgets and piss poor polish to make a PvE centric "Sandbox" game seeing as there isn't one for us, where you guys have the option of several titles currently on the market and many more coming out In the near future.  Like Repopulation, Star Citizen, Pathfinder, Camelot Unchained and ArcheAge.  All we Sandbox PvE players have is EQNext and that's basing our hopes on the franchise selling points.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2627

6/23/13 12:46:46 AM#36

Thanks for the information, but beta doesn't even start for 2ish years, so it could be 2.5 to 3 years before this is done.  I am interested in the game, but I am not interested in watching something closely that could be 3 years out.

 

Hopefully they have the money to finish it.  Just something that is nearly 3 years out isn't going to help people in the short term though.

 

  kellian1

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 208

6/23/13 12:49:28 AM#37
Originally posted by Xthos

Thanks for the information, but beta doesn't even start for 2ish years, so it could be 2.5 to 3 years before this is done.  I am interested in the game, but I am not interested in watching something closely that could be 3 years out.

 

Hopefully they have the money to finish it.  Just something that is nearly 3 years out isn't going to help people in the short term though.

 

According to Mr. Reliability "Players will get their hands on an actual release version of what we’re doing late [this] year – and I don’t mean a beta,” says Smedley.

But since we just love quoting this fountain of misinformation here...there ya go

  fyerwall

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 3197

6/23/13 12:58:04 AM#38
Originally posted by kellian1
Originally posted by Xthos

Thanks for the information, but beta doesn't even start for 2ish years, so it could be 2.5 to 3 years before this is done.  I am interested in the game, but I am not interested in watching something closely that could be 3 years out.

 

Hopefully they have the money to finish it.  Just something that is nearly 3 years out isn't going to help people in the short term though.

 

According to Mr. Reliability "Players will get their hands on an actual release version of what we’re doing late [this] year – and I don’t mean a beta,” says Smedley.

But since we just love quoting this fountain of misinformation here...there ya go

I think Xthos is referring to Pathfinder, not EQ Next

There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  T800

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 5

6/23/13 1:19:26 AM#39
Originally posted by Jigawatts

How can I put this succinctly...what I (and I think many others who share my preference) are wanting is not a "PvE game", as you put it. Indeed you list many PvE focused games (aka Themeparks)  that people may partake in. But rather what we are wanting is a challenging immersive fantasy based online world, one where we explore, and craft, and build, and resource hunt, and so many other things (aka a "sandbox"), in addition to the fighting of monsters the game provides....but without being forced to fight other players at their whim.

 

I appreciate what you and other posters who express a desire for a PVE Sandbox want. I want many of the same things in a game, but the last part of what you say is so critical that it pretty much puts us at a complete and total impasse.

To use your phrasing, what I (and I think many others who share my preference) want - in addition to the exploration, crafting, building, resource hunting that you very reasonably want - is not a PVP gankfest but a game with meaningful PVP. In the context of those other game elements, that means PVP where players can fight each other for control of territory, for access to the resources used in crafting or building, and for the authority to make and enforce laws in the game world.

 

It's a vision totally incompatible with the ability to choose whether or not to participate in PVP because as soon as you allow players to toggle a flag and go harvest whatever resources they desire, to build whatever and wherever they want, then you remove the very element - access to and control over those resources, buildings, and territories - that we want to be the driving force for conflict in the game.

 

Making PVP optional makes the PVP about as meaningful as, say, open world PVP on WoW. If we wanted that we'd play WoW, but many  PVPers avoid games like that because, as I said, we want meaningful PVP. PVP that actually impacts the game. I don't want to gank someone out in the middle of nowhere for no reason. There's games or servers I can do that on already. What I want is a game where there are reasons in the game to do so.

 

PFO promises to be what I describe; well, call me greedy, but I would like EQNext to be that also. I'm really excited about PFO but it's being developed on shoestring budget, so, yes, I'd like to see a big time game with similar design parameters. Ideally there would be many games to choose from with similar design parameters.

 

  Zeppelin8

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/09
Posts: 18

6/23/13 8:03:03 AM#40

In every other post, there is a sophisticated definition of sandbox. Then we would all agree, that a sandbox should be non-linear adventure, where player characters should differ from each other to some extent. Player driven economy would add to that non-linear feeling. A meaningful open-world PVP would add to it as well. It is not structured  or non-structured, I shall call it natural pvp.

There are many players that are willing to commit in PVP for the sake of killing others. You would argue that this is stupid and yes, I agree. If there is a 2-3 faction pvp, it would make more sense, if you get the lore and the feel right. Then again, coming back to ffa setting; you can stop griefing to some extent by giving player killers heavy penalties. Also, you can give bonuses to player that do not kill others.

I myself wanna be a crafter and for that, I am willing to get killed by others. For me that is the thrill. Being a newbie adventurer sounds nice too.

Not everybody have the same taste. I would like to have non consensual FFA PVP (under a certain meaningful ruleset - penalties for example, not allowing griefing or res killing), even if I were to suck at PVP.

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