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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » I hate EVE online

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231 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 3:04:20 PM#101
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Stand and do nothing while you trade (aka wow ah) compared to trade while you travel, surely you can finally see based on this simple comparison that it's not as simple as travel = bad.

Your example involves decision-making (gameplay), a decision (gameplay), and an instant result.

Between that gameplay and the next, there is no gap.  And any gap of non-gameplay which does exist isn't ideal except in very small spurts (like a movie using establishing shots to indicate travel happening; they don't show 2 hours of real-time travel, they should 5-15 seconds of establishing shots to enter the next 2-10 minute scene.)

If you pointed out that a player leaving the AH to quest will have travel time in WOW, I would agree that in most cases that's not as fun as GW2's instant waypoint system where you avoid repeat travel.

It's a matter of poorly justified timesinks.  I find just as much fun and depth in games without these arbitrary non-gameplay timesinks than games with them.

EVE's timesinks would actually be better if they were genuinely AFKable.  I've enjoyed several online strategy games where you log in, make some decisions, then wait several hours for those decisions to happen.  But you're not forced to sit around with the app open for those things to happen, you can close it down and do something else.  Unfortunately EVE is in this bad zone where it feels like you should be able to AFK this empty non-gameplay, but it's actually a very bad idea to do so because 0.5% of the time it matters that you're not AFK.

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3129

6/21/13 3:05:21 PM#102
No point you don't listen.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3129

6/21/13 3:06:23 PM#103
Your right everyone else must be wrong.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

6/21/13 3:10:05 PM#104
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Lol that's not what your doing at all axe, you running into a rock concert and telling all the people that are having a great time that you are a designer and they are not having a good time. Bizzare eh.

I think we have enough discussion by sticking to things I've actually said.

(Good luck finding a quote where I said or implied EVE players aren't having fun.)

...other than the post where you said exactly that.

  ILanedraexI

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/06
Posts: 2

6/21/13 3:13:07 PM#105

Well, what Axe is saying is both right and wrong, let me go deep into why I think this:

Travelling in EVE is boring as hell, at the Start!

When you're a newbie, you don't know anything about the game, you don't know how to use the Market or how to do anything than follow the tutorial. So it may feel like you're being force into doing nothing for quite some time (some early missions will make you travel a little longer than just your usual "warp to deadspace" and it makes things really worse).

My gf fell asleep whatching me play the "early game" that EVE has, but I know it takes some effort at the beggining to really enjoy things (everything in life is better if you had to make an effort for it)

Then, after this early stage, travelling in EVE is really great!

You know how to use the market and while you travel you can look things up, learn about stuff, and go deeper and deeper into the game. While you can say that you could do this on some other games (like while you travel in WoW) you don't really need to, because the actual depth of a game like WoW is very basic. 

Problem is that "fun" and "gameplay" are usually really tied to "action action action" and Axe doesn't seem to think that doing Market stuff while you travel in a game can be considered part of the fun and the gameplay (action action action).

That's why people tend to avoid EVE or just become really bored.

We live in a generation of "I want it NOW", it's completely justified that most game developers try to cater to this, they would be stupid not to. You have to sell your game.

EVE and it's "boring" mechanics (that are not really boring) have appeal only to a niche community, that might increase with time (or so I hope).

  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

6/21/13 3:19:34 PM#106

 

Back to the OP, I didn't read all the answers but, press Escape, Reset Tutorial State, go about your business.

EvE is a deep game and I recall when I started 5 years ago that some things seemed counter-intuitive etc even though I had played games like the X series, freelancer, etc to death.

Don't expect to get everything on day one, it won't happen.

 

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Kravis

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/07
Posts: 182

6/21/13 4:43:39 PM#107


Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Bladestrom Stand and do nothing while you trade (aka wow ah) compared to trade while you travel, surely you can finally see based on this simple comparison that it's not as simple as travel = bad.
Your example involves decision-making (gameplay), a decision (gameplay), and an instant result.

Between that gameplay and the next, there is no gap.  And any gap of non-gameplay which does exist isn't ideal except in very small spurts (like a movie using establishing shots to indicate travel happening; they don't show 2 hours of real-time travel, they should 5-15 seconds of establishing shots to enter the next 2-10 minute scene.)

If you pointed out that a player leaving the AH to quest will have travel time in WOW, I would agree that in most cases that's not as fun as GW2's instant waypoint system where you avoid repeat travel.

It's a matter of poorly justified timesinks.  I find just as much fun and depth in games without these arbitrary non-gameplay timesinks than games with them.

EVE's timesinks would actually be better if they were genuinely AFKable.  I've enjoyed several online strategy games where you log in, make some decisions, then wait several hours for those decisions to happen.  But you're not forced to sit around with the app open for those things to happen, you can close it down and do something else.  Unfortunately EVE is in this bad zone where it feels like you should be able to AFK this empty non-gameplay, but it's actually a very bad idea to do so because 0.5% of the time it matters that you're not AFK.


You want instant travel? You have that in EVE, clone jumping. Oh, you want your ships and gear to go with you, tough or hitch a ride in somebody's Orca. AFKable? You have not used AutoPilot?

  Hazelle

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/20/11
Posts: 772

6/21/13 4:48:43 PM#108
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost.  The overwhelming feedback on travel in games is to cut to the chase.  Similar to how a movie would be terrible if it involved 30 minutes of uneventful travel, a game is going to be poor entertainment if a player's typical session involves a lot of non-gameplay.

It's not that I choose to do nothing.  It's that I want gameplay, but the game forces non-gameplay on me.

Down time is the single most important thing to have if you want to build a massively social game.

The strenght of the community is related to player opportunities to socialize which is best done while they wait on a macguffin.

If everything was instant you wouldn't seek out entertainment from peers infact you'd view your peers as a hinderance or annoyance.

It's better to view a game mechanic as a hindrance or annoyance than to have an antisocial view of your peers while playing a massively social game.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6501

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/21/13 4:52:51 PM#109

I hate Eve Online as well. Not because of the game features per se but rather because I should really like it but I dont. I love space sci-fi, I love sandbox and I like PvP Eve should be the perfect game for me, but it is anything but.

The space sci-fi feel is ruined by a craptastic point and click spreadsheet type UI and the combat is boring and anything but a space opera ala Star Wars or duels like in Star Trek.

The sandbox features are hidden deep inside boring PvE and downtimes like the insanely boring travelling, not to mention planets that up to recently was nothing but pretty backdrop.

Then you have the PvP that is so assymetric, due to the high death penalty, that you rarely have fun fights but rather most of the time 10 vs 1 or 100 vs 10 ganks.

So what am I stuck with playing then, oh yeah Star Trek Online because as crappy as that game is, it somehow feels more fun to (sometimes) play than Eve which is just plain B O R I N G.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6501

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/21/13 4:57:22 PM#110
Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost.  The overwhelming feedback on travel in games is to cut to the chase.  Similar to how a movie would be terrible if it involved 30 minutes of uneventful travel, a game is going to be poor entertainment if a player's typical session involves a lot of non-gameplay.

It's not that I choose to do nothing.  It's that I want gameplay, but the game forces non-gameplay on me.

Down time is the single most important thing to have if you want to build a massively social game.

The strenght of the community is related to player opportunities to socialize which is best done while they wait on a macguffin.

If everything was instant you wouldn't seek out entertainment from peers infact you'd view your peers as a hinderance or annoyance.

It's better to view a game mechanic as a hindrance or annoyance than to have an antisocial view of your peers while playing a massively social game.

Nonsense, absolutely nonsense. You build social games by having content which is best consumed with other people, not by forcing people to sit on their ass and watch some bar go down/up.

Downtime is the lazy way of making people to socialize, rather to actually have interesting content which requires a team to complete or interesting content which requires teams to compete (PvP).

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 5:56:59 PM#111
Originally posted by Loktofeit

...other than the post where you said exactly that.

If I mean EVE players, I'll say EVE players.  But the larger set of all players I call "players".

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

6/21/13 6:01:35 PM#112
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Loktofeit

...other than the post where you said exactly that.

If I mean EVE players, I'll say EVE players.  But the larger set of all players I call "players".

And on that note, Mr Designer, I wish you a great weekend. A perfect backpedal to end a Friday. Cheers!

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 6:07:16 PM#113
Originally posted by Bladestrom
No point you don't listen.

I listened, but you described a system which didn't create arbitrary, lengthy durations of non-gameplay so it didn't seem to make a point relevant to EVE travel.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 6:25:21 PM#114
Originally posted by Kravis

You want instant travel? You have that in EVE, clone jumping. Oh, you want your ships and gear to go with you, tough or hitch a ride in somebody's Orca. AFKable? You have not used AutoPilot?

Travel is a reality of EVE.  It's necessary for what EVE is.  Any isolated examples (I'm not too familiar with clone jumping) don't solve the fundamental problem that 99% of the time you're going to have to leg it the slow way, and it will be boring unless you find something else to do.

Autopilot also clearly isn't a solution, because as I pointed out: EVE travel feels AFKable, but it's not safe to actually AFK.

To be clear, I'm not trying to "solve" this problem for EVE.

I'm stating three simple things:

  • Travel in EVE is largely unavoidable.  While minor workarounds may occasionally exist, travel is an unavoidable reality of EVE.
  • Travel lacks decisions, so it lacks gameplay.  So it's required non-gameplay.  Again, there are some rare situations here where travel is eventful, but the majority of the time it's virtually AFKable (except don't, because the game is designed for that to be a Really Bad Move.)
  • And then my subjective opinion that other games provide just as much fun as EVE without such a large non-gameplay "tax" to pay.  (That's being a bit generous, as in the very best cases EVE's gameplay was significantly less fun than I've had in other games.)
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 6:27:51 PM#115
Originally posted by Loktofeit

And on that note, Mr Designer, I wish you a great weekend. A perfect backpedal to end a Friday. Cheers!

Cheers!

(But uh, it wasn't a backpedal.  Anyone who pays attention to my posts knows they're rather meticulously worded to avoid saying false things.  The closest I get is your example, where someone with a certain mindset could jump to the wrong conclusion because it wasn't stated with absolute clarity.   I write a lot of words as it is, so it would be incredibly tiresome to have to clarify the meaning of everything I post about, in every single new post.  In the entirety of my posts "players" means players.)

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2683

6/21/13 6:28:39 PM#116
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Dihoru
Axehilt before you make a fool of yourself any further could you enlighten us on what games you have worked in the past? I am really curios if it includes The War Z or any of the Thor games.

Perfect Dark, Mechwarrior 4 (+expansion), AOE2: Conquerors, and Rise of Nations (+expansion) are some of the earlier games I worked on.

Dear lord... a shooter, a decent third person shooter (modders made it better), a arguably decent expansion to a great game and a game which bored me to tears... so it would be accurate in stating that you're pulling stuff out your ass to prove your points because to claim you have any experience to draw on is like me saying I have an engineering degree.

 

It's rather amusing in the end that you want to skip downtime (whatever that is because right now I am having trouble even figuring out what you mean anymore) and at the same time there's a Arcane Saga ad in the top corner flashing "SKIP THE GRIND! PLAY FOR FREE!"... perhaps you just need to gain some experience making MMOs to actually start seeing that you don't break what works in your MMO because you feel you're "right" in doing so without proof. And no being a game designer does not make you an expert to the degree you're insinuating in this thread... christ I at least explain with cold hard facts whenever I tell someone that E=m*c^2 isn't a correct formula ( it's missing a bit ), you base your arguments on "what I think" or "the majority backs me up on this!" but don't even provide evidence to support either of those two statement at all, all you do is say "well yeah, I know better because I work in the field" which is about as valid a statement as me telling you "yeah, I can build you a house because I know how to calculate every possible force applied to it in all seasons and calculate the entropy of the construction materials such that it outlasts humanity". You work in the field but you lack experience and it shows, badly.

  Konfess

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 695

6/21/13 7:20:22 PM#117
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Loktofeit

...other than the post where you said exactly that.

If I mean EVE players, I'll say EVE players.  But the larger set of all players I call "players".

And on that note, Mr Designer, I wish you a great weekend. A perfect backpedal to end a Friday. Cheers!

I see the problem here, @Axehilt meant "but I (and most NoN-EvE players)".  This is how I read it, but what do I know?  I'm just another college graduate and designer.  I consider myself an explorer and crafter, and I found space mining in SWG fun.  So I thought I would try EvE.  Like the OP I battled the UI, and my community experience was the worst of any game I have played on the market. 

BTW did anyone answer the OP, more than saying your SOL like every one on the first page did?

 

Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4527

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/21/13 7:27:28 PM#118
Brave Newbies Inc. deplyed to Fountain. your points are invalid.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3256

Poacher killer.

6/21/13 7:38:40 PM#119
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Loktofeit

And on that note, Mr Designer, I wish you a great weekend. A perfect backpedal to end a Friday. Cheers!

Cheers!

(But uh, it wasn't a backpedal.  Anyone who pays attention to my posts knows they're rather meticulously worded to avoid saying false things.  The closest I get is your example, where someone with a certain mindset could jump to the wrong conclusion because it wasn't stated with absolute clarity.   I write a lot of words as it is, so it would be incredibly tiresome to have to clarify the meaning of everything I post about, in every single new post.  In the entirety of my posts "players" means players.)

Come on, man. Loktofeit nailed you. Not even you can twist your way out of this one ;)

I maintain my position that you can't stand the game (which is fair), you get bored quickly and stop playing, and you have never actually experienced "the meat and potatoes" of EVE. This is pretty transparent to me, and clearly I'm not alone.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4527

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/21/13 7:49:55 PM#120

it's natural for players used to themeparks to feel the entry barrier. this is a sanbox isue not an eve issue.

 

roleplay time.

let's say you find a new mmo with a free trial and decide to try it. let's say that upon entering you find no tutorial, no quests, no road to follow and nothing in your inventory. what do you do ?

 

everyone will begin by wondering around...maybe killing any monster in sight or following another passing-by player to see what he's doing...maybe ask him what he's doing...

 

this 'wondering around' will end when you find either a nice group or a nice activity you enjoy.

 

problem is in themeparks players like to watch videos and dl addons for fights well before trying them, so these 'wonering around' early steps are not ... familiar. instead of searching they'll be anxious to find something and if they don't quickly they might disregard the game altogether.

 

it's more true in eve than in more modern fantasy games because eve is much older. it's over a decade old. it's been updated many times but it's...as old as the pyramids by today's mmo standards.

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