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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » I hate EVE online

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231 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 1:54:59 AM#61
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Tagging this to post as a linked reply in the "Where's the roleplay?" "Where's the community?" threads. I think you guys just like the idea of interaction, because whenever anyone suggests anything outside of murdering stuff for xp and loot drops it's dismissed as irrelevant or unwanted.

Nobody's saying anything of the sort.  Interaction can be a hundred different things.  Combat is one form.  I play plenty of games, a number of which involve either no combat, or where combat isn't a focus.

But when a game enforces doing nothing, that's different.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3266

6/21/13 2:29:04 AM#62
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 3:30:37 AM#63
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost.  The overwhelming feedback on travel in games is to cut to the chase.  Similar to how a movie would be terrible if it involved 30 minutes of uneventful travel, a game is going to be poor entertainment if a player's typical session involves a lot of non-gameplay.

It's not that I choose to do nothing.  It's that I want gameplay, but the game forces non-gameplay on me.

  User Deleted
6/21/13 3:36:39 AM#64

With regards to the OP: The difference between failure and success is determination.

EVE Online isn't instantly gratifying, much like a good novel, but much more rewarding when you stick to it.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

6/21/13 3:41:33 AM#65
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Icewhite

You know, we used to stand around roleplaying for hours?

I wonder how many players could conceive of spending a year playing a game, without stabbing a single crittur--and enjoying the hell out of it.  Weeks of preparation and practice for an event where we just made a ten-minute performance, otherwise sat around watching the creativity of other bards--for several nights a year, every year?

:shrug: There's no end to the variety of ways people can enjoy (or not) their gaming. It's a really good thing we have so many games to choose between.

That's not really a game example though.  It's a brief performance with a lot of non-interactive entertainment (watching others) and socialization.

Tagging this to post as a linked reply in the "Where's the roleplay?" "Where's the community?" threads. I think you guys just like the idea of interaction, because whenever anyone suggests anything outside of murdering stuff for xp and loot drops it's dismissed as irrelevant or unwanted.

Dismissed by whom? There's your key difference.

Please don't put me in a "you guys" with Axehilt. You know better.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
6/21/13 3:56:27 AM#66
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

But the overwhelming feedback on travel systems in games is exactly the opposite: to cut to the actual content.  Much like how we don't watch movies that involve 2+ hours of actual travel time, in a game long travel is just not entertaining.

Axehilt kindly stop making a fool of yourself, it is obvious to anyone who spend more than a few hours playing EVE (let alone the years I've spent) that you know nothing about the game. You have latched onto the notion of forced downtime like a hungry baby latches onto a teet but no one is forcing you to have any downtime whatsoever because in EVE you can literally undock and do whatever you like the moment you undock (with the new scan mechanics you know how much stuff there is to blow up in terms of combat sites within your system, you can visit local belts if you're in a 0.7 or below system and splat rats, you can scan down anomalies for the chance of getting phat loots, and this can be done within 2-3 weeks of starting to play at the same level as a guy who's spent years in the game, how you may ask? low barrier of admission or just do whatever, you can even try your hand at Jita to tertiary hub trading and before you utter the word "travel" I shall utter the term "suicide ganker").

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 4:06:28 AM#67
Originally posted by Dihoru

Axehilt kindly stop making a fool of yourself, it is obvious to anyone who spend more than a few hours playing EVE (let alone the years I've spent) that you know nothing about the game. You have latched onto the notion of forced downtime like a hungry baby latches onto a teet but no one is forcing you to have any downtime whatsoever because in EVE you can literally undock and do whatever you like the moment you undock (with the new scan mechanics you know how much stuff there is to blow up in terms of combat sites within your system, you can visit local belts if you're in a 0.7 or below system and splat rats, you can scan down anomalies for the chance of getting phat loots, and this can be done within 2-3 weeks of starting to play at the same level as a guy who's spent years in the game, how you may ask? low barrier of admission or just do whatever, you can even try your hand at Jita to tertiary hub trading and before you utter the word "travel" I shall utter the term "suicide ganker").

Are you saying that EVE travel time, as a percentage of overall playtime, is not more than typical games?

It seems obvious that's not the case.

Are you saying the moment I undock I can decide to be at a specific 0.0 sec coordinate and be there instantly?

That's obviously not the case either.

It seems like you're trying to pretend these realities of EVE don't exist.  Look, if you want to profess that you feel all that downtime is worth it, then do that.  But don't try to claim the game doesn't force downtime upon players, because it does.

In a typical game travel (or its equivalent) might eat up 5-15% of a session's total length, whereas in EVE that number is easily in excess of 25% (and I definitely did have sessions where it was over 50%, but that was partially because the utter monotony of travel caused the session to end prematurely when I switched to another game where I could be having fun with those gaming hours.)

  Biskop

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 731

6/21/13 4:18:28 AM#68
Originally posted by Axehilt

poor entertainment 

non-gameplay.

do nothing 

non-gameplay

empty game experience

time-wasting

downtime

time-wasting

non-gameplay

downtime

devoid of fun

nothing

mind-numbing

boredom

do nothing

excessive travel times

less of a focus on gameplay

excessive downtimes

doing nothing

uneventful travel

non-gameplay

You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game 

deep

and

fun

was some kind of universal law.

Newsflash: it's not! Different people have different ideas of what is fun, rewarding and interesting. The fact that you got bored of EVE does not mean the game lacks depth or complex, interesting gameplay, just that the game isn't for you - which also means you haven't really experienced all its aspects and thus are not qualified to judge it from an objective viewpoint.

I never made it far into WoW, but I wouldn't dream of coming to the WoW forums claiming that high-end raiding is shallow and requires no skill, just because I personally got bored of the fedex runs and "kill 10 X" questing at level 20.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

6/21/13 4:28:01 AM#69
Originally posted by Biskop

You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game was some kind of universal law.

An attitude we see an awful lot whenever anyone discusses their particular favorites, or their dislikes.

You'll see the bittervets defining the entire genre through the lens of their first-love games, all the time.

Axe just likes to joust with those guys, and so his argument tends to assume a regular pattern in response to their regular patterns.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Biskop

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 731

6/21/13 4:33:14 AM#70
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Biskop

You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game was some kind of universal law.

An attitude we see an awful lot whenever anyone discusses their particular favorites, or their dislikes.

You'll see the bittervets defining the entire genre through the lens of their first-love games, all the time.

Axe just likes to joust with those guys, and so his argument tends to assume a regular pattern in response to their regular patterns.

Yes, it's a very common attitude these days.

But that doesn't mean it's enjoyable, not even in jest - at least not on the scale this particular poster (and some others) are doing. If he's just trolling people he's rather dedicated though, I'll give him that.

  uplink4242

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 229

6/21/13 4:45:11 AM#71
Here is a tip: turn off autopilot
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

6/21/13 4:57:58 AM#72
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost. 

Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player. ;)

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  User Deleted
6/21/13 10:52:46 AM#73
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Dihoru

Axehilt kindly stop making a fool of yourself, it is obvious to anyone who spend more than a few hours playing EVE (let alone the years I've spent) that you know nothing about the game. You have latched onto the notion of forced downtime like a hungry baby latches onto a teet but no one is forcing you to have any downtime whatsoever because in EVE you can literally undock and do whatever you like the moment you undock (with the new scan mechanics you know how much stuff there is to blow up in terms of combat sites within your system, you can visit local belts if you're in a 0.7 or below system and splat rats, you can scan down anomalies for the chance of getting phat loots, and this can be done within 2-3 weeks of starting to play at the same level as a guy who's spent years in the game, how you may ask? low barrier of admission or just do whatever, you can even try your hand at Jita to tertiary hub trading and before you utter the word "travel" I shall utter the term "suicide ganker").

Are you saying that EVE travel time, as a percentage of overall playtime, is not more than typical games?

It seems obvious that's not the case.

Are you saying the moment I undock I can decide to be at a specific 0.0 sec coordinate and be there instantly?

That's obviously not the case either.

It seems like you're trying to pretend these realities of EVE don't exist.  Look, if you want to profess that you feel all that downtime is worth it, then do that.  But don't try to claim the game doesn't force downtime upon players, because it does.

In a typical game travel (or its equivalent) might eat up 5-15% of a session's total length, whereas in EVE that number is easily in excess of 25% (and I definitely did have sessions where it was over 50%, but that was partially because the utter monotony of travel caused the session to end prematurely when I switched to another game where I could be having fun with those gaming hours.)

It seems obvious you are at best equating your opinion with fact and at worse just a poor excuse of a troll. In EVE your choice dictates your degree of enjoyment and the more unrealistic your choices are vs your own capabilities the more you will suffer for it. It does not force downtime on you at all, it forces you to make choices and to, shockingly for your adrenaline fuelled mind that can't seem to go one minute without planting a sword into something, crafting a sword of a thousand truths to then plant it into something or sniffing achievement crank off the nearest doey elven breasts you can find, live with them. It is clear you cannot even comprehend the game let alone fathom what it offers and I truly pity the industry if you are a game developer of any sort.

 

Also fun fact for you: Today while jumping from system to system doing some exploration I made over 200 mil isk in under 2 hours while my heart was pounding trying to get both the dps down and the neuts off me. It was my choice to explore and learn how to best maximize time spent doing said exploration, sure there was maybe 5-10 minutes of travel time in those 120 minutes but if you point at that and say "seeee!! it's there!!! even for you!!!" I will ask you to not forget to take your medication.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3266

6/21/13 12:00:42 PM#74
Lol my point that devs listen to why people like things and if they don't understand why - they learn. Your approach is to tell those people are wrong and justify your own desires by claiming most in eve agree - even though this is obviously untrue. It's a bad behaviour for a designer it has to be said, I assume you are good at your job so your judgement must be clouded by your personal gaming desires here.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Krematory

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/15/08
Posts: 518

MMOHOLIC

6/21/13 12:03:46 PM#75
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost. 

Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player. ;)

 

+1. Another troll bites the dust

"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3266

6/21/13 12:11:15 PM#76
Lol yup since the eve player base does not in fact want such a thing, I'm guessing a good designer would aknowledge 'ah missing something here, many are enjoying travel in eve, I better analyse this in greater detail' or is it still a case of fingers in ears 'I'm right everyone else is wrong'.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2874

6/21/13 12:14:00 PM#77
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.

As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost. 

Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player. ;)

 

Yup, things usually go well until the phrase "...and most other players..." slips out 

 

It's a dead giveaway, because it's shorhand for: "I'm right and you're wrong, because most people agree with ME, not with you".

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3266

6/21/13 12:16:17 PM#78
On a lighter note axe, have a look at a pilgrim and low sec exploration as a great goal for someone like myself that is proudly pve/pure care bear. Bet you won't find exploring so boring then :)

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 12:54:29 PM#79
Originally posted by Biskop

You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game 

was some kind of universal law.

Newsflash: it's not! Different people have different ideas of what is fun, rewarding and interesting. The fact that you got bored of EVE does not mean the game lacks depth or complex, interesting gameplay, just that the game isn't for you - which also means you haven't really experienced all its aspects and thus are not qualified to judge it from an objective viewpoint.

I never made it far into WoW, but I wouldn't dream of coming to the WoW forums claiming that high-end raiding is shallow and requires no skill, just because I personally got bored of the fedex runs and "kill 10 X" questing at level 20.

Let's get things straight.

The non-gameplay I'm describing is objective.  You can objectively say that EVE involves more travel time as a percentage of overall gameplay.  You can objectively say that 95-99% of the time, the act of traveling involves no decisions (which is non-gameplay.)

Subjectivity only appears when I describe the overall game is not being fun because the type of gameplay lengthy travel buys EVE isn't worth the cost.  But the act of traveling lacking meaningful decisions is objective truth.

I've never said EVE lacks depth, so please let's avoid putting lies in others' mouths.  I've simply pointed out that the way it achieves depth is sloppy (spamming complexity at the game design,) and that other games achieve similar (or possibly more) depth without the tedious sections of non-gameplay EVE forces on players.

I didn't "come to the EVE forums".  The thread was moved.  The thread was on-topic where it was created (general gaming.) I disagree with the mods' decision to move any on-topic thread, but that doesn't really matter.  I view my posts and their responses through my profile, so the thread was probably here quite a while before I even noticed it wasn't in general gaming anymore.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/21/13 1:01:45 PM#80
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player. ;) 

More people like Rock than Black Metal, but I'm not going to go into a Black Metal forum and ask, "Hey guys, what do you think of music without the screaming?" and expect to have an accurate discussion of how people generally feel about screaming in their music.

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