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Age of Wushu

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General Discussion  » AoW: A Great Example of Why Sandbox Titles Don't Work in the West

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236 posts found
  Alamareth

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/06
Posts: 591

6/07/13 11:21:41 AM#41
Originally posted by oGMo

 


Originally posted by Alamareth
Oh, and the mouse inversion people don't know how to use computers.  You can freaking do that with a 3rd party program, so WHY is it a complaint about the game.  If it matters to you that much, you'll figure it out - I have faith in the MMO gamer's ability to figure these things out themselves.


 

Not really .. you can invert the mouse, but then when you go to use the actual cursor, it's still inverted. Even more unusable. Plus, why should I have to hunt down a third-party app just to do something that the devs should have taken 5 minutes to implement in the first place (check box, setting flag, and if/negation)? If they can't do something as simple as that (which every other game I've played in quite awhile has), what else can't they take the time for?

Anyhow, I did solve it: I moved on to other, more interesting games.

Pure and straight facepalm.  You do it because it matters to you. 

If you seriously can't figure out how to do it properly, then you would have NEVER figured out this game.

The reason why the developers probably never did it is because they frankly don't care about your super small extremely loud minority.  I don't either.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

6/07/13 11:26:11 AM#42
Originally posted by Alamareth

Been around MMO's since Ultima (MUDs before that, D&D before that), so yeah - I think veteran is more than fitting for me.  I've CB tested nearly every F2P game that ever reached any sort of western market (well over 100).  Worked as a VGM and a private server tester (Acclaim and Rappelz, respectively).  What else are you going to ask for?

I'm about as veteran as you get without being a true insider.

Your post is truly ironic, considering you indict me for not backing up my claim of "being an MMO veteran" (see above for that correction).  Yet you offer not one example as to why this game is crap.

Typical MMORPG troll.

My point being that, great you might have played a bunch of crap, I have as well.  I've developed as well, and released and etc..again we're on the internet so making claims means nothing and I'm sure we're both unwilling to offer credentials so it's moot.  Moving on...

 

The game itself is an example.

 

Poor UI, poor gameplay, horrid tutorial and beginning, the only good animations are in combat the game looks horrible outside of screen shots (seems dead and cardboard), limited action sets that pretend they offer depth when really it's just a clone of GW-style action sets, a true rental-style money-grab system, I could go on but I feel that's enough to validate my point.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/07/13 11:26:49 AM#43

So many responses that continue to prove my point.   It's not a bad thing that people want instant action and to be the hero on day one.   I'm not trying to debate that point. 

 

However, these are fundamental reasons why sandboxes won't work in the west anymore.    If players want a truly open environment and game systems that will promote long-term, player driven content, there's going to be a learning curve which may not translate into super exciting game play right off the bat.  

 

 

 

 

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1145

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

6/07/13 11:27:15 AM#44

 

As the Original Poster of this thread, and someone who played SWG in the past, could you please indicate everything that is "Sandbox" about this game?

 

This is just a simply request, and you don't have to do it.  But I've been playing since about the third day after official launch, and it no where meets my personal standard of what makes a proper Sandbox game.

 

I use Ultima Online as an example when looking at self proclaimed Sandbox games.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/07/13 11:27:22 AM#45

As a sandbox advocate, I have to say that AoW failed to grab me because of the bad combat. Maybe I didn't get far enough into the game, but I seem to remember that when I entered combat I had to tab my target and my movement actually became restricted! I was playing with a couple of friends and we chucked the game aside at that point.

The UI wasn't stellar either, and I felt the graphics were ok, but nothing spectacular. I also didn't see the sandbox element to it that much, but that's probably because I didn't play the game for all that long.

Sandbox alone cannot carry a game, I think this is why so many have asked for a AAA sandbox.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Toxia

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 1289

6/07/13 11:27:56 AM#46

The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16994

6/07/13 11:28:21 AM#47
Originally posted by Flex1

 

Like he says, if the tutorial can't even draw you in to the game why should I expect the normal game to draw me in? See I used the word tutorial, what the guy was talking about before you brought this instant gratification crap that nobody was talking about.

 

 

Thank you.

And that's  part of another point "the blaming of the player".

It seems so easy to just say "you don't like this game because you want instant gratification" as opposed to "you don't like this game because it doesn't draw you in".

 

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5178

6/07/13 11:28:27 AM#48
Originally posted by Alamareth

Been around MMO's since Ultima (MUDs before that, D&D before that), so yeah - I think veteran is more than fitting for me.  I've CB tested nearly every F2P game that ever reached any sort of western market (well over 100).  Worked as a VGM and a private server tester (Acclaim and Rappelz, respectively).  What else are you going to ask for?

I'm about as veteran as you get without being a true insider.

The most experienced "MMO veteran" on the planet is still some random person posting on an internet forum. It's impossible to tell people what they will or won't like about a game. Your claim of authority is pointless. If AoW is a sandbox, a completely useless term, it's one that doesn't have the features I want. So the op's over broad characterization of western players, whatever that's supposed to mean, is invalid. People like different things and can't be encouraged to enjoy things they don't by insulting their preferences. It's a silly proposition on it's face.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

6/07/13 11:28:40 AM#49
Originally posted by Alamareth
Originally posted by oGMo

 


Originally posted by Alamareth
Oh, and the mouse inversion people don't know how to use computers.  You can freaking do that with a 3rd party program, so WHY is it a complaint about the game.  If it matters to you that much, you'll figure it out - I have faith in the MMO gamer's ability to figure these things out themselves.


 

Not really .. you can invert the mouse, but then when you go to use the actual cursor, it's still inverted. Even more unusable. Plus, why should I have to hunt down a third-party app just to do something that the devs should have taken 5 minutes to implement in the first place (check box, setting flag, and if/negation)? If they can't do something as simple as that (which every other game I've played in quite awhile has), what else can't they take the time for?

Anyhow, I did solve it: I moved on to other, more interesting games.

Pure and straight facepalm.  You do it because it matters to you. 

If you seriously can't figure out how to do it properly, then you would have NEVER figured out this game.

The reason why the developers probably never did it is because they frankly don't care about your super small extremely loud minority.  I don't either.

If a car comes out without windshield wipers just because the makers decided (or forgot) to put them on it is still a flaw.  Saying that you can fix it yourself by installing your own doesn't mean it's not a flaw.  Not including something that's a simple and standard feature on anything after 2000 is just plain lazy and is a glaring example of the quality of this game.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Alamareth

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/06
Posts: 591

6/07/13 11:29:42 AM#50
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Alamareth

Been around MMO's since Ultima (MUDs before that, D&D before that), so yeah - I think veteran is more than fitting for me.  I've CB tested nearly every F2P game that ever reached any sort of western market (well over 100).  Worked as a VGM and a private server tester (Acclaim and Rappelz, respectively).  What else are you going to ask for?

I'm about as veteran as you get without being a true insider.

Your post is truly ironic, considering you indict me for not backing up my claim of "being an MMO veteran" (see above for that correction).  Yet you offer not one example as to why this game is crap.

Typical MMORPG troll.

My point being that, great you might have played a bunch of crap, I have as well.  I've developed as well, and released and etc..again we're on the internet so making claims means nothing and I'm sure we're both unwilling to offer credentials so it's moot.  Moving on...

 

The game itself is an example.

 

Poor UI, poor gameplay, horrid tutorial and beginning, the only good animations are in combat the game looks horrible outside of screen shots (seems dead and cardboard), limited action sets that pretend they offer depth when really it's just a clone of GW-style action sets, a true rental-style money-grab system, I could go on but I feel that's enough to validate my point.

Laundry list of your "usual" complaints, most of which have NOTHING to do with AoW.  If you played this game at all, you could not have possibly passed the first internal.

Limited action sets?  Da fuq?  I have 7 skill sets, will have 9 soon - I use ALL of them.

GW combat and AoW combat aren't even remotely comparable.

Graphics are nice, not the best - but the environments are extremely well made.  It's one of the most consistently praised things about the game, yet you claim its "dead and cardboard".  Sorry sir, most of the thinking world disagrees with you.

Poor UI is fair.  I don't love it, but it's not so bad that it actively limits my gameplay.  The only issue is that I only have quick access to 5 skill sets.  Not enough for me.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2723

6/07/13 11:30:26 AM#51
This game is simply not a very good game. Myself and three other friends all played this game for several weeks be before giving up. All of us played sandbox titles previously, such as UO, SWG and EvE. AoW in no way compares to any of those. It is a bunch of linear grinds designed to make people get frustrated and use the cash shop, on top of the things other people already mentioned. It is not a fun game. It is not really a complex game. It is a lot of farming and mob grinding dressing up a typical Asian grinder, doing the same dailies over and over and over. Plus there are tons of bots, and gold spammers, which are never dealt with. This is more a "part-time job" for S.Korean and Taiwanese teenagers to sell some virtual items/currency and make some pocket money (which is legal in those places, and there are few part time jobs as compared to many Western countries). And all of THAT is why this game is not doing well in the West: the West is not its target audience.
  Alamareth

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/06
Posts: 591

6/07/13 11:30:26 AM#52
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Alamareth
Originally posted by oGMo

 


Originally posted by Alamareth
Oh, and the mouse inversion people don't know how to use computers.  You can freaking do that with a 3rd party program, so WHY is it a complaint about the game.  If it matters to you that much, you'll figure it out - I have faith in the MMO gamer's ability to figure these things out themselves.


 

Not really .. you can invert the mouse, but then when you go to use the actual cursor, it's still inverted. Even more unusable. Plus, why should I have to hunt down a third-party app just to do something that the devs should have taken 5 minutes to implement in the first place (check box, setting flag, and if/negation)? If they can't do something as simple as that (which every other game I've played in quite awhile has), what else can't they take the time for?

Anyhow, I did solve it: I moved on to other, more interesting games.

Pure and straight facepalm.  You do it because it matters to you. 

If you seriously can't figure out how to do it properly, then you would have NEVER figured out this game.

The reason why the developers probably never did it is because they frankly don't care about your super small extremely loud minority.  I don't either.

If a car comes out without windshield wipers just because the makers decided (or forgot) to put them on it is still a flaw.  Saying that you can fix it yourself by installing your own doesn't mean it's not a flaw.  Not including something that's a simple and standard feature on anything after 2000 is just plain lazy and is a glaring example of the quality of this game.

I can't fix a car windshield in 2 minutes.  Time versus difficulty of implementation.  To fix mouse inversion is:

A) Easy

B) Fast

Your comparison is meaningless.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

6/07/13 11:30:48 AM#53
Originally posted by fat_taddler

So many responses that continue to prove my point.   It's not a bad thing that people want instant action and to be the hero on day one.   I'm not trying to debate that point. 

 

However, these are fundamental reasons why sandboxes won't work in the west anymore.    If players want a truly open environment and game systems that will promote long-term, player driven content, there's going to be a learning curve which may not translate into super exciting game play right off the bat.  

 

 

 

 

Name ONE SINGLE player-driven piece of content in this game.......I'll gladly wait to hear this.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  park97

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/09
Posts: 105

6/07/13 11:31:33 AM#54
Originally posted by ignore_me

As a sandbox advocate, I have to say that AoW failed to grab me because of the bad combat. Maybe I didn't get far enough into the game, but I seem to remember that when I entered combat I had to tab my target and my movement actually became restricted! I was playing with a couple of friends and we chucked the game aside at that point.

The UI wasn't stellar either, and I felt the graphics were ok, but nothing spectacular. I also didn't see the sandbox element to it that much, but that's probably because I didn't play the game for all that long.

Sandbox alone cannot carry a game, I think this is why so many have asked for a AAA sandbox.

Bad combat? AOW probably has the best combat design among all MMOs. How many hours you played? did you get the Goose?  AOW is for elite, if you don't get it you will never get it, go back to some easy games.

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1292

\m/,

6/07/13 11:31:47 AM#55
Originally posted by nerovipus32
The game might be good but the setting doesn't really interest me.

Agree. Chop-sockiee just ain't my thang

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  ChrispyChris

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 27

6/07/13 11:31:53 AM#56
Originally posted by Alamareth

Perhaps rely on your fellow veteran MMO player that has experienced all of the high level content in the game to guide your decision that the world draws you in FAR more once you complete the tutorial?

The entire point of a tutorial is to teach you to play the game - to give you the tools to make it to that high level content. If a game makes that a pain it'll affect the way you see the game and automatically lower the value of it in the player's mind. The tutorial is the hook. If the worm on it isn't juicy enough, fish won't bite. 

And it can certainly be done better. EVE Online has spreadsheets and spreadsheets of information to learn, but you don't get bombarded with it in the first half-hour of play.

  Nephaerius

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1451

6/07/13 11:32:34 AM#57
Originally posted by fat_taddler
Originally posted by fldash

This game would be successful if the translations were good and the interface was Western.

End of story. Has nothing to do with sandboxes not working in the West.

Keep telling yourself that.   There's nothing game-breaking about the translations or the UI.   The UI is very simple and even resembles most themeparks. 

 Phrase however you want the game is not exactly welcoming to a new player.  All the systems are poorly explained as they are dumped on you all at once.  There may be a great game waiting to find underneath all the stuff, but I'm not willing to put in the time and effort to figure it all out.  It's one thing to have to put in time and effort to grasp the higher level aspects of a game.  It's a whole other thing to have piss poor explanations for the basics of said game.  I've tried 3x and can't make it past doing some quests once I get to my school. 

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  Alamareth

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/06
Posts: 591

6/07/13 11:33:52 AM#58
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by fat_taddler

So many responses that continue to prove my point.   It's not a bad thing that people want instant action and to be the hero on day one.   I'm not trying to debate that point. 

 

However, these are fundamental reasons why sandboxes won't work in the west anymore.    If players want a truly open environment and game systems that will promote long-term, player driven content, there's going to be a learning curve which may not translate into super exciting game play right off the bat.  

 

 

 

 

Name ONE SINGLE player-driven piece of content in this game.......I'll gladly wait to hear this.

School wars.

Guild wars.

School alliance leadership.

Escort raids.

I could go on....how are you missing this?

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/07/13 11:35:38 AM#59
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Alamareth
Originally posted by oGMo

 


Originally posted by Alamareth
Oh, and the mouse inversion people don't know how to use computers.  You can freaking do that with a 3rd party program, so WHY is it a complaint about the game.  If it matters to you that much, you'll figure it out - I have faith in the MMO gamer's ability to figure these things out themselves.


 

Not really .. you can invert the mouse, but then when you go to use the actual cursor, it's still inverted. Even more unusable. Plus, why should I have to hunt down a third-party app just to do something that the devs should have taken 5 minutes to implement in the first place (check box, setting flag, and if/negation)? If they can't do something as simple as that (which every other game I've played in quite awhile has), what else can't they take the time for?

Anyhow, I did solve it: I moved on to other, more interesting games.

Pure and straight facepalm.  You do it because it matters to you. 

If you seriously can't figure out how to do it properly, then you would have NEVER figured out this game.

The reason why the developers probably never did it is because they frankly don't care about your super small extremely loud minority.  I don't either.

If a car comes out without windshield wipers just because the makers decided (or forgot) to put them on it is still a flaw.  Saying that you can fix it yourself by installing your own doesn't mean it's not a flaw.  Not including something that's a simple and standard feature on anything after 2000 is just plain lazy and is a glaring example of the quality of this game.

As someone pointed out earlier, this is a tactic used in Blaming the Player (the form of 'blaming the victim' native to these forums) wherein a proponent attacks your desire for features by claiming that you are a bad person for wanting that feature. If you are going to advocate a game, attacking the critics is a fail strategy. You can't do: Buy this or youre wrong, unless you have AK-47s and a politburo.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

6/07/13 11:35:38 AM#60
Originally posted by Alamareth
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Alamareth
more stuff
stuff

Laundry list of your "usual" complaints, most of which have NOTHING to do with AoW.  If you played this game at all, you could not have possibly passed the first internal.

Limited action sets?  Da fuq?  I have 7 skill sets, will have 9 soon - I use ALL of them.

GW combat and AoW combat aren't even remotely comparable.

Graphics are nice, not the best - but the environments are extremely well made.  It's one of the most consistently praised things about the game, yet you claim its "dead and cardboard".  Sorry sir, most of the thinking world disagrees with you.

Poor UI is fair.  I don't love it, but it's not so bad that it actively limits my gameplay.  The only issue is that I only have quick access to 5 skill sets.  Not enough for me.

Having X skills on cooldown when you use Y skills because they are in the "same category" is just a clever way of making you feel like you have more to choose from when it's just the same mechanic, albeit hidden in a way to fool most people.

 

- When any skill is cast, all other skills in other Skill Set will enter a Shared CD of 7 sec.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

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