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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » That MMO die so fast is the result of F2P.

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173 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

6/03/13 6:46:28 AM#121
Think op has his cause and effect mixed up.

Badly performing mmos that die fast are the cause of f2p
  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3545

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/03/13 6:51:13 AM#122
Originally posted by PieRad
Originally posted by dgarbini
How many threads are you going to start on this topic?  Isn't there several floating around already?

There can't be enough of these threads, people need to understand.

Need? Perhaps. Want? Obviously not.  Most people don't want anything beyond what is being offered.  Other wise, they wouldn't keep playing the same damn game, with slightly different rules and a different color set.  Given what it costs to produce these games, the companies involved wouldn't keep doing it, if it wasn't profitable. 

We are caught in a nasty feed back loop. Given what a good quality game costs to produce, the investors/business suits, take as few risks as possible.  That means sticking to a formula that worked (at a given time), even if the times have changed, and it works less well now.  That continues until its no longer profitable.  Then the majority jump on the Next Big Thing (tm) and the cycle repeats.

  BatCakez

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/20/07
Posts: 127

6/03/13 6:53:57 AM#123
Originally posted by anemo

I'll have to say this argument is pretty boring.

You would say that. Have you ever experienced an older MMO, one of the originals? I'm not talking about WoW, and I'm not talking about a F2P back then (I mean either UO or Everquest). You have no idea how amazing they were, and you likely never will with todays MMO market. It's actually very sad, because it was the most satisfying experience that the greedy companies today will never be able to show you, or us veterans ever again.
You can't state to care or understand, because you haven't experienced it. You don't know what those of us who fight the F2P model are speaking of. How can you bother yourself with it, if it's so unfamiliar to you?

We use to have comraderie, everywhere. You think games are social now? You have no idea! Ten times more than that. Our communities were something to talk about, to be proud of, to enjoy the company of.

We use to have actual adventures. Ones that games did not set out in a linear fashion to us. Nobodies tale was ever quite like the other.

We use to have a home. I meant exactly what I say. In todays MMOs, you just don't get housing. I'm glad Wild Star is seeing this, but I cannot say the game has much long term chance after a few months have passed.

We use to have great service. Allow me to give an example. Back when I started UO, their GMs would be around to talk (on a character) to new players and even have conversations with them. They'd answer ANY question you had. The developers and the producer would be in game, doing events, on a character, with the players!

We use to have immersion with more options. We use to have a seamless world. We use to have a lot of things that we no longer have today.

I'm not saying they should be exactly like that again, but there is no hope for this train wreck if it keeps going full speed and learning nothing from a head on collision..with themselves, each and every time.

 

Back to the OP though..

 

I totally agree. I'm quite sad that MMOs are nothing like what they use to be. I remember when finding a F2P was hard, and still did not ensure you that you were spending your time or moneys worth.

  tordurbar

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/10
Posts: 390

6/03/13 6:56:07 AM#124

"Hey Bones,

Its not P2P.  Games are not free, and MMOs need consistently operational cost to keep playing.  Something F2P will never get you cannot make enough money consistently to pay your operating cost period.  F2P will bring down many publishers in the near future.  You can take that to the bank.  There are just too many MMOs and F2P will do nothing but bring alone the enviable which is games shutting down faster because too much money is spent creating a game for little or no return on investment."

/this Many gamers (especially on this site) forget or don't care that to create a game and maintain it costs money. That requires investors. Funding a game that was already produced and had good word of mouth is a possible investment but to start a game from scratch as f2p - why would investors want to take that risk.

Kickstarter is not the answer. For a AAA MMO you need a LOT of resources and work and money to pay for the salaries of all those people. Kickstarter is not going to make it.

Yes, there are too many MMOs on the market. Contrary to the usual critics there are many that are not the "usual wow clones". GW2, Tera, and TSW are just three who are different. Different did not seem to work. Yes, the games are hanging in there but are they making a ton of money - no.

There is a bigger factor that is going to bring down most (yes most) of the big games in the future - mobile games. Investors are dumping MMOs right and left. What do you think was behind the Titan layoff? Investors want mobile games not pc/console games - even from the biggest name in MMOs.

  page975

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/13
Posts: 317

6/03/13 7:04:44 AM#125
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Boneserino
It is the players, not the MMO's, that are the problem.

 

This guy gets it.

Both of you don't get it.

Developers set the stage in all aspects of an mmo. They make the discision on how the game will be played. Players can only work around what is given to them AS BEST THEY CAN TO MAKE A GAME TO THERE LIKING.

 

A few examples :

 

 

Everquest 2 - This game was released around the same time as World of Warcraft.  Both games were deep, both were a step up from UO and EQ1.  WoW took the community for several reasons.

- Bad coding, Both games had bugs and hard starts. But EQ2 was much harder on many computers even by todays standards.

- WoW was seemless and had a better map system. EQ2 was zoned, and expantions were hacked in like a bad jig saw puzzle.

- EQ2 had an AA system to alow you to stop or slow your exp. Sure some could say this was a good thing, but it gave an advantage to experancedi players.

 

 

Rift- Good game !.....Impossible to make a community.

- Quest hubs and chain quest. I can't play with you, your not on part 4 yet !....The entire game was like that until end game. Both my RL friend and I had to play exactly togeather to match quest.  If one played even one hour more than the other we were completely out of sync.........Who's fault is that !.......I had zero friends on my friends list, when I'm the most social player in an mmo.

 

 

GW2- Well, we all know with auto grouping you don't need to make friends or belong to a guild. It's called GUILDWARS 2, figure that one out :).....whos fault is that ?

 

 

I would give about 20 more examples of Developers screwing up mmos, but i'm off to work.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6341

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/03/13 7:33:24 AM#126

I have noticed the trends in game design for quite some time.I learned a lot about game design and the game engines a long time ago ,during the DOOM days.I really learned a lot more when Epic games released the Unreal Editor so everyone could see the C+ code and how an entire game was made.

So i have been able to see exactly where devs are cutting corners.I know exactly what they COULD be doing and far they have dumb down what they did do.What i see are a lot of naive people who buy anything a developer is selling them,like used car salesmen licking their chops at their next customer.I see dev gimmicks like selling you a car with no tires,then the buyers are like all excited when they get free tires a month or two later.Or no stereo ,then they get this free cool stereo and the people are like "this dev is the greatest, i love these guys".Umm no sorry they ripped you off in the first place,they are just slowly giving you back what should have been there on release,so in reality they are giving you NOTHING for free.

I wish more people would realize that these developers are selling you extremely poor effort.IMO it is too bad if you spent 100 million and your game still looks like a 20 mil game.If these devs can't properly plan out the production and design of their game long before starting it,they deserve to have the game fail 2 months after release.

Perhaps the problem is too many big shots with more money than brains,They know how to play the market and stocks deal with  banks and investments,they know how to  entice investors but they definitely don't know much about game design,aside from the business end of things.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9935

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/03/13 8:36:39 AM#127


Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Waterlily Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months. Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO. Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore. Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.   In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders. As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die. As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales. In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
You know nothing Jon Snow




For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9935

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/03/13 8:43:06 AM#128


Originally posted by tordurbar
"Hey Bones,

Its not P2P.  Games are not free, and MMOs need consistently operational cost to keep playing.  Something F2P will never get you cannot make enough money consistently to pay your operating cost period.  F2P will bring down many publishers in the near future.  You can take that to the bank.  There are just too many MMOs and F2P will do nothing but bring alone the enviable which is games shutting down faster because too much money is spent creating a game for little or no return on investment."

/this Many gamers (especially on this site) forget or don't care that to create a game and maintain it costs money. That requires investors. Funding a game that was already produced and had good word of mouth is a possible investment but to start a game from scratch as f2p - why would investors want to take that risk.

Kickstarter is not the answer. For a AAA MMO you need a LOT of resources and work and money to pay for the salaries of all those people. Kickstarter is not going to make it.

Yes, there are too many MMOs on the market. Contrary to the usual critics there are many that are not the "usual wow clones". GW2, Tera, and TSW are just three who are different. Different did not seem to work. Yes, the games are hanging in there but are they making a ton of money - no.

There is a bigger factor that is going to bring down most (yes most) of the big games in the future - mobile games. Investors are dumping MMOs right and left. What do you think was behind the Titan layoff? Investors want mobile games not pc/console games - even from the biggest name in MMOs.




Are you talking to me or are you referring to Dr. McCoy, aka "Bones" from Star Trek?

Anyway, all or some of what you say could be totally true. The MMO industry is a very big, complex beast. The surface stuff is obvious, such as games must make money, or they will cease to exist. The rest of it though is a big, knotty mess, and even determine what the issues are is tricky. Even saying that the MMO industry is in trouble is iffy. The industry is growing, making more money every year. It's hard to say the industry is failing when it keeps growing. In a perfect world, this would happen without any games failing, but that's just not possible.

Really though, I just don't think it makes any sense to blame F2P for things that it can't possibly be responsible for. If anything, F2P is making it possible for more development to take place and for games that would otherwise shutdown to continue and grow.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18346

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/03/13 8:46:50 AM#129
Originally posted by Waterlily

Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.

Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.

Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.

Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.

 

None of those issues are related to the business model, but rather are problems with current MMO game design, they are created to be mostly disposable, single player experiences, and like any single player game, have a very short playing life.

F2P doesn't kill MMO's, game design does.

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

6/03/13 8:53:14 AM#130
Originally posted by Waterlily

Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.

Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.

Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.

Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.

 

In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.

As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.

As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.

In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.

glad u took the red pill, welcome to reality.

  Tryken

Ultima Online Correspondent

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 63

Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers. - T.S. Eliot

6/03/13 9:09:27 AM#131

The community in MMOs have been in a state of decline, and I do think the Free 2 Play market is partially to blame.

 

The problem stems from the nature of F2P's no-commitment model. For example, if you would go and sign up for Ultima Online, Everquest, you'd have a monthly fee to pay, something that keeps you hanging around and feeling the need to utilize before it runs out. This usually kept players a bit more committed. Also, back in EQ and UO's day, there weren't many options to scratch your MMO itch, nor was the market half the size it is today.

The size of the market is the next factor that hurts the UO/EQ ideals. Whenever a market expands and tries to pull in more and more demographics, the lower a denominator the company tries to find to bring everyone in. I think they assume hardcore MMO players will sign on to whatever they're fed, while the real challenge is how to pull in non-MMO and casual gamers, since that's where the money is at. Those casual gamers and non-MMO players don't care that much about having a community, since community requires consistent returning players and a time commitment many of them don't care to put forward.

And while it's a fun idea for a developer to be a hero and make a sandbox MMO, when one does come forward, they're slammed down for being glitchy, having poor graphics, and overall not having enough to do, even by those recalling the "Good ol' days of sandboxes." Developing a game in the modern market costs millions upon millions more than it did in Ultima's time. So it's a catch-22 for a developer. The last AAA sandbox MMO I can think of is Pre-CU SWG, and while I loved it, it was slapped down often for its glitchiness that sandbox titles are prone to. So what do you do, then? Do you spend millions of dollars to make a game that appeals to the hardcore MMO crowd and, hopefully, scrounge back enough money to stay afloat? Or do you go and make another themepark F2P game, which will attract your average gamer along with the hardcore MMO crowd, even if they do come whining and moaning? They still come.

 

 

 

 

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

6/03/13 9:12:29 AM#132
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by tkreep
isnt the result of f2p happens because the mmo dies as a p2p?

Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.

because they were bad games?

  Derros

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 941

6/03/13 9:18:55 AM#133
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by tkreep
isnt the result of f2p happens because the mmo dies as a p2p?

Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.

because they were bad games?

Thats a cop-out answer.  They were good games to many people, plenty of people stayed subbed, just not enough to make the model viable. 

 

The market is not the same market as 8-10 years ago.  There are ALOT more options out there now, back in the day, there were only sub games and not many of those either.  Today you have a new MMO coming out every other month, it seems.

 

You can say "just make a good game and people will sub" but thats meaningless, good for whom?  What other options are available for a player?  Do they have time invested somewhere else?

 

I would venture to say that many, many people would rather play an average game for free, vs a great game with a sub.

 

Does sub have its place?  Sure, but to get people in it truly has be be extraordinary, and to be frank, we dont get many extraordinary games, in any genre.

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

6/03/13 9:23:28 AM#134
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by tkreep
isnt the result of f2p happens because the mmo dies as a p2p?

Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.

because they were bad games?

Thats a cop-out answer.  They were good games to many people, plenty of people stayed subbed, just not enough to make the model viable. 

 

The market is not the same market as 8-10 years ago.  There are ALOT more options out there now, back in the day, there were only sub games and not many of those either.  Today you have a new MMO coming out every other month, it seems.

 

You can say "just make a good game and people will sub" but thats meaningless, good for whom?  What other options are available for a player?  Do they have time invested somewhere else?

 

I would venture to say that many, many people would rather play an average game for free, vs a great game with a sub.

 

Does sub have its place?  Sure, but to get people in it truly has be be extraordinary, and to be frank, we dont get many extraordinary games, in any genre.

if nobody is paying to play ur game, is ur game bad?

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3618

6/03/13 9:33:41 AM#135
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

if nobody is paying to play ur game, is ur game bad?

Not necessarily...which is why these threads are always based on fail logic. If your competition is offering a better deal people will go there.

It's been said a million times over, some ppl just don't want to understand. The market changed and people don't want to be forced to pay a sub when there is better options.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Derros

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 941

6/03/13 9:33:44 AM#136
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by tkreep
isnt the result of f2p happens because the mmo dies as a p2p?

Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.

because they were bad games?

Thats a cop-out answer.  They were good games to many people, plenty of people stayed subbed, just not enough to make the model viable. 

 

The market is not the same market as 8-10 years ago.  There are ALOT more options out there now, back in the day, there were only sub games and not many of those either.  Today you have a new MMO coming out every other month, it seems.

 

You can say "just make a good game and people will sub" but thats meaningless, good for whom?  What other options are available for a player?  Do they have time invested somewhere else?

 

I would venture to say that many, many people would rather play an average game for free, vs a great game with a sub.

 

Does sub have its place?  Sure, but to get people in it truly has be be extraordinary, and to be frank, we dont get many extraordinary games, in any genre.

if nobody is paying to play ur game, is ur game bad?

Not neccisarily,  Would you save WoW is better than EvE because it has more people playing? 

I can objectively look at EvE, even though I cant stand playing it, and say, thats a well made game.  The same for Rift, the game is well made, but it may just not be what the market wants.

 

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

6/03/13 9:35:37 AM#137
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by tkreep
isnt the result of f2p happens because the mmo dies as a p2p?

Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.

because they were bad games?

Thats a cop-out answer.  They were good games to many people, plenty of people stayed subbed, just not enough to make the model viable. 

 

The market is not the same market as 8-10 years ago.  There are ALOT more options out there now, back in the day, there were only sub games and not many of those either.  Today you have a new MMO coming out every other month, it seems.

 

You can say "just make a good game and people will sub" but thats meaningless, good for whom?  What other options are available for a player?  Do they have time invested somewhere else?

 

I would venture to say that many, many people would rather play an average game for free, vs a great game with a sub.

 

Does sub have its place?  Sure, but to get people in it truly has be be extraordinary, and to be frank, we dont get many extraordinary games, in any genre.

if nobody is paying to play ur game, is ur game bad?

Not neccisarily,  Would you save WoW is better than EvE because it has more people playing? 

I can objectively look at EvE, even though I cant stand playing it, and say, thats a well made game.  The same for Rift, the game is well made, but it may just not be what the market wants.

 

what WOw and EVE have in common buddy?

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11356

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

6/03/13 9:40:56 AM#138
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community.

Does paying an entry fee at a club/party/concert make you more willing to interact with others than if you had gotten in for free?

That seems like a real leap of logic. Is this another "keep the riff-raff out" thing?

  Derros

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 941

6/03/13 9:43:24 AM#139
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by tkreep
isnt the result of f2p happens because the mmo dies as a p2p?

Speak not those words. This isn't a thread for logic.

because they were bad games?

Thats a cop-out answer.  They were good games to many people, plenty of people stayed subbed, just not enough to make the model viable. 

 

The market is not the same market as 8-10 years ago.  There are ALOT more options out there now, back in the day, there were only sub games and not many of those either.  Today you have a new MMO coming out every other month, it seems.

 

You can say "just make a good game and people will sub" but thats meaningless, good for whom?  What other options are available for a player?  Do they have time invested somewhere else?

 

I would venture to say that many, many people would rather play an average game for free, vs a great game with a sub.

 

Does sub have its place?  Sure, but to get people in it truly has be be extraordinary, and to be frank, we dont get many extraordinary games, in any genre.

if nobody is paying to play ur game, is ur game bad?

Not neccisarily,  Would you save WoW is better than EvE because it has more people playing? 

I can objectively look at EvE, even though I cant stand playing it, and say, thats a well made game.  The same for Rift, the game is well made, but it may just not be what the market wants.

 

what WOw and EVE have in common buddy?

They're both MMOs?  They both are part of the same market, but may not neccisarily be for the same audience.  I know people who play both.

 

  You are confusing "Good" which is completely arbitrary and varies from person to person, with "successful".  Successful is about reading the market, advertising, timing, ect, in addition to the game itself, its not entirely about the product.  Again look at WoW, many people on this site hate it, and think its a terrible game, but nobody can say that it wasnt successful.  It's success was in large part due to being able to capitalize on an untapped market.

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

6/03/13 9:48:29 AM#140

Wow is the most successful themepark and Eve is the most successful sandbox, and both are P2P.  why they are the most succesful in their expertise field even requiring the absurd amount of 15$bucks a month since 2004 and 2003?  

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