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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » That MMO die so fast is the result of F2P.

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173 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/13 1:38:54 PM#61
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out.  The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.

And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.

I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.

Wrong.  How long do you think that publishers will last dropping $100 Million into a game to only get 20 to 30 Million in revenue a year before operating cost?  Then going F2P to hope to make up the money in an investment?  It cannot happen because if the publisher is not making money why keep their doors open?  They will not.  

Will it work in Tablets?  Different world and I can tell you from playing Little Empires as well as other games they are not expensive to develop and there will always be people impulse buying on them games.   however for the majority like me I will not spend a cent on a tablet game.  So the 30 people that are spending hundreds a month on the game will pay off a game that took 2 or 3 Million to make.  You will not see $100 Million tablet games any time soon.  

 Well most publishers and games did not spend 100 million developing an MMO, those are still the ultra expensive ones so your first point is moot.

2ndly tablets are becoming more powerful and very common, I do expect to see tens of millions of dollars spent on MMO's for them (the average cost of a game)

3rdly what was I wrong about?  I said that MMO's will not experience a hiccup due to the PC, not that MMO's won't have trouble with other areas.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  User Deleted
6/02/13 1:40:04 PM#62
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by Grahor

>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<

Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?

>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<

Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.

 

There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.

>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<

Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.

 

>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<

No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.

 

It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore"  MMOs.

Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?

My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.

Wow gee you sound like a great guy to play with.

 

Why don't you just go play a single player game.  You bring nothing to a multiplayer game, I don't want to play with you.  Thank god you only hop around crappy F2P titles.

 

I actually kind of agree with him, tho in a less harsh and sandy little butthole kind of way.  Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then.  The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers.  The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.

Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist.  By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing.  Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).

MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them.  I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.

Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet.  The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download.  Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.

As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals.  However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something?  No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details.  We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.

Anyhow, gaming is what it is.  Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it.  Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing.  You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.

 

As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends.  They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old.  Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore.  Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.

I agree with you that game developers need to walk a fine line between making stuff too easy and too hard.  The problem is the players that never played an MMO to play an MMO.  They want a lobby based game or a single player game for them.  That is the problem MMO players will do one of two things.  Be like you make friends in your current game and call it good when you leave and then you repeat the cycle or they are going to make friends that will follow them from game to game.  Example is someone like me.  I have had friends going as far back as UO and SWG that I sill play with today.  Some of my friends in MMOs I would gladly meet up and have a BBQ with them because we are all the same type of people.  We get a long well and play to have fun together.  It reminds me of my hockey teams I played on back in my late teens early 20s. 

The key to the casual players like myself is looking at a game that will make the content a PROCESS that a group of players share together.  Not queue up and meet 12 year old harry who wants to tell you to GO GO GO and give him the loot.  The market will be much better with just people who want to play MMOs and expect some kind of effort required and community being involved.  Not lets pay for Skyrim online because its a single player game.  That's what is causing the industries problems.  

  Gurpslord

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/22/09
Posts: 372

You can't be a hero hiding underneath your bed.

6/02/13 1:41:57 PM#63
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by Grahor

>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<

Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?

>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<

Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.

 

There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.

>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<

Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.

 

>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<

No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.

 

It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore"  MMOs.

Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?

My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.

Wow gee you sound like a great guy to play with.

 

Why don't you just go play a single player game.  You bring nothing to a multiplayer game, I don't want to play with you.  Thank god you only hop around crappy F2P titles.

 

I actually kind of agree with him, tho in a less harsh and sandy little butthole kind of way.  Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then.  The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers.  The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.

Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist.  By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing.  Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).

MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them.  I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.

Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet.  The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download.  Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.

As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals.  However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something?  No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details.  We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.

Anyhow, gaming is what it is.  Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it.  Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing.  You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.

 

As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends.  They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old.  Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore.  Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.

Since when do you need to be some hardcore gamer that plays 40+ hours a week just to care about the community and respect your fellow players?

 

You don't.  I've always met plenty of casual players in MMO's who were just as considerate if not more so than "hardcore" players.  The problem makers in communities are the people who like the person I quoted just don't care.  They are in their "virtual bubble" and have no consequences for their actions. 

They can be rude, they can rip people off for their time and contributions. they can rudely abandon groups with not even as much of an excuse as to why they have to leave the rest of the people they were playing "with" stranded and wasting their time.

 

It has nothing to do with how hardcore you game, it has to do with your personal character.  As he said F2P games are heaven for people like him, because he can just "beat" the game and move on.  He doesn't even have to pay anything most of the time. 

 

So what is the benefit of him playing an MMO for everyone else but him?  He's a freeloader, he's a leech on the resources of the developers, and he admits he is antagonistic towards the community that plays the games.  I mean how is it a good thing to have the "higher population" f2p conversions promise when this is the kind of players you are going to be playing with.

 

 

Well, I would think (and I say this because I don't pretend to know statistics) that he is in fact the minority.  F2P wouldn't be happening and frankly WORKING if his type was the majority.  yeah, sadly his type is far more likely to rear their hideously trollish heads in F2P games, but they'll, as he admitted, get bored easy and run off soon enough.

So, what good is he? Nothing really.  However his type is no reason to stop a system that's clearly working for a LOT of games.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/13 1:45:13 PM#64
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by Grahor

>>Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.<<

Including P2P mmos. So it's not a problem of F2P, is it?

>>Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.<<

Yes, because I have no interest in "investing" my life into a game. I'm playing MMOs to have a bit of fun after work, if my family life allows me. Then (after a couple of months of casual playing) I've seen everything this MMO has to offer, I'm getting bored, I'm going to another one.

 

There is no power in the world that will make me log in to repeat "dailies" or to "raid" or another pointless boring idiotism. There is no "end game" for me because the game has ended; it's over; there is no, and never will be, nothing further of interest for me in this game.

>>Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.<<

Because I'm not looking for freaking friends in MMOs. I'm not interesting in developing relationships or "investing" in the "community". I have family and real-life friends, I barely have enough time to invest in relationships with THEM, MMO communities may go hang themselves.

 

>>Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.<<

No, I haven't. Having only time to play a couple of hours 2-3 times a week I haven't ever felt that.

 

It's simply not your world anymore, MMOs. It's mine now. You are a dead end; go die off somewhere in the "hardcore"  MMOs.

Not sure if your giving examples of what is happening or if you are explaining your personal feelings?

My personal feelings, which are, in my opinion, very good examples of what is happening.

Wow gee you sound like a great guy to play with.

 

Why don't you just go play a single player game.  You bring nothing to a multiplayer game, I don't want to play with you.  Thank god you only hop around crappy F2P titles.

 

I actually kind of agree with him, tho in a less harsh and sandy little butthole kind of way.  Life just isn't the same as it was for us back then.  The people who supported that "hardcore" mode are grown up now, have kids, families and careers.  The games coming out now cater to them because there's more of us than the remnant hardcore group, there's simply more money in catering to us than them.

Would I love to find an MMO that could keep my attention 100% of the time (when I can Play) sure, of course I would, but that kind of game just won't exist.  By the very design of those kinds of games, I believe that only putting in a bit of time here and there prevents us from feeling like we're "accomplishing" anything, so we stop playing.  Meanwhile games now offer us ways to feel like we're doing something in an hour or so, but of course that comes with the downside that we're going to chew thru the content in a few months of casual play (Or weeks of hardcore if you're that guy).

MMOs are less than what they were simply because of the people playing them.  I'm not saying there isn't hardcore players, I'm just saying that your market share is much smaller than the casual one and companies are out to make money, not go all chairty so a small group can have a game for a while.

Games are going to come and go now for as long as the genre lasts, and it will last for a long long time yet.  The trick now is that as gamers we demand more for less and we expect to get it because we can just abandon one game and go to another in literally the blink of a download.  Companies have to walk a fine line to give gamers something they'll enjoy.

As far as community goes, when I play a game I look to find people to play it with, fun folks who share a common sense of humor and set of goals.  However when I leave the game do I feel like I've lost family or something?  No, I never want to know anyones real names or dig into personal details.  We're friends, but not the kind who are going to hang out on sundays and grill steaks.

Anyhow, gaming is what it is.  Take it for what you can and if you can't enjoy it then don't play it.  Easy as that, all these folks whining and moaning about how things weren't how they were 10 years ago need to realize that's the case with everything and it's still changing.  You sound like my grandmother when you say stuff like this.

 

As an aside, I know 2 "hardcore" gamers that I consider friends.  They are both jobless, have no significant other and live with their parents and they're almost 40 years old.  Some will say that's a stereotype but frankly I don't know a whole lot of people who pull their 40 hours, married with kids and commitments thing who can call themselves hardcore.  Frankly saying you're hardcore is like saying you've given up on the rest of life...that's obviously my opinion tho.

I agree with you that game developers need to walk a fine line between making stuff too easy and too hard.  The problem is the players that never played an MMO to play an MMO.  They want a lobby based game or a single player game for them.  That is the problem MMO players will do one of two things.  Be like you make friends in your current game and call it good when you leave and then you repeat the cycle or they are going to make friends that will follow them from game to game.  Example is someone like me.  I have had friends going as far back as UO and SWG that I sill play with today.  Some of my friends in MMOs I would gladly meet up and have a BBQ with them because we are all the same type of people.  We get a long well and play to have fun together.  It reminds me of my hockey teams I played on back in my late teens early 20s. 

The key to the casual players like myself is looking at a game that will make the content a PROCESS that a group of players share together.  Not queue up and meet 12 year old harry who wants to tell you to GO GO GO and give him the loot.  The market will be much better with just people who want to play MMOs and expect some kind of effort required and community being involved.  Not lets pay for Skyrim online because its a single player game.  That's what is causing the industries problems.  

 While I think there is some truth to what you are saying.  The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.

While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse.  The market has become dependent on them.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  User Deleted
6/02/13 1:46:18 PM#65
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

While the pc market is a concern I don't think it's as big a concern as you make out.  The PC industry is still a multi multi billion dollar industry as is the MMO industry.

And MMO's are and will continue to be made for tablets and tablets are becoming more powerfull all the time.

I don't think the MMO industry will de, or even hiccup really, because of PC's.

Wrong.  How long do you think that publishers will last dropping $100 Million into a game to only get 20 to 30 Million in revenue a year before operating cost?  Then going F2P to hope to make up the money in an investment?  It cannot happen because if the publisher is not making money why keep their doors open?  They will not.  

Will it work in Tablets?  Different world and I can tell you from playing Little Empires as well as other games they are not expensive to develop and there will always be people impulse buying on them games.   however for the majority like me I will not spend a cent on a tablet game.  So the 30 people that are spending hundreds a month on the game will pay off a game that took 2 or 3 Million to make.  You will not see $100 Million tablet games any time soon.  

 Well most publishers and games did not spend 100 million developing an MMO, those are still the ultra expensive ones so your first point is moot.

2ndly tablets are becoming more powerful and very common, I do expect to see tens of millions of dollars spent on MMO's for them (the average cost of a game)

3rdly what was I wrong about?  I said that MMO's will not experience a hiccup due to the PC, not that MMO's won't have trouble with other areas.

True most publishers didnt spend 100 Million developing an MMO.  Today there are more and more.  Look at defiance, north of $100 mill to make that game and the TV show.  

Yea Tablets would be good for Lobby and single player games.  Some small MMO games like Little Empire however they will never spend $100 million on a game.  Well maybe not in the next decade.  One day when cost are that high yes.  

I think MMOs will be due to the player base wanting a Single Player game in a MMO format that is just a Single player game.  Like for the most part SWTOR is a single player game.  Its not what MMOs use to be.  

  User Deleted
6/02/13 1:59:59 PM#66
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 While I think there is some truth to what you are saying.  The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.

While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse.  The market has become dependent on them.

What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse.  Why do I say that?  Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down.  Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance.  If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations.  I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion.  All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years?  Trion is not making that money back right now.  They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance.  How can this model be sustainable?  In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.  

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5553

6/02/13 2:04:30 PM#67
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 While I think there is some truth to what you are saying.  The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.

While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse.  The market has become dependent on them.

What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse.  Why do I say that?  Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down.  Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance.  If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations.  I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion.  All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years?  Trion is not making that money back right now.  They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance.  How can this model be sustainable?  In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.  

Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.

 

Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  DeVoDeVo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/13
Posts: 89

6/02/13 2:04:34 PM#68
Originally posted by Waterlily

Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.

 

Hundreds die in months?  It's a wonder there are any left to play.

  User Deleted
6/02/13 2:13:09 PM#69
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 While I think there is some truth to what you are saying.  The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.

While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse.  The market has become dependent on them.

What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse.  Why do I say that?  Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down.  Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance.  If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations.  I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion.  All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years?  Trion is not making that money back right now.  They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance.  How can this model be sustainable?  In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.  

Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.

 

Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.

And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold?  What would you call that?  I call that a deck of cards that collapsed.  Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today.  Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now.  Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ .  So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down.  Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers.  The same thing will happen to the MMO industry.  You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever.  It still will be a major change from the industry of today.  

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5553

6/02/13 2:14:48 PM#70
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 While I think there is some truth to what you are saying.  The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.

While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse.  The market has become dependent on them.

What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse.  Why do I say that?  Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down.  Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance.  If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations.  I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion.  All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years?  Trion is not making that money back right now.  They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance.  How can this model be sustainable?  In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.  

Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.

 

Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.

And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold?  What would you call that?  I call that a deck of cards that collapsed.  Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today.  Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now.  Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ .  So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down.  Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers.  The same thing will happen to the MMO industry.  You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever.  It still will be a major change from the industry of today.  

I would call that a fantasy.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  dgarbini

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/05
Posts: 186

6/02/13 2:16:46 PM#71
You know what's killing MMO's people spending to much time on forums and not enough time playing the damn things. :p
  User Deleted
6/02/13 2:19:46 PM#72
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 While I think there is some truth to what you are saying.  The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.

While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse.  The market has become dependent on them.

What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse.  Why do I say that?  Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down.  Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance.  If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations.  I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion.  All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years?  Trion is not making that money back right now.  They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance.  How can this model be sustainable?  In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.  

Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.

 

Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.

And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold?  What would you call that?  I call that a deck of cards that collapsed.  Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today.  Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now.  Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ .  So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down.  Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers.  The same thing will happen to the MMO industry.  You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever.  It still will be a major change from the industry of today.  

I would call that a fantasy.

Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research.  So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY!  If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up.  So keep flapping your gums.  

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

6/02/13 2:20:53 PM#73
Originally posted by Murugan

It has nothing to do with how hardcore you game, it has to do with your personal character.  As he said F2P games are heaven for people like him, because he can just "beat" the game and move on.  He doesn't even have to pay anything most of the time. 

 

So what is the benefit of him playing an MMO for everyone else but him?  He's a freeloader, he's a leech on the resources of the developers, and he admits he is antagonistic towards the community that plays the games.  I mean how is it a good thing to have the "higher population" f2p conversions promise when this is the kind of players you are going to be playing with.

 

 

Hm? You are reading too much into my post. I'm perfectly okay to drop $20-$30 at the F2P game I'm currently interested in and playing, so I'm pretty much exactly what developers hope for when they made the game.

 

Also, I'm not "antagonistic" towards community at large; I'm indifferent to it. When I'm playing in groups, I'm not particularly rude or inconsiderate, unless people I'm playing with are complete and utter dolts. I'm antagonistic to people with their heads up their backsides, which, by the way, describes the vast majority of posters on this site, so after reading a thread or two here I become extremely abrasive.

 

So, about groups - even though I'm not inconsiderate or rude, I'm not trying to develop any relationships, befriend anyone or form a lasting group or guild - because it's useless. I'll log in next time in 2 or 3 days; by that time everyone else would either level ahead or behind me; I'll never see any of them again. So what's the point of "community" for me? It's irrelevant for me; I'm perfectly okay with autogrouping and random matching, because I'm not going to waste an hour trying to make a group.

 

*shrug* you say, that "MMOs are not for me", but the fact is, I'm the market. I'm the norm. It's you, "hardcores", who are the outlier; it's you who are in the wrong genre. MMOs are not for you anymore. Deal with it.

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 695

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

6/02/13 2:24:07 PM#74

Yes, MMOs die because F2P MMOs are a far better option so they are killing P2P MMOs. Granted, some free models suck. But Aion, TERA, GW2 (buy to play) and soon to be RIFT are all amazing free models. They offer FAR more than what a pay to play game would offer.

 

Heck, most pay to play MMOs have cash shops anyway...even if its usually vanity stuff...they still have cash shops. Heck, EVE had that stupidely expensive monocole thing in their cash shop, I lolled so hard when I saw the price. Same with WoWs vanity pets/mounts. Cause I could buy stuff in GW2 for FAR cheaper and get way more out of it.

Isabella and Laenaya are on Photobucket!

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim

My (mostly) scenery screenshots of heavily modded Skyrim

http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Vendayn/library/Skyrim/Anime%20Skyrim/Aesthetics

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

6/02/13 2:24:13 PM#75
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by colddog04

I would call that a fantasy.

Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research.  So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY!  If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up.  So keep flapping your gums.  

Since it's you who've made the postulate, it's up to you to support it with research, data and links. Not up to him. So do it. Support what you've said.

 

Ah, what am I talking about. A mmorpg.com poster understanding the basics of debating? Forget it. Not enough brain capacity and education.

  GN-003

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/10
Posts: 78

6/02/13 2:26:23 PM#76
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Mabinogi is an excellent f2p model and it still has people playing from when the game first came out.  

Ah, but Mabinogi also isn't a linear, derivative, uninspired themepark MMO that we've all seen a gazillion times. Funny how that works, isn't it? I'd consider it my favorite MMORPG of all time and it's the only MMORPG I've played for more than a few weeks. My longest stretch 6 was months or so, and I've gone back to it several times over the last few years. There's nothing quite like it on the market.

If developers attempted to make their game unique instead of wasting millions of dollars and years trying to out-do World of Warcraft, maybe the genre wouldn't be in such a tough spot. Instead, let's blame the economy or payment models! It's a convenient excuse for companies to make when their sub-par product fails miserably.

  Instigator-Jones

Elite Member

Joined: 2/07/13
Posts: 489

6/02/13 2:26:36 PM#77
This thread is completely inane; "OMG! MMOs are dying because... because the stupid-stupid FTPers are Ruining it for everyone... /sniffle"
There are so many games flooding the market now that its actually difficult to find the one that meets individual criteria. Going FTP (WITHOUT a BTW cash shop) is completely reasonable. It gives players a chance to try them out and decide whether or not it's a viable game for them. Getting butt-hurt because peeps bail on a game (probably YOUR favorite game) is simply stupid. If anything, Devs need to stick to the FTP model right off the bat, and focus on the content and making it interesting for the player.

The sadest thing about this thread is that it's such troll/click bait, and I'm actually sucked in to post.
  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5553

6/02/13 2:26:52 PM#78
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 While I think there is some truth to what you are saying.  The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.

While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse.  The market has become dependent on them.

What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse.  Why do I say that?  Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down.  Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance.  If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations.  I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion.  All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years?  Trion is not making that money back right now.  They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance.  How can this model be sustainable?  In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.  

Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.

 

Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.

And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold?  What would you call that?  I call that a deck of cards that collapsed.  Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today.  Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now.  Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ .  So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down.  Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers.  The same thing will happen to the MMO industry.  You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever.  It still will be a major change from the industry of today.  

I would call that a fantasy.

Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research.  So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY!  If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up.  So keep flapping your gums.  

Sorry, bro. You are the one that hasn't done any research. You keep saying that same thing over and over again - the F2P model is going to collapse. Yet, you have not brought forward one shred of evidence, not one single thing to support your theory.

 

The closest you have come is saying that the market is getting saturated. Well yeah, it is, which is exactly why P2P is struggling so damned much right now and will continue to struggle in the years to come. There are so many solid options available to the players that are F2P right now that P2P is continually losing market share. But even if the market becomes over saturated with F2P MMORPGs, it does not mean that everything is going to collapse. It just means that the smaller, less successful games will have to shut down. But HALF the market in the next 3 years? Pfft, it's just a ridiculous assertion with zero evidence to support it. 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  User Deleted
6/02/13 2:29:34 PM#79
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by Murugan

It has nothing to do with how hardcore you game, it has to do with your personal character.  As he said F2P games are heaven for people like him, because he can just "beat" the game and move on.  He doesn't even have to pay anything most of the time. 

 

So what is the benefit of him playing an MMO for everyone else but him?  He's a freeloader, he's a leech on the resources of the developers, and he admits he is antagonistic towards the community that plays the games.  I mean how is it a good thing to have the "higher population" f2p conversions promise when this is the kind of players you are going to be playing with.

 

 

Hm? You are reading too much into my post. I'm perfectly okay to drop $20-$30 at the F2P game I'm currently interested in and playing, so I'm pretty much exactly what developers hope for when they made the game.

 

Also, I'm not "antagonistic" towards community at large; I'm indifferent to it. When I'm playing in groups, I'm not particularly rude or inconsiderate, unless people I'm playing with are complete and utter dolts. I'm antagonistic to people with their heads up their backsides, which, by the way, describes the vast majority of posters on this site, so after reading a thread or two here I become extremely abrasive.

 

So, about groups - even though I'm not inconsiderate or rude, I'm not trying to develop any relationships, befriend anyone or form a lasting group or guild - because it's useless. I'll log in next time in 2 or 3 days; by that time everyone else would either level ahead or behind me; I'll never see any of them again. So what's the point of "community" for me? It's irrelevant for me; I'm perfectly okay with autogrouping and random matching, because I'm not going to waste an hour trying to make a group.

 

*shrug* you say, that "MMOs are not for me", but the fact is, I'm the market. I'm the norm. It's you, "hardcores", who are the outlier; it's you who are in the wrong genre. MMOs are not for you anymore. Deal with it.

You are only the norm because there are too many MMOs out there that need people like you.  When the publishers shut down because players like you are in the MMO genera and were never met for the genera you will see what happens to the MMO genera then.  As much as you like to say that MMOs are not for you anymore thats only because you think they are for you when single player games are.  End of story you are not what the MMO genera as been nor made it a strong industry.  You are only the affect of too many MMOs on the market trying to get as many people to play their game as possible.  Its not sustainable and never will be.  You call everyone hardcore that plays an MMO for community and accomplishment thats not hardcore thats the genera not pay $20 play the content move to the next game like you.  As much as you want to think you are its future your dead wrong.  That is why we are at a tipping point now that publishers are having a hard time making the money back that they invested.  Once we get back to a normal level of open MMOs to Market publishers will stick to what keeps players playing for more than 2 months.  

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

6/02/13 2:36:12 PM#80

Desktop/laptop PC sales are declining true but this is not a permanent thing once tablet saturation is reached,then the other PC sectors will pick up again.Tablets are a new segment of the PC market and so people are buying one now instead of upgrading their PC but once they all have tablets they will want to upgrade their PCs.

I am the proud owner of a Nexus 7 I love it and even do game on it,but there are some tasks and games I do not want to do on a tablet that a desktop PC is far superior at.There is room for both and equilibrium will be reached.

Anyone crying death of PCs can join the legions of market Analysts who have being saying that since the early 90s and been wrong.

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