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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » No World PvP? No Thanks...

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167 posts found
  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 774

5/22/13 5:39:18 PM#101
Originally posted by Punk999
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by Punk999

There are plenty of other games  that will have your meaningless world pvp.

Wildstar for example.

PVP servers that have zero world pvp content at launch but instance pvp just like wow.

Yeah not everyone can handle real PVP I guess. :)

WoW is a bad example, PVE game where they just smacked on PVP + it is faction based and casual.

I dont mind this "Real pvp" My favorite MMO PVP is AC Darktide server and next would be shadowbane.

Theres no need for worldpvp if you dont lose anything when you die.

That we really agree on. It is silly with no penalities. I'm currently playing Darkfall, before that I played EVE and before L2. You lose something when you die in all of the games and not punishing players for playing bad is just stupid.

  eiekal

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 20

5/22/13 5:43:52 PM#102

Lets step back a minute, guys. Pvpers are not the bad guys.  We arent irrational lug heads that just want to grief lowbie players over and over again.  I'm feeling that this is becoming a stereotype. 

In my view, the majority of pvpers know they can't get everything they want. Yes, some pvpers dont want to ruin the pvp immersion and allow level restrictions to protect lowbies which some would call griefing. But I think the majority would be fine with it in order to get a solid pvp game.  Do pve'ers feel they can't get everything they want?

With a zone for pvp, pvpers wont get everything they want.  Wont pve'ers get everything they want?  Who knows, maybe they'll put the best gear in dungeons in the pvp zone and pve'ers wont get everything they want.  A question I dont know the answer too is, will this game have instant raid zones that pve'ers wont be bothered by pvpers?

I think the game would do fine with open world pvp.  Alas, this isnt in the cards.  Remember, these threads are popping up because pvpers are disappointed in the direction the game is going.  Why are pve'ers crapping on these threads?  I'm thinking pve'ers are less willing to compromise than pvp'ers.  Pve'ers get to have their say so let pvpers have their say too.  Let the original poster voice his thoughts in this pvp thread and those of like mind post theirs. Remember, You pve'ers are the visitors in this thread.

A side note:
I know ppl try to paint Eve as not being a AAA mmo and it's subjective with no standard definition on the web. I also realize that it's said that a AAA mmo is a MMO with 10% more subs than however many EVE has at the time.  But my subjective definition of a AAA mmo includes Eve.  Eve has shown that a mmo can be pvp orientated and survive the long run... a real long run and is still going.  Something the game makers need to take note.

 

P.S. This is all my opinion.  This should go without me saying but some ppl are thick =D

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/22/13 6:22:23 PM#103
Nan

Don't put up with gw2s exceptionally arcadey take on rvr.

Pm me and join me in ps2, it ain't at the daoc / ps1 level of rvr, but its a dam site better at it than gw2

I like gw2 pve though.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/22/13 6:25:49 PM#104
Eikal yes eve is great.

But... daoc was great too.

Eve is the best model for pvp in a sandbox
Daoc is the best model for pvp in a themepark (by that I mean old school open workday themeparks, not this modern instanced to hell and back stuff)

Now maybe one day someone will make a cool new way to pvp.

But those 2 are the the best mmos for pvp so far.

I laugh at all this vanilla wow nonsense.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/22/13 6:27:57 PM#105
Also eve isn't AAA and neither was daoc. Both are independent. Well until stupid everything they touch turns to shit, reverse midas EA bought mythic.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/22/13 6:30:17 PM#106
Eikal,
Considering the bosses on this project come from uo and daoc. And the fact they have stated this. Pve / pvp AND crafted gear will be equal, and they won't do special pvp only stat wow bullshit.
  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

5/22/13 9:46:34 PM#107
Originally posted by Dauzqul

So ESO stated that their PvP will be [mod edit]., dedicated PvP area.

 

I'm done with the sass. No thanks.

 

This game seems to be more like a medieval SWTOR, anyways.

I think when you choose pve questions, you don't have to deal with open world pvp.

It's not going to be pvp only no matter what you choose, every one will have their chance to choose pvp or pve.

  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 959

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

5/22/13 9:53:36 PM#108

oh you mean when i dont fill like doing PvP i dont have to get ganked by ass holes, and the problem with this is ?

 

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 774

5/22/13 9:59:46 PM#109
Originally posted by Squeak69

oh you mean when i dont fill like doing PvP i dont have to get ganked by ass holes, and the problem with this is ?

 

Maybe you would have sounded smart if you could spell properly. Ganking just to gank is pointless and boring but if there is a reward for doing it then its good, or penality for you if you die etc.

  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

5/22/13 10:15:17 PM#110
Originally posted by Squeak69

oh you mean when i dont fill like doing PvP i dont have to get ganked by ass holes, and the problem with this is ?

 

Yes you can set-up your way of gameplay by simply check pve questions, or even solo if you like, and you will be placed with people like your-self in the same instance, so you won't have to pvp at all if you don't want to.

  Olgark

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 280

5/22/13 11:39:09 PM#111

The pvp is taking place in Cyrodiil which is going to be far bigger than the Oblivion Cyrodiil so in effect it will fee like open world pvp with the quest givers in the towns and cities in that zone.

 

So yes you can kill people doing quests it just wont be griefing low level players in the newbie zones.

  Ladrann27

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/13
Posts: 43

5/23/13 12:02:37 AM#112

A lot of people seem to think that having large scale fights is a good thing. What happened to only small skirmishes? I had some of my best moments in small scale group fights where actual skill is involved, not in the zerg of 200vs200, that is just a mess and there is almost never any organization in it.

Look at GW2 for example, the battles in there are just large zergs running around the map chasing each other, in all respects that is not something I would call good PvP. These battles should happen I agree, but not continuously . DAoC definetly had fun PvP but it was nothing more then that, you had the other factions and they were built in to be your enemy. By this I mean that it was hard coded that these players where your enemy and your faction allies.

To me it would make for a far more appealing, immersive and fun experience if there was OWPvP, where clans would form their alliances (for example as in Lineage 2) and would even be able to build castles / strongholds. People would take care of the politics in and out of game themselves and incentives to fight would be land and resource control and clan/alliance pride.

You have griefers running around killing your lower level allies or just low level players in general? Why let the game developer hard code something to stop this? In a system I just described you could take matters in your own hands and take them down. Want to take it a step further? Declare war on their alliance and capture or destroy their castle. They will think twice before griefing again.

In a MMORPG like this you will make many friends (much stronger sense of community) and you will also make enemies which you would be proud of if you defeat them. Instead of just farming zergs for that next piece of gear.

A system like this would open any game up for so many possibilities and instantly creates a very immersive endgame experience.

I am baffled that people would prefer a capture the flag type battleground grind for gear or a zerg vs zerg never ending battle over a system I just described. But to each their own I guess.

  eAzydaman

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 220

5/23/13 2:27:02 AM#113

Can someone explain to me why everyone is comparing it to DAOC's pvp? The most fun I had in DAOC was sneaking over to mid or hib and PVPing. 

Open world PVP is great, but it should be very hard. In DAOC if you died you had a solid 30 minute ride back. ESO could have done so much cool stuff with it like having a border with some sort of notifcation system when enemies pass into your continent etc. That way higher levels can come help out to prevent ganking.

For me open world pvp is the thrill of venturing over to enemy territory and sneking around. The only good thing I remember of WOW was OW pvp. Only played for 5-6 months back in 04.

  Akerbeltz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 150

5/23/13 2:32:09 AM#114

As we have duplicate threads now, I repost my answer to Iselin's interesting remarks:

 

Originally posted by Akerbeltz

 

Iselin:

Good ole vanilla WOW...different times...different people. My old guild used Menethil Harbour as our home base and protected the surrounding area.

I think we all know that the 400,000,000 people worldwide who play MMOs today (yeah it surprised me too: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/15/mmo-infographic/ ) are not the same tight, dedicated hobbyist  community that used to play in 2004.

Those who think that the systems that used to work 10 years ago simply because we wanted to make them work and we policed them ourselves can still work today are dreaming.

This segregated PvE/PvP approach like DAoC used to have, GW2 used last year and ESO is using now is the best system that can be used considering the general behavior of players in 2013. Even Cyrodiil in ESO won't be nearly as well-behaved and cooperative as the frontiers were in DAoC back then.

A lot of people these days just love to "game" the game with cheats and exploits and griefing the "gimp" is something some PvP guilds dedicate themselves to... complete with Youtube instructions on how to do it.

Developers these days have to take a more hands-on approach to design. They need to spend a lot more time thinking about what they can do to try to prevent asshats from ruining it too much for everyone else.

PvEing in a griefing-free zone is about as close to open world PvP as they can come in an MMO in 2013 if they hope the game will have wide appeal. Games like DF-Unholy Wars are just retro niche games that appeal to a small portion of the population. Heck, even the PvE portion of Cyrodiil here has some PvErs already worried because their experience of open world PvP is WOW 2013 not WOW 2004.

As depressing as it sounds, what you say in your post rings true.

 

OWPvP is a must in a Role Playing Game: it makes the virtual world believable and opens up a lot of possibilities for metagame. Although people may solely associate it with combat, OWPvP provides with options for clan politics, faction treasons, counter-espionage, trading routes protected by mercenaries, bounty-hunting... That is, OWPvP puts the base for the only viable form of "endgame" in a MMORPG. Of course, to guarantee OWPvP is gonna work there must a solid consequences system (UO put great foundations for this).

 

Problem is what you say in your post, which is quite sad... I remember back in the day players approached MMORPGs with a Role Playing mentality: they wanted to develop their characters and build up a legacy in the virtual world, and they wanted this virtual world to make it work. There was a sense of community, every player had a reputation, and if you behaved like a ADHD ridden asshat the best you could expect was a wall of silence and the Ban-hammer.

 

We all know what happened next: Post BC-WoW, catering to the lowest common denominator among gamers for the sake of a quick buck. Suddenly we had macros, cheats, PVE and PVP segregation, unworthy crafting, auction houses, LFGs, soloers... and taking more and more distance from the RPG essence to become mindless monster-slashing arcades, a collection of battlegrounds and a scripted personal story in which the game is gonna tell you you're the hero and the savior (as anybody else). And a chat.

 

Yeah, I think this genre is pretty dead. It has lost it, completely lost it. I think the only hope RPers may have is among indie companies that look after a niche, mature public who know what they want.

 

Another thing: Call me a lunatic, but I think the only way to guarantee that your RP-gaming experience is not ruined by professional grievers and cheaters is through some identification system that requires your National Identification Number, Driving License Number or something to play. And if you screw it, you'll be perma-banned for good. Yeah, it'd be a pretty intrusive system but you know, intrusion is what happens when people don't exercise their liberty in a responsible way.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2618

110100100

5/23/13 3:07:20 AM#115


Originally posted by Kuro1n

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Kuro1n

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by eiekal I'm reading alot about griefing.   Would it be fair to say that those that don't want more aspects of pvp in the game wouldnt be against it if there was a way to minimize griefing in the game?  The more tools you add to remove it the more you pull away from open world PvP and the more you alienate open world PvP fans. Same thing in the other direction, the more you make the PvE world a PvP park the more you alienate pure PvEers. So you have to pick what game you wana make. There is very little compromise or wiggle room. IMO I think ESO picked the best option with the DAoC PvP model. Pure PvEers get their space and no one can force them to PvP or wreck their immersion by killing their bankers a quest givers. On the other side PvPers get a giant map where they get to do what they enjoy. Wana kill quest givers, you can. Wana run a dungeon where at any min you can run into the other faction, you can. Really is the best of both worlds. It is not open world pvp if there are factions with invisible magic rules making it so you can't attack your own faction. Pure pvpers dont want lame factions, that is for esport and other silly things. The gw2 (and daoc?) model is extremely boring, having a separate map or certain part for PVEers means its not open world at all. Also you didn't respond to my previous post about factions: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5743909#5743909 Then maybe I should point out... your on the wrong forum. This game is designed with 5-6 years behind them with 3 factions and a AvA map much like DAoC. By your avatar you know very well AA is the game for you. ESO would need to be reworked from the ground up to make it a open world PvP game everywhere. Heck even the AvA map would be useless as its designed now. Its designed for 3 factions to fight over it. So like I said, your on the wrong forum.Sadly I'm starting to believe AA won't be the game for me either. To much punishment for being a pirate. :(

 

  Originally posted by baphamet Originally posted by Kuro1n Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by eiekal I'm reading alot about griefing.   Would it be fair to say that those that don't want more aspects of pvp in the game wouldnt be against it if there was a way to minimize griefing in the game? 


The more tools you add to remove it the more you pull away from open world PvP and the more you alienate open world PvP fans. Same thing in the other direction, the more you make the PvE world a PvP park the more you alienate pure PvEers. So you have to pick what game you wana make. There is very little compromise or wiggle room. IMO I think ESO picked the best option with the DAoC PvP model. Pure PvEers get their space and no one can force them to PvP or wreck their immersion by killing their bankers a quest givers. On the other side PvPers get a giant map where they get to do what they enjoy. Wana kill quest givers, you can. Wana run a dungeon where at any min you can run into the other faction, you can. Really is the best of both worlds.
It is not open world pvp if there are factions with invisible magic rules making it so you can't attack your own faction. Pure pvpers dont want lame factions, that is for esport and other silly things. The gw2 (and daoc?) model is extremely boring, having a separate map or certain part for PVEers means its not open world at all. Also you didn't respond to my previous post about factions: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5743909#5743909
you are absolutely incorrect, open world pvp isn't exclusive to FFA pvp. having factions or not is irrelevant. "open world pvp" just means that you can attack someone in the open world rather than only in certain designated areas, has nothing to do with the ruleset. and i don't give a crap what "pure pvp'ers" want. if you were a pure pvper you wouldn't be playing rpg's, you would be playing FPS or even RTS. this is coming from someone who also likes pvp but FFA isn't the be all end all of open world pvp, its just one type of open world pvp.
Well open world has to do with factions also imo. Otherwise it is just faction PVP in either designated or nondesignated areas. Actually I wasn't the one who used the term first, I just repeated it because I don't think there is such a thing as pure PVPer or w/e. And yes I do play competetively in FPS games and also playing Darkfall which features FPS type combat that doesn't mean I don't like RPGs though because as I said, I'm not looking for some fair battle or esport type gameplay when im in an MMORPG, stats and such should be there just like zerging and elite clans... It's all part of the 'war'.

 


as long as you can still be attacked in the open, it is open world pvp.

just because you cannot attack members of your faction, or race, or whatever the ruleset may be, doesn't mean you cannot still be attacked by a member of an opposing faction.

if you like FFA the best right on! just know that FFA isn't the only OWpvp ruleset there is.


  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2618

110100100

5/23/13 3:21:29 AM#116


Originally posted by Olgark
The pvp is taking place in Cyrodiil which is going to be far bigger than the Oblivion Cyrodiil so in effect it will fee like open world pvp with the quest givers in the towns and cities in that zone.

 

So yes you can kill people doing quests it just wont be griefing low level players in the newbie zones.


this is what i think (and hope) too. i just wish they would be more specific on exactly how big cyrodiil is in comparison to the other faction pve areas.

yes they said it will be as big as roughly 9 pve "zones" within a faction, but how many zones are even in a faction area?

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1700

5/23/13 10:27:44 AM#117
Originally posted by Dauzqul

So ESO stated that their PvP will be [mod edit]., dedicated PvP area.

 

I'm done with the sass. No thanks.

 

This game seems to be more like a medieval SWTOR, anyways.

No world pvp? I could not care less. Not sure why do you think all should care about.

  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 774

5/23/13 10:29:23 AM#118
Originally posted by Ladrann27

A lot of people seem to think that having large scale fights is a good thing. What happened to only small skirmishes? I had some of my best moments in small scale group fights where actual skill is involved, not in the zerg of 200vs200, that is just a mess and there is almost never any organization in it.

Look at GW2 for example, the battles in there are just large zergs running around the map chasing each other, in all respects that is not something I would call good PvP. These battles should happen I agree, but not continuously . DAoC definetly had fun PvP but it was nothing more then that, you had the other factions and they were built in to be your enemy. By this I mean that it was hard coded that these players where your enemy and your faction allies.

To me it would make for a far more appealing, immersive and fun experience if there was OWPvP, where clans would form their alliances (for example as in Lineage 2) and would even be able to build castles / strongholds. People would take care of the politics in and out of game themselves and incentives to fight would be land and resource control and clan/alliance pride.

You have griefers running around killing your lower level allies or just low level players in general? Why let the game developer hard code something to stop this? In a system I just described you could take matters in your own hands and take them down. Want to take it a step further? Declare war on their alliance and capture or destroy their castle. They will think twice before griefing again.

In a MMORPG like this you will make many friends (much stronger sense of community) and you will also make enemies which you would be proud of if you defeat them. Instead of just farming zergs for that next piece of gear.

A system like this would open any game up for so many possibilities and instantly creates a very immersive endgame experience.

I am baffled that people would prefer a capture the flag type battleground grind for gear or a zerg vs zerg never ending battle over a system I just described. But to each their own I guess.

large fight and skill depends very much on the game. GW2 was completely void of skill while L2 you could massively slaughter the enemy by having better organization and a clan that did what they were supposed to. Moved together and placed itself in strategic areas.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/23/13 10:54:51 AM#119
Yeah that's just gw2 (and war)

You had variety with skirmishes, big battles, medium battles, roaming rights, posting scouts and what have you in daoc and planetside.

It remains to be seen if tesos take on rvr will be more like the old school strategic stuff or more like the modern follow that zerg and keep rolling those keeps style.

3 things stand in its favour though.
1 cyrodil is part of the world, you will cross a border into it, unlike gw2 where you just warp to basicly another game.
2 it won't be 4 independent medium sized mmos that you warp out of then join a queue to warp into another one, if cyrodil is split up, you will just travel through borders from say east cyrodil to south cyrodil
3 defending will be important to gain access to craft resources, open dungeons etc.. so this should discourage the mass rolling mobs, but still allow for huge battles when a major offensive is staged.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/23/13 10:56:20 AM#120
basicly people who never played daoc, but have played gw2 need to stop thinking the frontiers were like WvW. They weren't. Hopefully cyrodil will be more like the frontiers.
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