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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » To our older DAOC players

11 posts found
  ragz45

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 482

 
OP  5/21/13 1:00:18 PM#1

I'm a long time DAOC player, and personally I was very excited for GW2's WvW, but I found it fell short, by a long shot, of my experiences with DAOC's RvR.  Since they are all based on basically the same platform of PvP, what problems did you find in GW2's WvW that you hope are not repeated in TESO's AvA?  

I'll outline the few things I saw go wrong with GW2's WvW, let me know what you guys thing was the major flaws.

  • Scoreboard - This is the BIG one for me.  DAOC never had a scoreboard in game, and I feel that AN's insistence on one in their game really detracted from the RvR feel.  Instead of feeling world pride and going out just to have fun, people were obsessed with the scoreboard.  The scoreboard is also what lead to all of the server hopping so that they could be on the "winning" side.  DAOC never had nor needed a scoreboard for their RvR, you just jumped on when you could.  Looked at the map, and saw that your realm was making a push and joined in.  Or that your realm was loosing castles left and right, and jumped in the defense.
  • Culling - a LOT of people left GW2 when this became a real problem.  It has since been fixed, but one you lose people it's hard to get them to come back.
  • Objectives were to close together.  This prevented many mid field pitched battles.  This also prevented smaller groups from having a larger impact on the overall fight.  Objectives being so close together instead lead to zerg vs zerg fights.  Where one force would get pushed back to a keep wall/door, and then would rally and push the other force back to their keep wall/door.  Back & forth over and over.  This just limited the ability to use tactics & movement during fights.  For those of us oldschool DAOC players, you may remember how spread apart objectives were, and how much better the battles were.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/21/13 1:23:43 PM#2
Don't look to TESO to give you a pvp experience as good as daoc.

1 this megaserver thing means no server communities
2 yeah you have campaigns within the mega server, but did you know you can both guest in a "friends" campaign (e.g. join one where you are winning) and can also transfer to another campaign for a loss of alliance ranks (which isn't the same thing as being forced to reroll)
3 with pve you go in any shard on the mega server you like, pve isn't tied to a campaign at all, there's no link between pve and pvp, no need for pveers to thank pvpers for securing relics.
4 there's no alternative ruleset ffa and coop servers, because there's no servers.
5 its entering open beta, every mmo I've beta'd in the last 5 years has had epic whine from the pve crowd, specifically the "used to like wow, but it gives away welfare epics" now crowd. They've already given in to this lot, expect them to give in even more on stuff like raiding giving the best gear, wooly super light faction locks etc.. latter happened with tsw about 2 months before release completely breaking pvp for instance.
  ZedTheRock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 175

5/21/13 4:30:51 PM#3
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Don't look to TESO to give you a pvp experience as good as daoc.

1 this megaserver thing means no server communities
2 yeah you have campaigns within the mega server, but did you know you can both guest in a "friends" campaign (e.g. join one where you are winning) and can also transfer to another campaign for a loss of alliance ranks (which isn't the same thing as being forced to reroll)
3 with pve you go in any shard on the mega server you like, pve isn't tied to a campaign at all, there's no link between pve and pvp, no need for pveers to thank pvpers for securing relics.
4 there's no alternative ruleset ffa and coop servers, because there's no servers.
5 its entering open beta, every mmo I've beta'd in the last 5 years has had epic whine from the pve crowd, specifically the "used to like wow, but it gives away welfare epics" now crowd. They've already given in to this lot, expect them to give in even more on stuff like raiding giving the best gear, wooly super light faction locks etc.. latter happened with tsw about 2 months before release completely breaking pvp for instance.

Disagree with pretty much everything you posted Shaky and agreed with the OP on most points.  Call me super apprehensive about the mega server but something tells me all the negatives it entails will be sorted out, an RvR (AvA) team as prodigious as ZOS's can't be that short sighted to its shortcomings.

 

As for the OP, the biggest detractor for me from GW2's WvW was the 4 map setup and the short destinations between POI's.  This allowed the Zerg to rule.  TESO should in theory limit zerging as much as DAoC did.  You'll never get rid of it completely but having large stretches of trave time between POI's gives greater appeal to small scale matchups.

SUP

  Xsonic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/04
Posts: 94

A mind without purpose will wander in dark places.

5/21/13 4:34:32 PM#4
Haven't heard DAOC in ages. I remember it was my very first MMORPG. Good times.
  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

5/22/13 3:40:08 AM#5
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Don't look to TESO to give you a pvp experience as good as daoc.

1 this megaserver thing means no server communities
2 yeah you have campaigns within the mega server, but did you know you can both guest in a "friends" campaign (e.g. join one where you are winning) and can also transfer to another campaign for a loss of alliance ranks (which isn't the same thing as being forced to reroll)
3 with pve you go in any shard on the mega server you like, pve isn't tied to a campaign at all, there's no link between pve and pvp, no need for pveers to thank pvpers for securing relics.
4 there's no alternative ruleset ffa and coop servers, because there's no servers.
5 its entering open beta, every mmo I've beta'd in the last 5 years has had epic whine from the pve crowd, specifically the "used to like wow, but it gives away welfare epics" now crowd. They've already given in to this lot, expect them to give in even more on stuff like raiding giving the best gear, wooly super light faction locks etc.. latter happened with tsw about 2 months before release completely breaking pvp for instance.

I know you are a big PvP fan and have issues with the PvE crowd.

As someone who likes both equally, and who argued long and hard for freedom to explore - I'd like to address the points you raise.

1 - The megaserver does seem to be a drag on the possibility of communities forming. However, we really don't know enough about how it will work to know how much.

2 - I think it is entirely clear that any method of 'jumping ship' will be widely used. I agree with you here - it is a mistake unless the loss of Alliance Ranks is TOTAL.

3 - I don't think it is inevitable that PvP and PvE will not affect each other, but I see your point - it will be much more difficult to implement in a satisfactory way.

4 - Alternate rulesets are not important if the game works. I don't agree that this is an issue.

5 - Call me old fashioned - I find use of the word 'whine' as far too dismissive. That said - on this last point, the opinions and requirements of the PvE crowd are not damaging or game-breaking as you seem to think. They can sit quite comfortably next to the needs to the PvP crowd - and besides, polarising the debate this way is a gross oversimplification. People are not usual JUST PvP'rs OR PvE'rs - they are mostly a mixture of both. Personally I have not the slightest problem with Crafters or PvP'rs getting epics every bit as good as the Raiders/PvE'rs. All Zenimax need to do is ensure the levels of effort required for each is roughly equal (time and difficulty-wise).

In fact I would like to see epics from different methods being fully mix-and-match so the many people who enjoy more than a single aspect of the game don't feel they need to focus entirely on one mode of gameplay to get them.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3771

5/22/13 12:15:12 PM#6
Originally posted by ragz45
DAOC never had nor needed a scoreboard for their RvR, you just jumped on when you could.  Looked at the map, and saw that your realm was making a push and joined in.  Or that your realm was loosing castles left and right, and jumped in the defense.

Yeah. That's the way I remember it too.

But every time I think about old games and how we played them, I have a hard time separating the times from the games when trying to decide what made them great.

Pre-WOW, MMORPGs were niche. There really weren't many of us who played them and we were all there, more or less, for the same reasons. This was also all happening before "social media" was as pervasive as it is today. A big part of the MMO landscape was socializing with like-minded hobbyist and that made everything better. All MMO communities were better, not just the one we remember from DAoC.

In a way, those early games we played can be compared to our earliest sexual experiences with others: they were sort of awkward but we tend to remember them fondly because it was all so new and exciting. 

Of course, that doesn't stop us from trying to dissect the new ones and old ones, thinking that if we just read the entrails properly we'll find a way to duplicate the fun we used to have. It's human nature to do that.

But I don't think we can duplicate that lost DAoC feeling again. All we can really hope for is something enough like it to enjoy and hold our attention for a while.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/22/13 12:33:13 PM#7
Caliburn

Most people aren't just pvpers or just pveers I agree. Heck that's me too.

But...

I have witnessed in a lot of betas what I would call the "pvextremist" brigade that hate ALL pvp, even pvp they don't have to participate in. Despite being a minority these guys do jump up and down and make a lot noise during betas and unfortunately in some of them, the squekiest wheel for oiled. This happened during tsw closed beta, they whined like hell about playing all 3 sides and being able to do that on the same server. The result, come launch the pvp turned into a bagoshite, it was populated by cross faction "guilds" that just traded facilities with each other to power level their characters and "earn" a starter set for the hardcore dungeons. Real pvpers got shouted at on chat for the "crime" of actually trying to pvp in the designated pvp content as it messed up their pve token farming.

Of course there Is also their polar opposite, the "I want to gank level 1 noobs for the lolz" crew. But thankfully mmo devs don't listen to them.

The first group though, they have their tactics sorted, they know the ways to break pvp and eventually drive away all the pvpers a couple if months after launch with some very clever passive aggressive techniques and using emotive words like "freedom" and "locks".

You betcha ass these guys want to break pvp in TESO, so the devs can concentrate on pumping out endgame gear treadmill content.
  eiekal

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 20

5/22/13 2:53:15 PM#8

"You betcha ass these guys want to break pvp in TESO, so the devs can concentrate on pumping out endgame gear treadmill content."

 

That is what I fear.  As we know from experiance in mmo's, the squeaky wheel gets the grease so it's good that pvpers make sure they put their two cents in.

 

As for the op asking what would you change in gw2 WvW, I can't say how I'd change WvW specifically but I can say that slowing the strafe speed was a deal breaker for me. I hate HATED it.  I hope that Elder Scrolls Online never gets a notion to do that.

 

  alterfenix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 335

5/22/13 4:22:32 PM#9
Originally posted by ShakyMo


You betcha ass these guys want to break pvp in TESO, so the devs can concentrate on pumping out endgame gear treadmill content.

This is what I am afraid of too. TESO looks promising so far perhaps with a few glitches but that's it. However if they do start to listen to common pve crowd (aka "I've got ganked on pvp server!!!! FIX THE GAME!!!!!") like some other companies did in the past this is gonna be an easy fail. They have a really big opportunity to make something different, I just hope that they don't waste it.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

5/24/13 3:41:08 AM#10
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Caliburn

Most people aren't just pvpers or just pveers I agree. Heck that's me too.

But...

I have witnessed in a lot of betas what I would call the "pvextremist" brigade that hate ALL pvp, even pvp they don't have to participate in. Despite being a minority these guys do jump up and down and make a lot noise during betas and unfortunately in some of them, the squekiest wheel for oiled. This happened during tsw closed beta, they whined like hell about playing all 3 sides and being able to do that on the same server. The result, come launch the pvp turned into a bagoshite, it was populated by cross faction "guilds" that just traded facilities with each other to power level their characters and "earn" a starter set for the hardcore dungeons. Real pvpers got shouted at on chat for the "crime" of actually trying to pvp in the designated pvp content as it messed up their pve token farming.

Of course there Is also their polar opposite, the "I want to gank level 1 noobs for the lolz" crew. But thankfully mmo devs don't listen to them.

The first group though, they have their tactics sorted, they know the ways to break pvp and eventually drive away all the pvpers a couple if months after launch with some very clever passive aggressive techniques and using emotive words like "freedom" and "locks".

You betcha ass these guys want to break pvp in TESO, so the devs can concentrate on pumping out endgame gear treadmill content.

Well, as I freely admit - I was a loud and direct proponent of the freedom to explore. I never however advocated significant change in the PvP setup, and to my great surprise, Zenimax came up with the system to allow me to see the whole world on one toon which kept the Cyrodil conflict center stage.

I have to say I have no sympathy with those wishing to sabotage the 'enemy' camp with the kind of crapola you mention. It not only leads on occasion to questionable decisions by developers, but it poisons the debate per se. Once the loud and myopic brigade start shouting, those defending the status quo feel they have to respond in kind.

Those of us trying to keep the debate confined to the core issues get tarred and feathered as it is 'assumed' because we might be on one side of the debate or the other, we are 'the same' as the flaming trolls and haters etc...

... the number of times I got called a 'hater' for wanting one change to the game which didn't require anyone else's fun was interfered with. Ridiculous!

It gets tiring having to challenge such poorly thought out accusations time and time again, and drives useful and constructive people off the forums leaving the devs with nothing to listen to the howling monkeys and not the silent majority.

Anyway...

There is no inherent reason an endgame treadmill has to be a deathknell to mass PvP. Just ensure the raiding:crafting:PvP gear progression ratio stays in parity and everyone can have what they want. It is lazy and unimaginative thinking by devs of games who get this wrong, and I hope that Zenimax have the common sense to see it and act accordingly.

Whilst they made some very odd decisions initially, they do show clear signs of being able to adapt intelligently without throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

I would very much like to see this game succeed - so I can finally enjoy a damn game without serious compromises.

Fingers crossed eh!?

 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5197

5/24/13 4:09:55 AM#11
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Don't look to TESO to give you a pvp experience as good as daoc.

1 this megaserver thing means no server communities
2 yeah you have campaigns within the mega server, but did you know you can both guest in a "friends" campaign (e.g. join one where you are winning) and can also transfer to another campaign for a loss of alliance ranks (which isn't the same thing as being forced to reroll)
3 with pve you go in any shard on the mega server you like, pve isn't tied to a campaign at all, there's no link between pve and pvp, no need for pveers to thank pvpers for securing relics.
4 there's no alternative ruleset ffa and coop servers, because there's no servers.
5 its entering open beta, every mmo I've beta'd in the last 5 years has had epic whine from the pve crowd, specifically the "used to like wow, but it gives away welfare epics" now crowd. They've already given in to this lot, expect them to give in even more on stuff like raiding giving the best gear, wooly super light faction locks etc.. latter happened with tsw about 2 months before release completely breaking pvp for instance.

I know you are a big PvP fan and have issues with the PvE crowd.

As someone who likes both equally, and who argued long and hard for freedom to explore - I'd like to address the points you raise.

1 - The megaserver does seem to be a drag on the possibility of communities forming. However, we really don't know enough about how it will work to know how much.

2 - I think it is entirely clear that any method of 'jumping ship' will be widely used. I agree with you here - it is a mistake unless the loss of Alliance Ranks is TOTAL.

3 - I don't think it is inevitable that PvP and PvE will not affect each other, but I see your point - it will be much more difficult to implement in a satisfactory way.

4 - Alternate rulesets are not important if the game works. I don't agree that this is an issue.

5 - Call me old fashioned - I find use of the word 'whine' as far too dismissive. That said - on this last point, the opinions and requirements of the PvE crowd are not damaging or game-breaking as you seem to think. They can sit quite comfortably next to the needs to the PvP crowd - and besides, polarising the debate this way is a gross oversimplification. People are not usual JUST PvP'rs OR PvE'rs - they are mostly a mixture of both. Personally I have not the slightest problem with Crafters or PvP'rs getting epics every bit as good as the Raiders/PvE'rs. All Zenimax need to do is ensure the levels of effort required for each is roughly equal (time and difficulty-wise).

In fact I would like to see epics from different methods being fully mix-and-match so the many people who enjoy more than a single aspect of the game don't feel they need to focus entirely on one mode of gameplay to get them.

1. if you join a guild, then when you log in, you are afaik, put on the same 'pve server' of the moment, you will still be on different pvp servers (campaigns) though, unless you actively switch, for people who arent in a guild, they are dropped into whichever pve server has open spots, which makes for a very 'fluid' gaming community, chances are you won't see many of the same people very often.

2. guilds will probably switch to campaigns (pvp servers) that they can be on together, that is, if the guild is pvp orientated. there will probably be a certain amount of 'switching' going on if people end up losing too many battles, they'll probably try another server to change their luck.

3. pvp and pve are totally seperate, as there is no link between pvp servers and pve servers, gains made in one will not affect the others in any respect. barring personal gains that is.

4. alternate rule sets are not possible as the only servers that are 'static' as such are the campaign 'pvp servers'

5. subjective tbh, i don't find the whining of the pve crowd any less deafening as that coming from the pvp ones