Trending Games | Warframe | TERA | World of Warcraft | Path of Exile

    Facebook Twitter YouTube
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:3,026,567 Users Online:0
Games:843  Posts:6,482,373
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online AD2460 ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord 2 Archlord X Armored Warfare Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Bionic Marine Command Online Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blackguards 2 Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodborne Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chroma Squad Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crowfall Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Heart Online Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dying Light Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthlock: Festival of Magic Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Fable Legends Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
GRAV GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods Rush Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Hand of Fate Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Immune Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online Kill Strain King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lords of the Fallen 2 Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Hunter 4: Ultimate Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Necropolis Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Nova Genesis Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Chronicles Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Coast Legends Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Banner Saga 2 The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Trapped Dead: Lockdown Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utherous Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles 3D Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] General: The Beta Is a Lie

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search
136 posts found

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2370

5/16/13 10:54:54 AM#41
Article would hit its mark a bit better if you'd take another gander at that last line, Bill :)

I'm glad someone touched on this topic, it's been a problem for a while. Betas haven't been what they're supposed to be for years, they're just means of advertising, and ways to release games as buggy, exploitable messes (Neverwinter) while still under the protective veil of the word "Beta". You see how many people rise to protect a game, say "it's a beta, it's going to have bugs," and companies have gotten smart enough to use their fans. Hopefully their fans will wisen up and stop allowing themselves to be used.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."


Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 1137

5/16/13 11:04:05 AM#42

Good read and I agree. I think my defining line between beta and launch is the combination of two things: separate beta server and the wipe line. Without a separate beta server, no wipes means it's a launch.


Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 8079

Logic be damned!

5/16/13 11:06:33 AM#43

I think the utter failure at launch of games like SimCity and Diablo 3 has scared developers into not wanting to call something an "official launch" so that they are incapable of having a "bad launch."

They can always blame problems on that fact it's "open beta" or a "soft launch" to try and avoid some bad press, and call it "official launch" once the problems have been sorted out.

Too bad the average gamer is smart enough (not something I say often) to see what they are really doing.


I've probably been lurking for way, way too long.


The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 5568

5/16/13 11:28:50 AM#44

So I say "are those real?" And she says "I'm not telling." So I say "Well, real or not, they are very nice." And she says "Thank you!"



Seems like Bill and the media in general are more affected by this pseudo-beta than any reasonably intelligent gamer who knows for a fact that it's a launch. They're not quite sure when the correct time is to stop "previewing" it and start "reviewing" it. Mind you, I often find it hard to tell the difference between an opinionated preview and a "real" review. Hey! Do you think that maybe they're doing it deliberately so that people will see it for themselves without having been pre-conditioned by reviewers and Metacritic one way or the other?

IDK but I'm playing it and haven't spent a dime. Got a couple of level 30 characters and sorry Bill, I don't think a spider would make me enjoy it a lot more than using my slow-ass 5G Palomino nor am I having storage issues and the purple chest key gambling mini-game doesn't interest me.'s an "open beta." Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean?


Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1143

5/16/13 11:33:06 AM#45
well I say you are kinda 5 years later, nothing new they use "open betas", to make players get adicted tot he game and start milking then soon, some at least would wait till a certain date to push the CS out, not anymore. but the poroblem is as long players feel its a ok behavior they will not stop doing that and things will go worse

FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.


Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 3111

5/16/13 11:37:06 AM#46
I totally agree with this article and the timing of the review. It should be done when a company gets greedy like asking for money for open beta. The only thing I disagree with is that this is a good game. I found it a step backwards from the latest releases (GW2, SWTOR, etc) and completely boring from a PVE perspective.

There Is Always Hope!


Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/07
Posts: 256

5/16/13 11:40:09 AM#47
Just call it "soft review" then and you're all set.

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 755

5/16/13 11:45:21 AM#48
Paying for beta access was common even among games that were to launch as a subscription game. I don't know how prevalent that is now, but the last game I saw that with was Aion. I don't think you should have to pre-buy a game to get closed or open beta access. Especially open beta, where this is the phase in the game's development where things are as they will probably be in retail, and this is where consumers should be able to honestly decide whether or not they will want to play this game or not.

While this is probably a terrible example, FFXIV: ARR will have an open beta that is free for all to try. Alpha and Closed Beta has been a mix of people who played the original game and people who signed up via their beta website or received a beta key via an event such as PAX East. I say this isn't the best example since SE needs to do everything possible to put their company and this game in a better light.

I know I've gone a bit off topic, but this was talking about MMOs in general nearly as much as Neverwinter, but I hope you guys do something similar with your "open beta journal" for FFXIV: ARR. I'm not sure if reviewers from MMORPG got into the game or not, but I don't really see any impressions from their current beta phases here. The upcoming beta phase in early June will have the game see a lot of changes, so I hope it can get some exposure then.


Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/11
Posts: 22

5/16/13 11:47:37 AM#49
If you see "open beta", dont spend your money. I can't rationalize spending money and getting exactly what you paid for as a problem, regardless of the games phase.

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/01/10
Posts: 134

5/16/13 11:49:45 AM#50
Amen to that. This is kind of things are common now. It is not an RPG but DOTA 2 is still in "beta" :D.
All new games are trying to hook you on their Foundry packs or VIP access to beta by paying big money like every AAA rated game is worth.
Don`t know how the law goes with taxes and such if you present your game as in "test phase" but I guess there is also a big exploit that tax agents could look in to it.
I mean, if the game is in BETA phase then you should give us all the things in the shop for free so we can try it out, who knows maybe the $40 mount is bugged and maybe he needs polishing and maybe we should try different builds for classes for free so we can try and maybe see the problems that could be fixed when game is released.
Personally, I play Neverwinter and right now as lev 33 i see the choices i made are not good enough in my build and now I have to pay money to respec my toon in the open beta status??!!! Seriously ??

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/03
Posts: 133

I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it doesn't even matter.

5/16/13 11:50:13 AM#51
The last two paragraphs of this article are the takeaway.

Originally posted by SBFord
For review purposes, a few of us at were given Hero of the North founder’s packs. That’s $200 worth of Astral Diamonds, an epic spider mount, and a bunch of other perks that we didn’t have to pay for.  Without them, the game would be far less enjoyable as Suzie’s article states.

People really need to stop defending this game (thankfully they're in the minority).  PWE ruined an otherwise good game.  I won't get into it here though, I've done it enough on the official forums.


Edit: Christ it's beyond hard to add formatting to these posts.  BBcode doesn't seem to work, yet it's shown in the standard editor.

DAOWAce Xfire Miniprofile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2383

5/16/13 12:01:22 PM#52
So Bill not to sound like I'm defending Neverwinter or F2P too much but since you did single both out, how is this any different from what Aventurine did with DarkFall Unholy wars?
Didn't they charge for the game, as well as a monthly subscription for a game that was in beta for 5 months? theirs was not a totally optional cash shop but a "You WILL buy the game, and you WILL pay a subscription if you want to play our beta, and no we WILL NOT give refunds." kinda stance.
Indie/subscription favoratism, or simple oversight?

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 236

5/16/13 12:04:21 PM#53
I agree with this article. It has actually been bugging me for a while. It doesn't affect me directly whatever they want to call their current launch state. It's just that, in my eyes, the term "beta" should be reserved for testing not profit making. Maybe I just have outdated thinking.

Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

5/16/13 12:05:40 PM#54
the Beta is a lie in other ways, i believe (note that word: Believe). related to the monetary purchases to make this game fun. and here's what i think: if anyone seriously thinks that the drop rate on Identify Scrolls and such will not go noticeably go down after OB, then i believe they are mistaken.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse


Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/09
Posts: 299

5/16/13 12:12:07 PM#55
Originally posted by pmiles
Originally posted by PulsarMan
Originally posted by pmiles

Using kickstarter to get players to fund actual development of a game is far more disturbing than having some developer call their launch a beta.  We've gone from just buying a game when it's done (box/retail shelf), to prepaying for beta access, to now, actually funding the development of the game.  The only one's paying out of the ass are the players.  What's next, putting in a bid to developers to see if they feel your request for a new title is even worth their time and effort?


I'd like to see the days of old where you know, game developers were on the down low about what they were working on and you only actually got to see it when it was released.  No more of this pre-pre-pre-super-duper-awesome-first-look-pass purchasing scams.  When you have a product, release it, we'll buy it.  If it is decent, you'll earn return to cover your investment.


People talk about there being no consequences to death in games... what consequences do developers risk if you already paid for it's development.  Even if it's total crap, they lose nothing.  If it's mediocre, it's total profit.  How does this model encourage them to do better?  It doesn't.  Only if their is risk of loss is their motivation to succeed.

I see the points you're making. But you're only focusing on the negative side of things. 

Programs such as Kickstarter are allowing games that would never be developed in the old Dev / Publisher setting, to see the light of day. Along with that we must remember that no one is forcing anyone to donate to a kickstarter, or purchase an "Early Access", or Foundry pack...or whatever they choose to call it. 

If you pay $100 for an early access pack, and are handed a turd...yeah, you got screwed. But to assume the developer has nothing to lose is a bit near sighted. How many of us are going to purchase the next big title from The WarZ developers? Not I. 

Again, your points are valid. But we have to remember that the development atmosphere of today is rather different than it once was. Games cost a great deal more to produce. The risk is much higher. Were I a development studio, I would very readily support the numerous methods in which I can buffer that risk. If I had my customer crap, it would be a safe assumption to assume that my next project would not be so easily funded. If funded at all. 

Used to cost 15 cents for a cup of coffee... now they charge you $1 or more... that's cost of living adjustment and marketing.  We pay more for games for the same reason.  Average computer game costs $60 retail compared to say $25 in the 80s.  They are being compensated for those costs.  That can be recouped in box costs and it is.  We're paying beyond box costs.


If a game won't see light of day without us funding it... meaning the boys with the deep pockets don't see a profit in it to justify producing it... then perhaps the rule of survival of the fittest is in play.  If it really was worthy... wouldn't they see the need to invest in it?  If it's a case of wanting to be their own boss... well there are plenty of examples where people developed their own game on their own dime and time... takes freaking forever and a lot of dedication but it can be done.  People offer their services for free to get the work done.  Game gets made.  Wasn't about funding peoples paychecks but about making something they wanted to make.  Kickstarter is in-between the two... they still want to get paid and make a profit first... game is just a means to get there.

It's not the same as a cup of coffee. It is terribly common to spend years on game development only to have a promising project dropped, or not break even when it ships. You're not going to miss breaking even on a cup of coffee. Leaps in tech, and the standards of visual fidelity have driven up the costs of gave development far beyond inflation and a raise in the price point. Costs are incredibly high. Most titles need to break into the millions to make any profit at all. Which is a tall order when you're not talking about something already well known. That risk is why we get such cookie cutter titles. Why make something new when we can safely sell the same thing over and over again?

Big publishers make safe investments into popular franchises and genres. Military FPS, facebook games, IOS games, and sequels upon sequels. Adventures games are not mainstream. Nor is something akin to an old school Baldur's Gate, Fallout, or even something like Wing Commander. But there are people who would love make those well as customers who would love to purchase and play them. A kickstarter allows a developer to judge interest, and fund the development as opposed to going to a publisher and having demands placed upon your game so that it may "appeal to a wider audience." Or be rejected altogether. Just because a publisher does not feel that a game can become a multi-billion dollar franchise does not mean that title should not be developed at all. 

As far as working for free - Go ahead. But most of us need to get paid. 


Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

5/16/13 12:13:22 PM#56
as for Kickstarter comparisons, while the material actions of the parties involved may be similar or even exactly alike, the intent is different. and intent does matter.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse


Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2383

5/16/13 12:16:13 PM#57
Originally posted by olepi
Originally posted by tawess
Originally posted by olepi
Originally posted by tawess
Originally posted by Dogblaster
well written .. open beta is just an excuse for bugs and flaws the game has.

But as i said.. At least they are open with it and not trying to hide it (as was the way before... I look at you Champion Online, with friends ofc)


What are they "hiding" Olepi... It is in bold letter... BETA... as in not done yet... invest at your own risk.

Do you have to buy the car before taking a test drive? Why won't they let you drive it first, and then decide to pay?

Why charge for something that isn't finished? Do you pay for a meal that isn't fully cooked?

Taking NW as an example: they have clearly released the game for the masses to play, and they are charging to play it. But they still want to call it beta, why? I think it is because they know the game isn't done, and has a lot of bugs, and they wouldn't be able to release it as is unless they could keep changing it. So they want the full benefit of release and charges, but also want the benefit of "hiding" the unfinished parts and the bugs behind the term "beta".

Car... car..? No company let you drive the car before it is done due to automotive safety.


As for the foods example it is more like being able to have early access to meals while the chef perfects the dish.. you will not have as good of a meal as the finished product but you will be able to eat it before the regular customer.

But you did not answer my question (just rested your opinion)  would not releasing the game with the bugs be "hiding" it and you might be tricked to pay for a incomplete product. With the beta tag you know the game is not done and you can invest accordingly.



And therein lies the devolution of MMO's; companies now think it is quite alright to release, yes release, and charge for games that are incomplete and buggy. And they do this on purpose, by using the label "beta". Do you think there will be a massive new release of NW for the "official" release date? That when they actually release the real product, that it will be dramatically better and different than the beta?

Or is calling it "beta" just an excuse to release early, with all the bugs and unfinished content, and charge for it?


  Every MMO every released has been incomplete and buggy. None, not EQ, Not WoW, Not Rift etc were complete or bug free.. Sure Developers may try and soften launch nowadays with the words "Open beta", but the real truth is they have not gotten away with anything they haven't always done. Don't let the rose color glasses mislead you. Some games at launch were epic crap (AO being a good example) yet they still went on to do ok. Hell WoW its first month or 2 was down almost more then it was up. In all cases they charged and player paid for "Incomplete and buggy games"


Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2672

5/16/13 12:28:33 PM#58

Nicely written, and I agree, nowadays open beta is like the Cake, just with less topping :)

PWE did the same with RaiderZ, after the (almost fully functional) closed beta they launched an open one without any beta key requirement (soft launch). And the real launch was so silent, that weeks after the game went live people still kept asking when will it launch, will there be wipes, etc...  If I'm not mistaken the launch was simply an entry on the main page, stating "We go live today." Between two sales promotion articles :)


I think BadSpock's right, companies (an even more their pr departments) are terrified to announce launches as an official launch, and they're only hiding behind the "open beta" sign in case the game turns out buggy as hell. And if the open beta is smooth, they can still announce the Go Live state later... it's some kind of a failsafe to them.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 531

5/16/13 12:29:29 PM#59
Yep this is pretty much crap as far as I'm concerned. If you let people purchase your game or items from your cash shop, it's not a beta anymore. That is a very simple and obvious part of the definition of a release, e.g. getting customer revenue.

nethervoid - Est. '97
13k subs YouTube Gaming channel


Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 531

5/16/13 12:30:34 PM#60
Furthermore it's sad that games are being released in some pretty crappy and still shifting states while taking every dollar any customer will give them. War Thunder for example is doing this as well, but making pretty sweeping changes to their economy under the guise of 'beta'. lol

nethervoid - Est. '97
13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search