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Neverwinter

Neverwinter 

General Discussion  » The problem with MMO's like Neverwinter...

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60 posts found
  Banquetto

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1027

5/11/13 9:40:36 PM#41


Originally posted by Yamota
You ever heard of time?

If you committed time to a game which turned out to be garbage then you have every right to complain.


If you enjoyed it for a while and then it "turned out" to be garbage, and you stopped playing, what have you lost? You enjoyed it while you were spending that time playing it!


If you never enjoyed it but played anyway, well, then I guess you can complain. But I doubt you'll get much sympathy, given that you freely chose to waste your time doing something you weren't enjoying.

  flizzer

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1212

5/11/13 9:47:43 PM#42
Originally posted by Draemos
Originally posted by SoulStain
I hate end-game in mmos..the raids and pvp that is expected to keep us entertained forever. An mmo's endgame for me is usually going to play different mmo.

It's funny, because I hate leveling in an MMO.  To me that would be time better spent on a single player game with a significantly better storyline and gameplay.  I can't even fathom why anyone would play an MMO if not for endgame, and especially purely to level.  To each their own I guess.

Im the type that is always rolling their eyes when I hear people talking excitedly about "almost reaching cap"  and figuring out the fastest way to max a character.  I consider the journey the best part of the game. I know in LOTRO many players were complaining about how fast you gtained xp and wanted a way to turn it off. A friend told me they added in the ability to turn off xp gain or maybe it is slow it down actually. Of course, this is being sold in the store, lol.   Anyway,  it goes to show all types of people play MMOs and for different reasons.  It is all good. 

  Deznts

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/05
Posts: 167

5/11/13 9:54:48 PM#43
Originally posted by flizzer
Originally posted by Draemos
Originally posted by SoulStain
I hate end-game in mmos..the raids and pvp that is expected to keep us entertained forever. An mmo's endgame for me is usually going to play different mmo.

It's funny, because I hate leveling in an MMO.  To me that would be time better spent on a single player game with a significantly better storyline and gameplay.  I can't even fathom why anyone would play an MMO if not for endgame, and especially purely to level.  To each their own I guess.

Im the type that is always rolling their eyes when I hear people talking excitedly about "almost reaching cap"  and figuring out the fastest way to max a character.  I consider the journey the best part of the game. I know in LOTRO many players were complaining about how fast you gtained xp and wanted a way to turn it off. A friend told me they added in the ability to turn off xp gain or maybe it is slow it down actually. Of course, this is being sold in the store, lol.   Anyway,  it goes to show all types of people play MMOs and for different reasons.  It is all good. 

I believe that it is game specific. Although Age of Conan has an enjoyable leveling experience, the lasting content with a good difficulty challenge is found at level cap. With alternate advancement starting at level cap and a great deal of gear progression, there is plenty of room or further character progression. AoC is definitely an example of great end game, even if you are a solo-centric player

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1221

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/11/13 9:54:57 PM#44

 

Hoping Modules will bring about a continuous storyline along with new classes.

Back in FFXIV 1.0 (when they switched teams and fixed most issues) they added entire storylines that actually continued game play and lore as opposed to just putting in a new raid every six months, with bosses that back lore that relates to the expansion.

That's what I call a never ending MMO, the fact you had to work at it and team up with people to get it done was a bonus.  Thankfully they intend to release new classes and add to the the storylines they create (or create new ones) that last until the next expansion, when new lands and new storylines will start anew.  It's especially neat that there were so many well made cutscenes to go along with the storyline.

 

If Neverwinter can pull something like this off, I'd be really impressed.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  danwest58

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 557

5/11/13 10:10:03 PM#45

This is another reason I am having a hard time considering Neverwinter is a game I want spend anytime in.  (I personally have a hard time with the F2P cash shop setup)  I use the be a raider, I have raided once in SWTOR and that is the last time I have raided in any game in over a year.  For years I been a progressive raider who always got back on the gear treadmill.  However not this time.  Why you may ask would someone who has been raiding for years since 2005 would you stop and be against it in a New MMO.  I would say that I no longer find it fun an enjoyable because of the time and effort that is required to raid.  Since WOTLK Every game has trying to copy WoW's gear grinding raiding formula and I played multiple games other than WoW as well as raided in them games.   

Truthfully raiding can be fun when it does not become about gear scores, needing to do X amount of instances a week to cap your badges out so you can gear faster, now run LFR as much as you can too.  Raiding use to be about effort however in Vanilla and BC you could cobble together a set of gear and raid.  So what if in Kara you were on the first 4 bosses for 3 or 4 weeks no problem people needed that gear no need to run 5 or 10, or 20 instances a week to gear up as fast as you can.  The encounters during Vanilla and BC were not mechanic until or unless you got to Naxx or Sunwell.  People who wanted to raid 2 or 3 days a week with friends could do it in these days and they would down bosses if worked on hard enough.  

But accessibility changed all that.  Blizzard wanted to get everyone into end game content so thats why that make it easier in WOTLK had 10 man and 25 mans drop different loot.  So what did people do raid the same instances 4 times or more a week.  Just to keep up.  You can say well you didnt have to do it.  Well Your right its freedom of choice, however if you want to keep cramming expansions down peoples throats every 2 years and what to change the raid formula to what WoW did you will have high burn out.  

Needless to say I am burnt out on raiding.  My friends that I have played with for 5 or more years are all burnt out and only but a handful play any sort of MMO now a days.  And even of that group no more than 3 or 4 hours a week because well every MMO is just like WoW, they try to copy that formula.  Well guess what people are tired of it, and honestly Neverwinter could be different if it just sticks to 5 man content.  Yes instances, let players create the content and yes the devs should do.  Go a head and create a carrot.  However keep the content on the lite side, yes EASY.  Why?  Because if one cannot understand that the MMO market is moving away from old large raid content (Which wildstar seems to think the market is not because they are wearing their pink tinted glasses.) they are foolish and should just shut down.  

It should be very obvious that times are changing its time to go into a different direction.  That does not mean that Raiding should be completely left behind.  Raiding and End Game formula should be innovated to include other forms of end game material that will allow players that dont want to raid to still get the same end game gear.  That does not mean remove the challenge.  One can take a Sandbox Element like Treasure Hunting from UO change it to fit a new MMO and drop Epic gear out of a map.  It should still require multiple players to do this because MMOs are a Multiplayer game, so maybe 3 or 4 friends could do a high level treasure map because the mobs that spawn will kill 1 or 2 people.  Go ahead and create scalable raids so if Harcore Guild B wants to do it with 20 people they can, that raid should be also scaled to a 5 man party level.  All Player created content and Dev created content can be set to a Tier level of gear, scale in toughness and drop gear.

Its time to move away from the same formula for end game that is fading no matter what a few people say.  The truth is, it is fading however it does not have to be totally gone.  Innovate so people have a choice how they want to spend their end game.  I can also tell you that in SWTOR there have been more people that has tried raiding in 8 man content vs other MMOs because the tighter nit groups.  So work on that, the few people that want their large raids can have them however if they want them real tough let them develop a tough large raid for the foundry.  Why force developers to do it?  

 

  MMOPapa

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 121

There's a reason you can't spell Deadline without the word 'dead'.

5/11/13 10:35:45 PM#46
Originally posted by xKopogerox

I got the feeling if I commit I'll end up stuck at endgame with nothing to do due to lack of content. On top the way it's headed with big raids and 5v5 I'll be depending on a community, which will limit me when and how much I can enjoy it.

It's been proven in the past that themepark designed MMORPG's without big revenue cannot maintain a steady content and endgame features.

...in an MMORPG based on a game where playing alone was deemed taboo because you'd look schizophrenic by being the Dungeon Master and the Character at the same time? Yeah I'd say depending on the community is pretty normal.

  kjempff

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 695

Make worlds not stories

5/12/13 12:18:45 AM#47

Neverwinter is a great little game, its fun to play and has its charm. But it has some fundamental problems when it comes to long term commitment; it is just too shallow. DnD just aren't meant to be used as a mmorpg where you build characters for years, and since they are so relatively close to DnD rules, I can't see how that would change.

Eq survived on "neverending" xp (aa levels), raids, variety and complex combat mechanics + a stream of expansions.

WoW survived on everchanging mechanics, raids for everyone, and not too bad pvp, variety in builds and pure slickness + a stream of expansions.

Neverwinter has pretty simple combat mechanics, simple builds that are limited by DnD rules, lacking real roles. It has Foundry and ease of introducing adventures easily, but as I see it, DnD just doesn't allow enough room to change the character building part to allow long term commitment. DnD is simply stuck in the PnP mindset, which it is great for, but as a mmorpg, not so much in my opinion.

 

I could see Neverwinter benefit greatly from a live Game Master mode, where people could group up and run Foundry missions with a live GM with various controls. Get your friends on and have them roll characters and have fun roleplaying for awhile and then discard the characters again, just like PnP... and with the freedom of traditional PnP with a GM. Well shrug I don't know, but I just don't see Neverwinter making it as a mmorpg, so it should take advantage of what it can be.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2986

I actually still like MMORPGs

5/12/13 10:03:11 AM#48
The problem with endgame is this idea that the game doesn't really start until you're max lvl. Can you imagine if any other game was like that? Oh skyrim was fun but the end game doesn't start until you Max every skill and cap the lvls.

The whole game should be part of the experience and the journey not just what happens at max lvl.

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2571

5/12/13 10:54:27 AM#49

That they weren't designed as MMOs and just had half assed multiplayed tacked on last minute to charge more?

 

And to think, some people try to argue otherwise when this quote exists...

 

"Cryptic Studios chief operating officer Jack Emmert explained, "It's not an MMO in the sense that there aren't zones with hundreds-and-hundreds of people. You are not fighting for spawns. There's a very strong storyline throughout the game. So it's more of a story-based game closer to things like Dragon Age or Oblivion,"

 

Just like the people that try to say GW1 is an MMO when even the devs say it isn't.

  MadDemon64

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1080

Why is it that fantasy trolls are vulnerable to fire, but internet trolls thrive on flame wars?

5/12/13 11:23:02 AM#50
Originally posted by lizardbones

The problem with MMOs like Neverwinter is that Neverwinter wasn't an MMO until Perfect World took over. Cryptic did not design or advertise the game as an MMO.

You are half right.  Neverwinter wasn't originally an MMORPG, but an MMODC(Massively Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawler), similar to Phantasy Star Online 2, Vindictus (I think), and Rusty Hearts .  It was still an MMO, but one without a "persitant world".

Even though this would have been closer to how D&D normally is, I cant help but wonder if it would have been better or worse than the curren iteration.

Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2571

5/12/13 11:25:01 AM#51
Originally posted by MadDemon64
Originally posted by lizardbones

The problem with MMOs like Neverwinter is that Neverwinter wasn't an MMO until Perfect World took over. Cryptic did not design or advertise the game as an MMO.

You are half right.  Neverwinter wasn't originally an MMORPG, but an MMODC(Massively Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawler), similar to Phantasy Star Online 2, Vindictus (I think), and Rusty Hearts .  It was still an MMO, but one without a "persitant world".

Even though this would have been closer to how D&D normally is, I cant help but wonder if it would have been better or worse than the curren iteration.

There is no such thing as a MMODC. There's nothing massively multiplayer about going into dungeons with 4 people.

That genre exists. It's the same genre Diablo is in. The original Neverwinter games were this way.

And the persistant world is one of the things that MAKES an MMO.

  Deznts

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/05
Posts: 167

5/12/13 11:38:54 AM#52
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by MadDemon64
Originally posted by lizardbones

The problem with MMOs like Neverwinter is that Neverwinter wasn't an MMO until Perfect World took over. Cryptic did not design or advertise the game as an MMO.

You are half right.  Neverwinter wasn't originally an MMORPG, but an MMODC(Massively Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawler), similar to Phantasy Star Online 2, Vindictus (I think), and Rusty Hearts .  It was still an MMO, but one without a "persitant world".

Even though this would have been closer to how D&D normally is, I cant help but wonder if it would have been better or worse than the curren iteration.

There is no such thing as a MMODC. There's nothing massively multiplayer about going into dungeons with 4 people.

That genre exists. It's the same genre Diablo is in. The original Neverwinter games were this way.

And the persistant world is one of the things that MAKES an MMO.

^What he said is spot on. People need to learn the definition of massively multiplayer. Also the difference between massively and massive is fundamental. Too many people don't understand the significance of the suffix -ly

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2986

I actually still like MMORPGs

5/12/13 12:43:05 PM#53
Nothing in MMORPG says persistent.

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2571

5/12/13 12:46:33 PM#54
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Nothing in MMORPG says persistent.

And yet a hosted persistent server was pretty much the defining aspect of the MMORPGs that defined the genre. What makes Meridian 59 different from Doom? The fact that the world stays there even when you aren't, and that more than 10 people can join it. That isn't true with instancing.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2986

I actually still like MMORPGs

5/13/13 12:32:36 PM#55
It is true with Neverwinter though :)

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3734

RIP City of Heroes!

5/13/13 12:43:19 PM#56
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Nothing in MMORPG says persistent.

And yet a hosted persistent server was pretty much the defining aspect of the MMORPGs that defined the genre. What makes Meridian 59 different from Doom? The fact that the world stays there even when you aren't, and that more than 10 people can join it. That isn't true with instancing.

 The other side of it is how is M59 different from graphical muds?  You had persistence in GMs.  What you didn't have in GMs was the number of connections to the server (hence the massive in mmorpg) and or better graphics.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2986

I actually still like MMORPGs

5/13/13 3:56:34 PM#57
M59 was/is such a unique beast of a game though. The community is so small everyone always knew everyone. Was always the best part of that game. If it wasnt for a lack of content I'd still consider it the best MMO around.

  AG-Vuk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 818

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Oh, I see it's too late to help you.

5/13/13 4:26:13 PM#58
Originally posted by xKopogerox

I got the feeling if I commit I'll end up stuck at endgame with nothing to do due to lack of content. On top the way it's headed with big raids and 5v5 I'll be depending on a community, which will limit me when and how much I can enjoy it.

It's been proven in the past that themepark designed MMORPG's without big revenue cannot maintain a steady content and endgame features.

foundry , does help . It'll only take you so far. Cryptic is really bad dev as far as raids go. The max number you'll ever raid with is 5 . You will see 20 person zones , but that's not a raid. See any of their other games . PvP is a non starter as far as Cryptic goes. Your only hope is the Foundry and the people making the content , because Cryptic's contribution from this point forward will be minimal and intermittent. It's just how they roll.

  MadDemon64

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1080

Why is it that fantasy trolls are vulnerable to fire, but internet trolls thrive on flame wars?

5/13/13 5:37:36 PM#59
Originally posted by AG-Vuk
Originally posted by xKopogerox

I got the feeling if I commit I'll end up stuck at endgame with nothing to do due to lack of content. On top the way it's headed with big raids and 5v5 I'll be depending on a community, which will limit me when and how much I can enjoy it.

It's been proven in the past that themepark designed MMORPG's without big revenue cannot maintain a steady content and endgame features.

foundry , does help . It'll only take you so far. Cryptic is really bad dev as far as raids go. The max number you'll ever raid with is 5 . You will see 20 person zones , but that's not a raid. See any of their other games . PvP is a non starter as far as Cryptic goes. Your only hope is the Foundry and the people making the content , because Cryptic's contribution from this point forward will be minimal and intermittent. It's just how they roll.

Here's a little problem with that.

This is a Dungeons and Dragons game, which will obviously attract Dungeons and Dragons players, and one thing Dungeons and Dragons players are not used to/have never had in a Dungeons and Dragons game is an adventure with 50 people playing.  Of course Cryptic could include them, but that has a good chance of alienating the target demographic, namely D&D players.  

So is it really just laziness that they might not include huge raids?  Of course not: it is a choice made by Cryptic to make the game closer to a game of D&D than most other MMOS.

In DDO, how large were the raids?  12.  Raids were 12 man dungeons in DDO.  Again, not due to laziness, but due to a deliberate choice by the devs to attract the D&D players, to reassure them that they aren't just slapping on the D&D name.

So, which will it be: keep the dungeons/raids to small groups close to what a game of D&D should be and alienate the standard raid content MMO player, or make dungeons/raids huge to cater to rade content MMO players, but alienate the tabletop D&D player and risk being accused of merely making something unrelated to D&D and just slapping on the label and a D&D paint job?  Can't have it both ways.

Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  Fangrim

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/12
Posts: 474

5/13/13 6:14:03 PM#60
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by xKopogerox

I got the feeling if I commit I'll end up stuck at endgame with nothing to do due to lack of content. On top the way it's headed with big raids and 5v5 I'll be depending on a community, which will limit me when and how much I can enjoy it.

It's been proven in the past that themepark designed MMORPG's without big revenue cannot maintain a steady content and endgame features.

ThemeParks cannot maintain a steady content, period. WoW is the only one that has, it is simply a flawed model for a sustained MMO and that is why virtually every MMO, again except WoW, have seen declining subs unless they give the game away and go F2P.

EQ2 has put out more content than wow and is by far a superior game in every single way,its just run by an inferior company that doesn't advertise it.

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