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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » A bit more realism please.

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53 posts found
  Sengi

Novice Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 304

 
OP  5/11/13 2:53:35 PM#1

Almost every video game is a simulation to some extent. In games like lets say Super Mario World the whole game world does not make much sense at all but there are at least basic laws of physics in place like gravity.

Your standard sword & sorcery mmo on the other hand is much more based in reality. Everything is basically the same as in our world except there is magic and dragons and stuff. There is suspension of disbelief, but the world in itself makes sense. Magic is not just there but it influences many aspects of the world. Also not everything has to be diehard realistic but basically a sword is a sword and a guy us a guy.

 

But my point is that there are many game mechanics in place that are so blatantly unrealistic and contradict basic laws of physics or human endurance. Some are there for convenience and some are just here because it has always been that way I think.

 

My favourite one is the heath mechanic. This is really an important part in a game that evolves around fighting. Mmos borrow the concept of health points from D&D, and this is already an extreme simplified and artificial system. Mmos add to this that you replenish health absurdly fast. The character goes from near dead to full health in 5 seconds without any magic involved. I can’t see how this resembles someone having a sword run thought his shoulder in any way. It would be ok if there was at least an in game explanation for this. Imagine what impact it would have on the world if everyone was essentially like Wolverine.   

Of course no one wants a diehard realistic system, but there must be a way to represent wounds in a way that at least make it recognisable what this mechanic resembles. Also there are no visible wounds or disability caused by being almost dead. The character is well up with 1 hp, and then he suddenly drops dead.

 

I have made a list of other mechanics that are also inconsistent in the same way:

  • Respawning: No one wants permadeath so the character needs to come back to life somehow. But there needs to be an in game explanation. Don’t you think that people would at least talk about it if people would be resurrected all the time?
  • Food: In mmos food either replenishes health or it grants buffs, but this is not what food actually does, right? There could be a lot of gameplay about producing food and starvation, and this would also be a nice gold-drain.
  • Fall damage: Why are character able to drop from absurd heights without damage, just to make it easier to get around?
  • Endurance: Why not have an endurance mechanic? No one can run and fight forever. This would apply to mobs and make some interesting fighting tactics
  • Mob and npc behaviour: Does the game really need mobs that are as dump as a bucket of shrimp even if the resemble a sane human, and npcs that stand in one spot for eternity? Ultima 5 hat npcs go to bed at night.
  • Too many trash-mobs: A monster is only worth of its name if it is dangerous; otherwise we normally refer to it as vermin. What is the point of being attacked by all this pushover mobs all the time? Why don’t they run away?
  • Unrealistic loot drops: Why did this wolf have 30gp and a pair chain gauntlet? 
  • Too few usable items: I still can’t get over it how gw2 is missing something as basic as sitting in chairs. There are a lot of chairs everywhere even thrones but no one can sit in it.
  • Overscaled Buildings: The camera position over the characters head makes is necessary for every doorway to be 15 foot high.
  • Swimming and jumping around in full platemail

I’m sure there are lots of other game mechanics like this but ill leave it with that for now.

  asdar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/05
Posts: 590

5/11/13 3:00:45 PM#2

I agree with your first sentence or two and not with almost every other comment. Some of the examples I don't so much as disagree as think the devs do have them in game, such as falling damage in most games.

For me the realism that I want is damage, like you said and I want them to take away everything that glows or floats in the air. No floating exclamation marks for quests, no anything.

I also do agree with you on the stationary NPCs, and NPC behavior.

Asdar

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1830

5/11/13 3:10:51 PM#3

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

  Dihoru

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2615

5/11/13 3:15:02 PM#4
Go support project universe dude, that's what you mostly want.

  Vapors

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/10
Posts: 381

5/11/13 3:18:19 PM#5
Originally posted by Sengi

Almost every video game is a simulation to some extent. In games like lets say Super Mario World the whole game world does not make much sense at all but there are at least basic laws of physics in place like gravity.

Your standard sword & sorcery mmo on the other hand is much more based in reality. Everything is basically the same as in our world except there is magic and dragons and stuff. There is suspension of disbelief, but the world in itself makes sense. Magic is not just there but it influences many aspects of the world. Also not everything has to be diehard realistic but basically a sword is a sword and a guy us a guy.

 

But my point is that there are many game mechanics in place that are so blatantly unrealistic and contradict basic laws of physics or human endurance. Some are there for convenience and some are just here because it has always been that way I think.

 

My favourite one is the heath mechanic. This is really an important part in a game that evolves around fighting. Mmos borrow the concept of health points from D&D, and this is already an extreme simplified and artificial system. Mmos add to this that you replenish health absurdly fast. The character goes from near dead to full health in 5 seconds without any magic involved. I can’t see how this resembles someone having a sword run thought his shoulder in any way. It would be ok if there was at least an in game explanation for this. Imagine what impact it would have on the world if everyone was essentially like Wolverine.   

Of course no one wants a diehard realistic system, but there must be a way to represent wounds in a way that at least make it recognisable what this mechanic resembles. Also there are no visible wounds or disability caused by being almost dead. The character is well up with 1 hp, and then he suddenly drops dead.

 

I have made a list of other mechanics that are also inconsistent in the same way:

  • Respawning: No one wants permadeath so the character needs to come back to life somehow. But there needs to be an in game explanation. Don’t you think that people would at least talk about it if people would be resurrected all the time?
  • Food: In mmos food either replenishes health or it grants buffs, but this is not what food actually does, right? There could be a lot of gameplay about producing food and starvation, and this would also be a nice gold-drain.
  • Fall damage: Why are character able to drop from absurd heights without damage, just to make it easier to get around?
  • Endurance: Why not have an endurance mechanic? No one can run and fight forever. This would apply to mobs and make some interesting fighting tactics
  • Mob and npc behaviour: Does the game really need mobs that are as dump as a bucket of shrimp even if the resemble a sane human, and npcs that stand in one spot for eternity? Ultima 5 hat npcs go to bed at night.
  • Too many trash-mobs: A monster is only worth of its name if it is dangerous; otherwise we normally refer to it as vermin. What is the point of being attacked by all this pushover mobs all the time? Why don’t they run away?
  • Unrealistic loot drops: Why did this wolf have 30gp and a pair chain gauntlet? 
  • Too few usable items: I still can’t get over it how gw2 is missing something as basic as sitting in chairs. There are a lot of chairs everywhere even thrones but no one can sit in it.
  • Overscaled Buildings: The camera position over the characters head makes is necessary for every doorway to be 15 foot high.
  • Swimming and jumping around in full platemail

I’m sure there are lots of other game mechanics like this but ill leave it with that for now.

I really hope TESO will be like Skyrim, which had realistic loots and not so many trash mobs at all.

This is really a good point you mention there.

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1830

5/11/13 3:25:03 PM#6
Originally posted by Sengi
  • Too many trash-mobs: A monster is only worth of its name if it is dangerous; otherwise we normally refer to it as vermin. What is the point of being attacked by all this pushover mobs all the time? Why don’t they run away?

Trash mobs has several purposes. One of them is an arbitrary way to make a character feel he is growing stronger when he advances. Many MMOs have mechanics that turns aggression off when you out-level it. WoW for instance will let you walk past trivial mobs once you are X amount of levels ahead.

 

I can understand why people dislike these "pointless" encounters but the fact is, there are a lot of people who actually likes the idea of having trivial encounters they can steam-roll once they level past it. Just like there are a lot of people who likes the idea of having content that's too hard, motivating you to level up and advance. There's a reason why a lot of people hate level scaling

 

If you want a "realistic" reason why trash mobs attack you when they are clearly outmatched is simple. They have no concept of strong vs weak. Plenty of things will attack you in nature even though you are the top of the food chain.

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

5/11/13 3:25:38 PM#7
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

Solely focusing on something like you suggest is very min maxy and only happens in games, not int he real world.

  asrlohz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 648

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

5/11/13 3:26:19 PM#8

Some of those ideas were alright but a lot of them would alienate a great portion of the market. I would love to get debuffs for not eating and increase the usefulness of a chef profession but I'm afraid that most people just find that boring. Some may even compare it to a virtual pet system.

 

And extreme fall damage will be really problematic to design because most MMO's (and games) can't differ falling from skidding down a slope. I'd say that the best way to handle these things are by debuffs. If you take a critical hit to a certain bodypart you receive a debuff for say left-handed shieldblocks or something. But in the end it would become massively annoying for people because five lucky hits could spell doom for any skirmish. I might love playing stealth classes but I shiver at what imbalance backstabbing would bring.

  asrlohz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 648

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

5/11/13 3:27:53 PM#9
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

On the other hand, all of those people lead armies as well. Any man can fall prey to bad luck. Attila the Hun wasn't necessarily any stronger than his soldiers.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/11/13 3:36:12 PM#10

Except all games are not simulation. Some games are art. Some games are designed to evoke certain feelings. Some games are nothing but a dialogue between the creator and the player working through a particular problem. Dr Mario for example was most certainly not a simulation of how to be a doctor.

As for your list, generally most of that is skipped because frankly, most do not find them fun. Look at http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang for example. Its a neat idea, but to the vast majority it does not look like fun. There is far too much Hollywood ninja bullshit in the general populace to think that looks badass.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

5/11/13 3:36:55 PM#11
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

On the other hand, all of those people lead armies as well. Any man can fall prey to bad luck. Attila the Hun wasn't necessarily any stronger than his soldiers.

Neither is one character fom one another save some overpowered loot, for all intent and purposes our characters are just strong and dedicated soldiers,  and leaders. After all what is a hero if not someone who leads the rest of the world to the light?

Also Attila de Hun was indeed stronger that a bunch of his soldiers, the Huns wouldnt follow a weak leader. He wasnt the best of the best, but by no means was he average.

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1830

5/11/13 3:37:33 PM#12
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

Solely focusing on something like you suggest is very min maxy and only happens in games, not int he real world.

It has nothing to do with intelligence really but the time and commitment, plus it was an example not a universal rule. A developer can easily create a world where magic flows through everyone making everybody magic users in some way. As long as it makes sense in that particular universe and is explained well

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

5/11/13 3:41:42 PM#13
Originally posted by Sengi

 

  • Respawning: No one wants permadeath so the character needs to come back to life somehow. But there needs to be an in game explanation. Don’t you think that people would at least talk about it if people would be resurrected all the time? Most MMOs (and some shooters) do offer an explanation of how or why this happens.
  • Food: In mmos food either replenishes health or it grants buffs, but this is not what food actually does, right? There could be a lot of gameplay about producing food and starvation, and this would also be a nice gold-drain. Most players dislike mechanics that are basically maintenance timers, so over time things like that have been done away with, although you do have games like Salem where you can find yourself dragging ass through the forest trying to find anything to replenish your saliva. You're in the minority, however, when it comes to adoring starvation and exhaustion game mechanics, which is why they are present but very limited. File eating in the same bin as crapping and sleeping - assume your character is doing that on their time, not yours.  
  • Fall damage: Why are character able to drop from absurd heights without damage, just to make it easier to get around? Most MMOs have fall damage. IMO, if it doesn't add to gameplay or proves a hindrance to exploration/travel then I'm all for it being absent. 
  • Endurance: Why not have an endurance mechanic? No one can run and fight forever. This would apply to mobs and make some interesting fighting tactics See point 2.
  • Mob and npc behaviour: Does the game really need mobs that are as dump as a bucket of shrimp even if the resemble a sane human, and npcs that stand in one spot for eternity? Ultima 5 hat npcs go to bed at night. UO had NPCs that went to bed at night. Players didn't enjoy standing around waiting for shops to open. I think AC had that, as well. 
  • Too many trash-mobs: A monster is only worth of its name if it is dangerous; otherwise we normally refer to it as vermin. What is the point of being attacked by all this pushover mobs all the time? Why don’t they run away? Mobs in most mainstream MMOs are a means to an end, which is levelling. Change the end goal and you can easily change the mobs. 
  • Unrealistic loot drops: Why did this wolf have 30gp and a pair chain gauntlet? Because if it didn't you either wouldn't kill it or would consider it far less valuable than the mob with the same xp return and a loot drop. 
  • Too few usable items: I still can’t get over it how gw2 is missing something as basic as sitting in chairs. There are a lot of chairs everywhere even thrones but no one can sit in it. If devs found that MMO players were sitting in chairs and it had gameplay value for the players, they would add it. 
  • Overscaled Buildings: The camera position over the characters head makes is necessary for every doorway to be 15 foot high. Is this really an issue for you?
  • Swimming and jumping around in full platemail It's magical. If you want realism, platemail would probably be almost non-existent, as it was too cumbersome and too expensive. One way to solve your problem is to play female characters - their armor is often anything but cumbersome or restrictive. 

Almost all of what you point out are changes made to support what most players wanted or didn't want in their gameplay. Check out Salem. You'd probably like it. 

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

5/11/13 3:42:54 PM#14
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

Solely focusing on something like you suggest is very min maxy and only happens in games, not int he real world.

It has nothing to do with intelligence really but the time and commitment, plus it was an example not a universal rule. A developer can easily create a world where magic flows through everyone making everybody magic users in some way. As long as it makes sense in that particular universe and is explained well

Maybe i didnt explain it well, sorry english sint my first language. What i mean is that if magic existed in this world all those great leaders would also be great magic users, maybe one focusing on one over the other slightly but still adept at both.

Because our characters are heroes like the ones in our history, changinc history and such it is actually realism to expect that we should be adept at everything, we can wield magic and wear plate armor, because we are HEROES.

This goes against classic DnD rules and the like, but this is what realism trully is. 

  asrlohz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 648

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

5/11/13 3:44:52 PM#15
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

On the other hand, all of those people lead armies as well. Any man can fall prey to bad luck. Attila the Hun wasn't necessarily any stronger than his soldiers.

Neither is one character fom one another save some overpowered loot, for all intent and purposes our characters are just strong and dedicated soldiers,  and leaders. After all what is a hero if not someone who leads the rest of the world to the light?

What you just said was completely irrelevant to what you claimed previously.

There is a reason why you don't see bodybuilders in the League of Legends tournaments. If you are to become an expert at any craft you need to focus on it. War-tactics and arcane knowledge are two very different things. A leader would learn tactics from his craft, but he wouldn't learn magic from it. Most great generals had strategists by their sides as well. It was never a one-man-work.

  Dihoru

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2615

5/11/13 3:48:27 PM#16
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

Solely focusing on something like you suggest is very min maxy and only happens in games, not int he real world.

It has nothing to do with intelligence really but the time and commitment, plus it was an example not a universal rule. A developer can easily create a world where magic flows through everyone making everybody magic users in some way. As long as it makes sense in that particular universe and is explained well

Maybe i didnt explain it well, sorry english sint my first language. What i mean is that if magic existed in this world all those great leaders would also be great magic users, maybe one focusing on one over the other slightly but still adept at both.

Because our characters are heroes like the ones in our history, changinc history and such it is actually realism to expect that we should be adept at everything, we can wield magic and wear plate armor, because we are HEROES.

This goes against classic DnD rules and the like, but this is what realism trully is. 

Lad you do know the difference between myth and legend/history written by the victor and realism, right? Hint: World War 2 sherman tanks were death traps, T-34s were shittier tanks than all their german adversaries, the only reason most think either of those tanks were any good was because history was rewritten to suit the victors.

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

5/11/13 3:53:06 PM#17
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

On the other hand, all of those people lead armies as well. Any man can fall prey to bad luck. Attila the Hun wasn't necessarily any stronger than his soldiers.

Neither is one character fom one another save some overpowered loot, for all intent and purposes our characters are just strong and dedicated soldiers,  and leaders. After all what is a hero if not someone who leads the rest of the world to the light?

What you just said was completely irrelevant to what you claimed previously.

There is a reason why you don't see bodybuilders in the League of Legends tournaments. If you are to become an expert at any craft you need to focus on it. War-tactics and arcane knowledge are two very different things. A leader would learn tactics from his craft, but he wouldn't learn magic from it. Most great generals had strategists by their sides as well. It was never a one-man-work.

I dont thimnk you people are getting it. We are Heroes, not just one random bodybuilder. We are gifted and unique, Just like they were were a lot of gifted individuals in history that could do it all.

Also are you implying we can only be experts of one craft? 

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

5/11/13 3:54:47 PM#18
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

Solely focusing on something like you suggest is very min maxy and only happens in games, not int he real world.

It has nothing to do with intelligence really but the time and commitment, plus it was an example not a universal rule. A developer can easily create a world where magic flows through everyone making everybody magic users in some way. As long as it makes sense in that particular universe and is explained well

Maybe i didnt explain it well, sorry english sint my first language. What i mean is that if magic existed in this world all those great leaders would also be great magic users, maybe one focusing on one over the other slightly but still adept at both.

Because our characters are heroes like the ones in our history, changinc history and such it is actually realism to expect that we should be adept at everything, we can wield magic and wear plate armor, because we are HEROES.

This goes against classic DnD rules and the like, but this is what realism trully is. 

Lad you do know the difference between myth and legend/history written by the victor and realism, right? Hint: World War 2 sherman tanks were death traps, T-34s were shittier tanks than all their german adversaries, the only reason most think either of those tanks were any good was because history was rewritten to suit the victors.

Im not following, are you saying that theres is not one  great heroe in the history of humanity that was trully gifted and could do it all? Because thats the kind of heroes we are suposed to be in our games 

Ps: according to your profile we got the same age so you might want to change that....or calling me lad sounds weird

  asrlohz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 648

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

5/11/13 3:56:17 PM#19
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

Solely focusing on something like you suggest is very min maxy and only happens in games, not int he real world.

It has nothing to do with intelligence really but the time and commitment, plus it was an example not a universal rule. A developer can easily create a world where magic flows through everyone making everybody magic users in some way. As long as it makes sense in that particular universe and is explained well

Maybe i didnt explain it well, sorry english sint my first language. What i mean is that if magic existed in this world all those great leaders would also be great magic users, maybe one focusing on one over the other slightly but still adept at both.

Because our characters are heroes like the ones in our history, changinc history and such it is actually realism to expect that we should be adept at everything, we can wield magic and wear plate armor, because we are HEROES.

This goes against classic DnD rules and the like, but this is what realism trully is. 

Lad you do know the difference between myth and legend/history written by the victor and realism, right? Hint: World War 2 sherman tanks were death traps, T-34s were shittier tanks than all their german adversaries, the only reason most think either of those tanks were any good was because history was rewritten to suit the victors.

History is adapted to fit the nation's perspective. And those tanks were revolutionary for their time, hence that's how they will be remembered. Our modern-day cars would be considered deathtraps in 50 years as well.

  Dihoru

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2615

5/11/13 4:03:47 PM#20
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by StonesDK

Although I don't agree with your examples I do agree with the overall sentiments. Things have to make sense in the world they are created. It doesn't have to mimic real life but it does have to make sense within the realm it exist.

 

Just to give an example: Wizards being physically weak because they spent lifetimes researching scrolls and reading books, not having time to go to the gym and lift weights to become strong enough to wield a 2h axe. Same goes for a warrior who spent his life training with various weapons building his strength and stamina not having time to go to the library. It makes zero sense to me to see a wizard in plate fighting with heavy swords while casting fireballs and lightning, simply because little jimmy wants total freedom in his games to make characters the way he wants them to.

Why? Those ideas are made up in your head. In reality a lot of the greatest warriors have been great thinkers and had a balanced life of swordpractice and dwelled in the arts.

Julio Cesar, Miyamoto Mushashi, Richard I, hell you think Sun Tzu was a weaksauce person? Most generals were great warriors and great thinkers

So why cant a Strong warrior be smart and know magic in his world and a magician be physically fit? Humans are not so black n white.

Solely focusing on something like you suggest is very min maxy and only happens in games, not int he real world.

It has nothing to do with intelligence really but the time and commitment, plus it was an example not a universal rule. A developer can easily create a world where magic flows through everyone making everybody magic users in some way. As long as it makes sense in that particular universe and is explained well

Maybe i didnt explain it well, sorry english sint my first language. What i mean is that if magic existed in this world all those great leaders would also be great magic users, maybe one focusing on one over the other slightly but still adept at both.

Because our characters are heroes like the ones in our history, changinc history and such it is actually realism to expect that we should be adept at everything, we can wield magic and wear plate armor, because we are HEROES.

This goes against classic DnD rules and the like, but this is what realism trully is. 

Lad you do know the difference between myth and legend/history written by the victor and realism, right? Hint: World War 2 sherman tanks were death traps, T-34s were shittier tanks than all their german adversaries, the only reason most think either of those tanks were any good was because history was rewritten to suit the victors.

Im not following, are you saying that theres is not one  great heroe in the history of humanity that was trully gifted and could do it all? Because thats the kind of heroes we are suposed to be in our games 

They were either ambitious, smart or both. Truly gifted is stretching it, Julius Caesar used existing mechanism to do what he did, Alexander The Great exploited the status quo, most of the Hellenic heroes likely have hyperinflated deeds attributed to them, they likely did something but nowhere near as epic (example: Troy was hardly a city defended by cyclops built walls, it was likely one of a handful of cities in the early bronze age that had stone or stone augmented walls), every modern hero had maybe one attribute and allot of flaws (the genius Rommel was hamstrung by his own loyalty, Patton was a good tactician but was lousy when it came to being patient, MacArthur was a good general but an utter numbskull in terms of politics,  Simo Häyhä was a massively efficient marksman but was kinda of a simple person intellectually, etc). What we term as heroes are regular humans in the right place with the right skillset, they were not supermen, in fact if we take a look at Alexander the Great... that guy died either due to alcohol poisoning or just poisoned and his empire fell apart within a few months and whatever was left was dead and gone within half a century.

 

Edit: To the guy who said the tanks were revolutionary: They weren't, the sherman was such a flawed design it took 20 years for it to be shown just how much the americans botched their own tanks when the ISD took surplus shermans and turned them into proto-MBTs capable of taking on T-55 and T-62 tanks. The T-34 was shit, it was less reliable than a panther tank and far worse than a Tiger 1, it was only marginally better than the Tiger 2 and the Ferdinand, the reason they were so deadly was there were around 10-20 of them for every enemy tank.

 

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