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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Question Everything: Levels, Who needs em?

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54 posts found
  Zu_bei

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/07
Posts: 16

5/10/13 8:53:42 AM#21
So, with that endgame you need to give new players a chance to compete, which is why CU will have horizontal progression.
  Four0Six

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1193

5/10/13 8:58:29 AM#22
Originally posted by Bamboozle
The way CU will be will give players an endless endgame. An ever changing battlefield that the players create and destroy. How great does that sound?

Sounds great, sort of.

I play MMOs for lots of reasons, mainly fun but lots of reasons. 1 of the other biggies? Charatcer progression. Playing a game that is "all endgame", wheather or not it is "player created battlefield", sounds to me to be shallow. There is a misconception that "endgame" is large and a majority of content, It is not, the majority takes place before the "endgame".

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

5/10/13 9:02:34 AM#23

Most of this discussion is stupid.  People are getting caught up in their own terminology and arguing for meaningless distinctions.  All the "horizontal" progression examples in this thread are no different than most "vertical progression".  In all cases you increase in power from acquiring a greater variety of abilities.

 

In all cases you're not really competitive until you hit your max "horizontal level" and get all (or at least most of) your abilities.

 

 

A truly horizontal progression would look more like the following:

 

- you have 30 spec points

- trees have 30 possible points

- you have 5 trees

- trees are unlocked via "progression"

 

 

That is horizontal progression.  In order to invest and acquire "horizontal" capabilities, you have to subtract investment from your initial tree.

 

 

Or GW2's beta weapon model:

 

- at level 1 you have access to certain weapons that provide X set of skills

- at level 10, 20, 30, you gain access to other weapons that provide Y and Z set of skills, replacing X

 

 

 

As a general observation, level-based systems are useful for devs because they are simpler than skill-based systems.  The result is that they're actually balanceable.  Skill-based systems (a la UO) are the most exploitable, most min-maxable.  They provide the most "theoretical" build variety, but usually the least practical variety -- unless you want to wait through 4 years of balance patches/tweaks before playing.

 

 

CU could implement a class / subclass / subspec / guild faction / realm spec system where the first is baseline, middle 3 are horizontal and the last is slightly vertical.

 

For example, you choose a base class at char creation.  You promote to a subclass based on whatever criteria and set an actual spec.  You can go back and change your subclass via some random mechanism.  You can respec at any time.  You can also join a guild faction within your realm that has its own shallow customization / spec.  You can drop that guild and join a different one that has a different customization.

 

That's just an example.

  Zu_bei

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/07
Posts: 16

5/10/13 9:21:18 AM#24
On my tablet so I can't quite, apparently lol. Besides the combat and rvr there's a lot more to it. That's just my favorite part.
  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2132

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

5/10/13 9:24:21 AM#25
EasyModeX, you should look at the kickstarter updates. Mark explains in one of them the difference between vertical and horisontal progression.

"Tiny clown, he got wet. I was talking to a psychic and I can't sleep in the ozone. There are too many different peanuts, looking sad.

  Rainfall13

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/13
Posts: 7

5/10/13 9:41:27 AM#26

For the record - there was a fellow named Sashieden(SP?) on Bedevere / Midgard ( DAoC).  He managed, even on DAoC .. one of the kings of the grind in Western games of its time ... to max to level 50 within the first month to month and a half of game releasing and be halfway through his next level 50 already on top of that ... + help power level 2 others to 50 in the process.  I think he had one of the world firsts.

That said .. it took me about 6-8 months to get my first level 50.  I still look on that 50 fondly.  :P

I want to be powerful right out of the gate.  Powerful meaning competitive.  I don't want to sit around bored and idle all day long waiting to be able to compete and influence the game world.  I do NOT want to deal with having to hit max level to be able to do anything worth doing in the game.  Do you know how many games I've quit because I just can't take the grind anymore?  Literally, I WANT to play TOR .. but I just can't force myself to do it.  I just can't.  I want to enjoy TERA because it's got a fun combat system ... but it's just too damn grindy.  I've spent so much time grinding out MMos in the last near 15 years that I just can't do it anymore.  My time is precious and I don't need to kill swamp rats for hours a day to justify a meaningful connection to my character.  As long as I see some sort of progression, goals met or otherwise in my character ...or I obtain certain levels of gear or certain appearances of gear - I feel like my character is growing and so am I as a gamer in this particular game.

That is all I want - is measurable growth even if it is not in the typical means of doing so.  I want to know I am improving as a player and my character is improving as it grows and I spend more time on it.  Realm Ranks were fun and all .. but trying to knock out a RR8+ at RR 4 ... Chances are slim.  Then you get the RR12 who drop entire groups on their own.  It feels great to have achieved absolute bad-assery.  But, when you can spend 1 weekend and get from RR1-8 in an 8 man super team ... 24 hours ... its value is lost.  Entirely.  24 hours = your investment.  Whoopty fricken-do.

The quicker you speed up leveling, the worse it gets.  The longer it takes, the more we are used to it.  The quicker it goes, the faster we want it.  It's a snowball going downhill.  Just like flying mounts and mount speed.  The faster it goes, the faster we need it.  It's not going to stop until someone outright removes levels all together and makes you instant badasses capable of taking on the most seasoned vet and not just being coughed at and dying on hour 1 and you have epic huge battles and everyone is viable ... wait a second .. isn't that CU's goal?  Have we perhaps come full circle?

  TigsKC

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 142

5/10/13 10:02:22 AM#27
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by Bamboozle
The way CU will be will give players an endless endgame. An ever changing battlefield that the players create and destroy. How great does that sound?

Sounds great, sort of.

I play MMOs for lots of reasons, mainly fun but lots of reasons. 1 of the other biggies? Charatcer progression. Playing a game that is "all endgame", wheather or not it is "player created battlefield", sounds to me to be shallow.

That's cool.  It sounds like you want a character that may become truly epic and powerful.  There are many games that do this.  I think CU will be a game where its player appreciates being part of a team/realm and playing a role or cog in that greater machine.

The odd thing is that in many games your character can become awesome, but still have no real effect on the world.  I believe CU will give us the feeling of making a difference even without handing out the god-like powers of super-heroes and shiny level badges.  I would rather make a difference by guarding the realm's resource transport that will allow us to complete a bridge project to improve our attack route than smiting a whole party of lowbie adventurers with the wave of my hand.

/different strokes

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Ice-Queen

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2462

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

5/10/13 10:05:55 AM#28
Ultima Online had no levels and no questing, and it was one of the best mmorpg's I ever played.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Zinzan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1372

5/10/13 10:53:28 AM#29
Originally posted by EasymodeX

Most of this discussion is stupid.  People are getting caught up in their own terminology and arguing for meaningless distinctions.  All the "horizontal" progression examples in this thread are no different than most "vertical progression".  In all cases you increase in power from acquiring a greater variety of abilities.

 

In all cases you're not really competitive until you hit your max "horizontal level" and get all (or at least most of) your abilities.

 

 

A truly horizontal progression would look more like the following:

 

- you have 30 spec points

- trees have 30 possible points

- you have 5 trees

- trees are unlocked via "progression"

 

 

That is horizontal progression.  In order to invest and acquire "horizontal" capabilities, you have to subtract investment from your initial tree.

This is the problem, people are indeed getting caught up in meaningless terminology, vertical, horizontal, perpendicular, progression is progression regardless.

Im afraid i reject your example though, that's linear progression still :)

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

5/10/13 11:30:14 AM#30
Originally posted by Zinzan

This is the problem, people are indeed getting caught up in meaningless terminology, vertical, horizontal, perpendicular, progression is progression regardless.

Im afraid i reject your example though, that's linear progression still :)

Starting with 30 spec points and reallocating them is pretty horizontal from what I can tell..

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

5/10/13 11:36:17 AM#31
Originally posted by EasymodeX
Originally posted by Zinzan

This is the problem, people are indeed getting caught up in meaningless terminology, vertical, horizontal, perpendicular, progression is progression regardless.

Im afraid i reject your example though, that's linear progression still :)

Starting with 30 spec points and reallocating them is pretty horizontal from what I can tell..

Depends on the trees =p That last tree  you can obtain could be god mode and that isn't horizontal at all~~ Either way I don't care... I like vertical progression because I know it works, but I know it hurts in the long run.

 

On a side note... I have a feeling i'll be questioning my sanity after 2yrs of these threads. Question everything indeed.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2149

joie de vivre

 
OP  5/10/13 11:37:37 AM#32


Originally posted by The1ceQueen
Ultima Online had no levels and no questing, and it was one of the best mmorpg's I ever played.

QFT

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  professornomos

Novice Member

Joined: 4/29/13
Posts: 67

5/10/13 11:47:49 AM#33
Originally posted by Odaman

On a side note... I have a feeling i'll be questioning my sanity after 2yrs of these threads. Question everything indeed.

 

FWIW as much as Time/Tierless is a great propagandist/evangelist for CU, his "question everything" approach only works as a rhetorical strategy because we have nothing to empirically investigate.  

I suspect this particular rabbit hole will mercifully end when we get real content to address

 

 

  duggyfr3sh123

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/13
Posts: 102

5/10/13 11:52:05 AM#34
Originally posted by Tierless

 


Originally posted by The1ceQueen
Ultima Online had no levels and no questing, and it was one of the best mmorpg's I ever played.

 

QFT

UO wasn't a glorified battleground though. it's shameful to even try comparing it with CU in any way.

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

5/10/13 11:52:27 AM#35
Originally posted by professornomos
 

I suspect this particular rabbit hole will mercifully end when we get real content to address

I hope so ;) I've been a bit bored myself waiting for the vacation to end.

  TigsKC

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 142

5/10/13 12:08:21 PM#36
Originally posted by Zinzan

This is the problem, people are indeed getting caught up in meaningless terminology, vertical, horizontal, perpendicular, progression is progression regardless.

No.  The terms horizontal and vertical do have meaning.  In fact, to my ears, the notice that CU will have horizontal progression is one of the most meaningful things I have heard MJ say to date.

While vertical progression games (e.g., WoW) do have some horizontal components (e.g., new skills from class training), CU will not have the hallmark of vertical progression games.  Namely, it will not have:

Level 10 Warrior swings sword - 10 damage

Level 20 Warrior swings sword - 30 damage

Level 40 Warrior swings sword - 180 damage

Level 60 Warrior swings sword - 850 damage

Level 80 Warrior swings sword - 2250 damage

Largely, it is growth of "power" with level that motives folks to fly past content to arrive at some preferred end-state of uber-power as a prime objective.

I will not miss this crap at all.

Yes, horizontal progression will give the more experienced, accomplished player some advantages and additional flexibility in 1v1 over a new player, but it will not be anything as obscene as the Warrior example above.

 

 

 
  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

5/10/13 12:58:44 PM#37
Originally posted by Zinzan

This is the problem, people are indeed getting caught up in meaningless terminology, vertical, horizontal, perpendicular, progression is progression regardless.

Im afraid i reject your example though, that's linear progression still :)

You do know that horizontal progression is a form of linear progression right?  If you take a piece of paper and draw a line from left to right, you have a line.. which progresses.. horizontally.

 

Those are what the words literally mean.

 

Vertical progression means you are drawing a line upwards along a scale of power.  When you add new content, you draw the line further upwards.  Vertically.  The top of the line is constantly extending further and further away along the Y axis from the bottom of the line.

 

Horizontal means you are drawing the same line sideways.  When you add new content you extend the line further to the side, opening up new options but not drastically increasing relative power.

 

That is what the words "vertical" and "horizontal" mean.  And "linear" just means youre talking "about a line".

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

5/10/13 1:13:09 PM#38
I like horizontal progression and the way MJ is presenting it. However, it feels good to ding.

Too early to tell. Things change a lot throughout the course of design for every game. What makes sense on paper might not make sense in-game when weighed against other, more highly-prioritized design decisions.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  zeroumus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 54

5/10/13 6:43:45 PM#39
Originally posted by TigsKC
Originally posted by Zinzan

This is the problem, people are indeed getting caught up in meaningless terminology, vertical, horizontal, perpendicular, progression is progression regardless.

No.  The terms horizontal and vertical do have meaning.  In fact, to my ears, the notice that CU will have horizontal progression is one of the most meaningful things I have heard MJ say to date.

While vertical progression games (e.g., WoW) do have some horizontal components (e.g., new skills from class training), CU will not have the hallmark of vertical progression games.  Namely, it will not have:

Level 10 Warrior swings sword - 10 damage

Level 20 Warrior swings sword - 30 damage

Level 40 Warrior swings sword - 180 damage

Level 60 Warrior swings sword - 850 damage

Level 80 Warrior swings sword - 2250 damage

Largely, it is growth of "power" with level that motives folks to fly past content to arrive at some preferred end-state of uber-power as a prime objective.

I will not miss this crap at all.

Yes, horizontal progression will give the more experienced, accomplished player some advantages and additional flexibility in 1v1 over a new player, but it will not be anything as obscene as the Warrior example above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

if there is levels,  i would hope it will go more like this

 

 

Level 10 Warrior swings sword - 10 damage

Level 20 Warrior swings sword - 14 damage

Level 40 Warrior swings sword - 17 damage

Level 60 Warrior swings sword - 19 damage

Level 80 Warrior swings sword - 20 damage

 

 

your level don't matter to much after you leave to starter zone,   but your still going to want to obtain max level,  but it may not be your first priority.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2149

joie de vivre

 
OP  5/10/13 8:57:21 PM#40


Originally posted by professornomos

Originally posted by Odaman On a side note... I have a feeling i'll be questioning my sanity after 2yrs of these threads. Question everything indeed.
 

FWIW as much as Time/Tierless is a great propagandist/evangelist for CU, his "question everything" approach only works as a rhetorical strategy because we have nothing to empirically investigate.  

I suspect this particular rabbit hole will mercifully end when we get real content to address

 

 


It's all entertainment to me ;)

FWIW I am flattered to be called a propagandist, and am offended to be called an evangelist!

On a real note, I'm not just questioning in terms of CU, but the genre as a whole. I'm sure the industry heads have done a lot of questioning, it probably went something like, "how can we make more money" "how can we appeal to more players" "how can we make it so everyone gets a trophy" "why are our subs going down" "why did our game fail" "why didn't we ask ourselves better questions".


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