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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Should crafting be dynamic and complex? Or should it be grinding proficiency like traditional MMORPGs?

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35 posts found
  stevebombsquad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 670

5/09/13 9:44:52 PM#21
Originally posted by Phry
i put down i have a better idea too, best implementation of crafting i've ever seen in an MMO was the Pre-CU/NGE crafting in SWG, its pretty much the measure i use when evaluating other games.

This. There has been no better system!

James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  Deivos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1716

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/10/13 12:26:36 AM#22

Considering many of the same elements that would be used to contribute to the complexity of combat would be elements you can establish in crafting, I don't think the two are all that divergent. Quite fairly, it's part of why crafting is such a common companion activity.

 

The thing to achieve is balance. Salem is a game focused almost entirely on crafting, but a lot of people are  not particularly enthused by the game. An issue that comes to mind is the controls are a bit on the abnormal side, and the time required to do stuff is dragged out rather long.

 

But as for the crafting itself it's in part too complex. There are other games that might be a better example, but the more steps you add the more you are taking it away from a mechanic people will be able to remain invested in.

 

Parting out the elements of crafting so that they have a basic level of component assembly, component fabrication, and resource management tends to be the most complex a system needs to be. The task is wrapping that up in a manner that doesn't alienate or annoy others.

 

Taking your brewing example, it means there's a few more contained parts to crafting, and less of the activity like transfers and lautering. A cleaner process that approximates, but contracts the experience is a good goal, and siding it with more visual elements makes people more likely to be accepting of the process.

 

I'd break the process down into cultivation, preparation, and assembly.

 

Cultivation - This can be one of two things. If kept simple, it's the ability to select certain types of resource nodes that respawn at a set interval, basically small automated farm patches you can construct in town to produce the resources you desire. As your place gets bigger, you can level up the resource nodes so they give more resources, or build more within your guild's town.

Alternatively it can take on a Harvest Moon approach of you going through a planting, tending, and harvesting phase. Designating a section of town to be a farm lot that you can freely alter the resources you are producing.

 

Preparation - This step is a paired down for of the fabrication process. Taking raw resources and using them in some combination to produce a 'part'. The type of resource(and possibly quality) dictates what the contributing stats of the final product will become.

This process is largely one that can easily be handled by a menu that you just slot resources into, though it you wished it to be interactive you could blend it with a minigame.

 

Assembly - This step is more or less the task of plugging things into one another. In the Preparation step, one of the components created would act as the base, and the other components are things that you plug into that in order to create the whole.

For something like cooking, that's a one way task, you select the base component, and plug in the extra bits, then poof, the final product with all stats mushed together.

Equipment can be designed so that it can be dismantled though. Being able to open up the final product and remove a component so that you can replace it with a different one, either to change the stats, or maybe introduce an entirely different stat (like say replacing a piece of a weapon to imbue it with an elemental attribute).

 

Crafters similarly could take the extra step of breaking down components to gain back resources.

 

The town itself then has two main building types that you'd be possessing. Node production facilities and preparation facilities. Each one could have tiers associated with them that as they level, unlocks higher tier resources and item quality achievable via harvesting and crafting.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  MMOPapa

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 121

There's a reason you can't spell Deadline without the word 'dead'.

5/10/13 1:44:46 AM#23
Originally posted by Deivos

I'd break the process down into cultivation, preparation, and assembly.

As hand-in-hand as Gathering (or cultivation as you call it) and Crafting goes, I do not consider Gathering to be a part of the Crafting process; simply because the two systems are completely different. For example; You can have a great gathering system but a horrible crafting system, like Firefall for example.

  Deivos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1716

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/10/13 1:51:28 AM#24

Somewhat true, but the point of a gathering system is to provide a part of crafting, so I don't exactly consider it a separate element.

 

I mean, you can have gathering as it's own thing, but unless you do something with those resources, it's not really an activity leading you anywhere. Even Harvest Moon your resources were always going towards making or achieving something, so gathering is itself naturally a component of another system.

In this case, crafting.

 

You can remove it too from the crafting scheme, but then you're place in the predicament of what you're doing with resources, because without a limit, people are just making whatever whenever. Unless it's a 'creative mode' style game where you're just freeform making things, it takes away from the pacing, challenge, and reward you get from following through the system.

 

It can be a bad or a good component, but it's still a component.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  MMOPapa

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 121

There's a reason you can't spell Deadline without the word 'dead'.

5/10/13 2:01:56 AM#25
Originally posted by Deivos

Somewhat true, but the point of a gathering system is to provide a part of crafting, so I don't exactly consider it a separate element.

 

I mean, you can have gathering as it's own thing, but unless you do something with those resources, it's not really an activity leading you anywhere. Even Harvest Moon your resources were always going towards making or achieving something, so gathering is itself naturally a component of another system.

In this case, crafting.

 

You can remove it too from the crafting scheme, but then you're place in the predicament of what you're doing with resources, because without a limit, people are just making whatever whenever. Unless it's a 'creative mode' style game where you're just freeform making things, it takes away from the pacing, challenge, and reward you get from following through the system.

 

It can be a bad or a good component, but it's still a component.

You seem to have the perspective of a woman of crafting experience. Personally, as I previously stated, I have never been much of a fanatic for the crafting aspect of MMORPGs until I began beta testing for 'Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn' so I can only hope to learn more in this field that I have neglected so. :)

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

5/10/13 4:17:36 AM#26
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Phry
i put down i have a better idea too, best implementation of crafting i've ever seen in an MMO was the Pre-CU/NGE crafting in SWG, its pretty much the measure i use when evaluating other games.

This. There has been no better system!

I agree having 5 crafters in that game from launch on up til 6 months before closure. Many cities on Intrepid were made from my structures and I always kept a guildhall stocked with vendors packed with items. It was fun and i loved the business aspect, something no other game has made me feel.

But to say pre-nge crafting, that is total BS. The NGE didnt change crafting other than change the professions around. The crafting basics and style were the exact same minus the removal of creature handler. because 90% of the items i made before the nge i made after and the exact same way.

Only thing later added that sucked was removing "upgrade" items like krayt tissues and acklay bones from crafting/game.

Matter of fact crafting after NGE exploded and we had tons of new stuff, especialy DE's (making 12 new styles of droids). Adding super BER harvesters was great. New house style and tons of new decor.Dont really see the hate for after nge crafting.

Until the player based economy and crafting were uprooted by the konsole kiddies and their loot based system that LA fed them like candy.

  benseine

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 244

 
OP  5/10/13 6:10:28 PM#27
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by benseine

Well the game wil have normal guilds and crafting guilds. Each type can build guild cities with different kind of buildings. Crafting guilds can build the structures that give you acces to the best gear. So ppl with different interests can be in different guild types (I also believe you can be in two type of guilds at once). 

The problem with that approach is if a game has too many focuses it ends up doing everything poorly.

And it can work sometimes.  Skyrim tries lots of things, but just about all of them are ruthlessly mediocre (except their graphics programmers who are actually pretty damn impressive.)  But most players appear unhindered by the fact that so many of Skyrim's facets are shallow at best, and broken at worst.  I worked with a lead designer from Oblivion who referred to this as "dog's breakfast" feature design, because they basically threw bits and pieces of any game feature they could think of into the game.

So personally I like to see games focus on fewer, but higher-quality features.  Those are the games I enjoy best, they're most likely to also be deep games I can play for a long time without tiring.  By creating fewer features a team is able to pour more polish, love, and game balance into them to make them more fun to play with.

So for me it's not much of a selling point to explain there are both combat- and crafting-focused guilds, because it weakens my expectations of both.

 

Well the graphics of Gloria Victis are also pretty nice. Would love to see them create a game as fun as Skyrim. Don't agree with you though. One of the reasons games as WoW and EVE are so succesfull is that they are alround games. They have more to offer then just pvp or raiding or crafting. They have succesfully implemented more then one aspect of mmorpg's :)
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/10/13 10:53:58 PM#28
Originally posted by benseine

 

Well the graphics of Gloria Victis are also pretty nice. Would love to see them create a game as fun as Skyrim. Don't agree with you though. One of the reasons games as WoW and EVE are so succesfull is that they are alround games. They have more to offer then just pvp or raiding or crafting. They have succesfully implemented more then one aspect of mmorpg's :)

I guess it's fair to suggest WOW isn't a super focused game.

It's not impossible to do many things well, just very difficult.

  VincerKaden

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 460

5/10/13 11:06:27 PM#29
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Phry
i put down i have a better idea too, best implementation of crafting i've ever seen in an MMO was the Pre-CU/NGE crafting in SWG, its pretty much the measure i use when evaluating other games.

This. There has been no better system!

Very true. I have yet to see a crafting system come even CLOSE to SWG. I positively hate crafting in EVERY other MMO I've tried. SWG has set a standard that, for me, will be difficult to reach.

  MMOPapa

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 121

There's a reason you can't spell Deadline without the word 'dead'.

5/10/13 11:32:57 PM#30
Originally posted by Vayman
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Phry
i put down i have a better idea too, best implementation of crafting i've ever seen in an MMO was the Pre-CU/NGE crafting in SWG, its pretty much the measure i use when evaluating other games.

This. There has been no better system!

Very true. I have yet to see a crafting system come even CLOSE to SWG. I positively hate crafting in EVERY other MMO I've tried. SWG has set a standard that, for me, will be difficult to reach.

I honestly don't recall anything special about SWG's crafting system... after a certain point you still had no chances of failure but could still produce quality items from the comfort of your home, while you weren't even there! I don't know, I've never been a fan of the 'place 200 items in queue and walk away from your keyboard' simplicity of crafting in majority of MMORPGs. I guess that's why I've fallen in love with FFXIV:ARR's crafting system; you can NOT walk away from that and expect to be productive.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3884

RIP City of Heroes!

5/10/13 11:37:43 PM#31
Originally posted by Axehilt

Both.  It depends.

Is your game crafting-centric?  Then create a system elaborate enough to involve a lot of dynamic outcomes based on skillful player decisions.

Is your game combat-centric?  Then simple one-click crafting is fine (and certainly adds value over not having the system.)  The time you save from not going overboard on a side-feature (since your game is combat-centric) will allow you to to make the core feature that much stronger because you'll have time to focus on it.

 Pretty much this.  What is the purpose of crafting in this game? 

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2267

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

5/10/13 11:45:31 PM#32
Originally posted by birdycephon
Your poll is kinda fubar. Paper or plastic? Yes.

I'm a little sad it took 8 posters before someone actually read it and noticed it made no sense. Shame on you Quizzical.

  benseine

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 244

 
OP  5/11/13 9:24:22 AM#33
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Axehilt

Both.  It depends.

Is your game crafting-centric?  Then create a system elaborate enough to involve a lot of dynamic outcomes based on skillful player decisions.

Is your game combat-centric?  Then simple one-click crafting is fine (and certainly adds value over not having the system.)  The time you save from not going overboard on a side-feature (since your game is combat-centric) will allow you to to make the core feature that much stronger because you'll have time to focus on it.

 Pretty much this.  What is the purpose of crafting in this game? 

Pretty much to make everything in the game. Gear, buildings, tools etc. Here is a list of the professions they plan to add: http://i43.tinypic.com/2z8byht.jpg

  Deivos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1716

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/11/13 9:49:35 AM#34

Well I gave my suggestion on the matter before.

 

The only thing I could addendum to add is 'regulate the variety of resources'. You have ten professions there, but functionally the places all their crafting material needs to come from could be paired down to two places with a few variations within of mines and farms.

 

The breakdown being that you have 4.5 classes there working off resources that'd be common to mining, such as ores and gems.

And the other 5.5 are reliant on resources you'd be able to cultivate, like vegetables, herbs, trees, and livestock.

Engineering counts as .5 between both as it kinda needs all the resources in a much more uniform scale.

 

As one of them is Hunting and Lumberjacking, even though I put that under farming, it's a class concept that rather seems to indicate your town isn't insular in resource production or management. If that is the case, I'd say perhaps taking a poke back at the way RTS games like Age of Empires 2 did resources and incorporate some capacity to develop a transitional form of wild resource nodes and controlled ones.

 

For the crafting aspect I'd stick by my previous suggestion, but this is all just personal opinion/preference any who.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  benseine

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 244

 
OP  5/11/13 10:08:24 AM#35

Well you can easily increase the number by adding leather and cloth as resource for most armour and leather, bone and wood to most wespons and shields. Then you increase the number of places you need to go for your resources and even the number if professions needed to get all the components for the final product.

If you want a grade A final product you must either need to have all those professions at a high lvl or you need to work together to make the best gear ==> crafting guilds.

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