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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » All that money, for SWTOR?

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38 posts found
  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1586

5/08/13 10:17:29 AM#21
Originally posted by Greymoor
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Not every MMO needs to advance MMO genre. I have enjoyed Rift and SWTOR more than any so called innovative MMOS like GW2. I put more emphasis on whether i am having fun in game or not.

But yet Rift for example, did more to push forward innovation in Themepark MMO's than SWTOR with roughly 1/4 of the development costs.

So you're right, not every MMO needs to advance the genre in some way, aslong as it's a fun game. But when you make an MMO with costs that blow every other title out of the water, you'd expect something new and revolutionary. Not to the same standard or even a lesser standard (minus the well known IP) than the competing games.

I'm certain any other developer would've worked wonders with such a massive budget. Look to Archeage for an example.

Same sort of budget we're seeing for standard MMO's but they're making the most innovative MMO to hit the market in a very long time. Insane interaction with your surroundings, insane graphics, much larger scale combat, housing, massive story telling, raids, player built cities, complex economy.... more.

 

You can't help but think about SWTOR and see an empty shell?

 

 

Well SWTOR was the first fully voice-acted mmo. Is that not innovative? Also, hen you're talking about hundreds of thousands of lines of voice acting, you're going to have some associated cost with that which you wouldn't in another game.  Additionally, you're talking about a studio who probably employs developers at a higher rate per head than most indie developers. Again, not saying they're better than an indie developer, they just cost more. 

 

I do agree that Rift offered some innovation, but just because you're given hundreds of options for class choice doesn't meant that people are going to deviate wildly from 2 or 3 variants which are the most effective. Classless systems or systems with hundreds or thousands of variations could be viewed as a waste of time, too. I love optimizing my skill tree for my own gameplay style, but there are still paths which are clearly better than others, even if just marginally, so you'll wind up going that route anyway. 

 

Other than the class system, I'm not sure what massive innovations Rift really offered. I mean the idea of Rifts is also cool, and I think we're seeing more instances of random events, etc., but they didn't pioneer that idea. Shoot, I don't think they really pioneered the idea of varied classes either. Maybe it was the first time that these actually worked in a game that lasted on the market for more than a year, though. 

 

Also, you're assuming that they said, "We want to make a star wars game for as cheap as possible." No, that's not how the conversation goes. It's usually more like, "Ok, we want to make a Star Wars game and we've got a budget of $200,000,000." It doesn't really matter where the money goes, they could be having lobster lunches for all as far as we know. There is a budgeted project and milestones, and whatever it takes to get there, you do. If you don't then you get canned. They're obviously going to have to be accountable in some regard, but in the end there has already been a cost justification performed and they're going to spend that budget. I'll bet if Rift had a $200 million budget, you'd see the exact same game as it is as a $50 million game. Even a $50 million game is ridiculous when you look at Kickstarter and see projects being made for $4 million at most. Isn't it? Probably more innovative too. 

Crazkanuk

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  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1642

5/08/13 10:21:11 AM#22
OP all of your assumption depend on the first 3 words of your post being correct.
  Greymoor

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/30/10
Posts: 812

 
OP  5/08/13 10:29:53 AM#23

Fully voice acted quests/storyline adds to immersion but voice acting isn't innovative and didn't cost anywhere near $150,000,000 alone.

You're right, they wouldn't have decided to make a cheap MMO. If the conversation went, we have $200,000,000 to do this the conversation would've definately been "What will separate this MMO from other themeparks and beat WoW? We have the funding and we have a small army of developers. What can we do to really make this game something special?"

Essentially they made a voice-acted Co-op - Tiny group, multiplayer game. Not an MMO. There's nothing 'massively online' about SWTOR than BF3 or Crysis.

Where was the massive open world that Star Wars is all about? Worlds even, with virtually non-instanced travel. The technology exists for that these days and they had the money to do it.

Where was the interactive capability and the dynamic content that is do-able through todays technology? Farming, extensive crafting, object interactions, realistic weather and associated effects etc.

Where was the opportunity for massive scale battles that make the Star Wars saga? (Players not NPCs)

How did they not think about letting players make their mark in the world, housing, cities, conquest, dominion?

When the co-op story ends, why didn't they think of an epic end-game on top of instances? Politics for example, more open features.

Anyone who thinks EA didn't intend to push the envelope with this game are kidding themselves, this was supposed to be the WoW killer.

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4883

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

5/08/13 10:33:51 AM#24
Originally posted by akiira69
Its given me a game to play until CCP Games releases its next AAA MMO titled World of Darkness.

You are going to play SWTOR for 6 years ??

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

5/08/13 11:29:34 AM#25


Originally posted by Greymoor
4 man groups

16 player PvP instances

This level of graphical performance limited a $200,000,000 game to such small PvP/Group encounters?

http://www.bethanycorcoran.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/swtor-2011-12-23-07-17-26-790.jpg

 

When this game can do the same numbers...

http://cdn.overclock.net/9/91/91660d00_crysis_3_-_e3_2012_-_dambusters_-bow_attack.jpeg

 

And a game with relatively similar quality of graphics to SWTOR (better?) can do 500+ in an area

http://www.darkfallonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/media_images_1280x720/public/screenshots/UW_Skirmisher%20in%20Fahnark%20.jpg?itok=L3gTLaXI

 

$200,000,000 to make a co-op / small scale multiplayer game?


darkfall actually blows hard, though. why do we care how much SWTOR cost to make?

  Greymoor

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/30/10
Posts: 812

 
OP  5/08/13 11:33:04 AM#26
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by Greymoor
4 man groups

 

16 player PvP instances

This level of graphical performance limited a $200,000,000 game to such small PvP/Group encounters?

http://www.bethanycorcoran.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/swtor-2011-12-23-07-17-26-790.jpg

 

When this game can do the same numbers...

http://cdn.overclock.net/9/91/91660d00_crysis_3_-_e3_2012_-_dambusters_-bow_attack.jpeg

 

And a game with relatively similar quality of graphics to SWTOR (better?) can do 500+ in an area

http://www.darkfallonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/media_images_1280x720/public/screenshots/UW_Skirmisher%20in%20Fahnark%20.jpg?itok=L3gTLaXI

 

$200,000,000 to make a co-op / small scale multiplayer game?


 

darkfall actually blows hard, though.

Regardless of your opinion of the game, it's still a massive non-instanced world which can have far more people within an area. Which shows the technology exists.

800 Developers+  v.s.  40 Developers.

$200,000,000  vs  >$10,000,000

One of those games is leaps and bounds more technically superior than the other one. I'll let you guess.

Perhaps hiring too many developers who lacked the proper skills and management was a huge pitfall for SWTOR?

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

5/08/13 11:37:04 AM#27


Originally posted by The1ceQueen
OP, hopefully it was a lesson for other companies, how not to make a lifeless, boring, overly voice acted, terribly cloned mmo. It's a niche game, not everyone wants to sit through the boring dialogue for every single thing they do in a game. When you get home from work, school, whatever, most people want to play an mmorpg for the adventure, not sit through dialogue.

its not really niche compared to what the vast majority of gamers here claim they want.

KOTOR was made with the exact same philosophy so i kind of see their logic in making their mmo that same way.

SWTOR actually caters to the masses more like wow rather than being niche, even though it doesn't hold subs like wow does (what mmo does?)

  ElRenmazuo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4318

5/08/13 11:38:06 AM#28
They spent majority of the money on expensive voice actors

https://33.media.tumblr.com/262c40940b3181ade1001120dd379aaa/tumblr_nfrzn853rR1rz64nto6_r1_400.gif

  Greymoor

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/30/10
Posts: 812

 
OP  5/08/13 11:39:38 AM#29
Originally posted by tkreep
They spent majority of the money on expensive voice actors

$150,000,000 though?

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/08/13 11:45:50 AM#30
When you consider

EQ was made for 4% of that
Daoc for 1.66% of that
Eve for 2.33% of that
wow for 13.33% of that
And even EAs own war for 8% of that

It's a laughable figure.

  Instigator-Jones

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/13
Posts: 520

5/08/13 11:54:39 AM#31
I'm struck how this thread could be subtly changed; insert iPhone for SWOTOR and Android for a cheaper alternative. Now think user experience instead of gameplay, and you'll have yet another quite familiar discussion. Point being; this thread really has a similar flame-bait kind of fluidity.
  dead2soon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/11
Posts: 152

5/08/13 12:58:34 PM#32
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Greymoor
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Not every MMO needs to advance MMO genre. I have enjoyed Rift and SWTOR more than any so called innovative MMOS like GW2. I put more emphasis on whether i am having fun in game or not.

But yet Rift for example, did more to push forward innovation in Themepark MMO's than SWTOR with roughly 1/4 of the development costs.

So you're right, not every MMO needs to advance the genre in some way, aslong as it's a fun game. But when you make an MMO with costs that blow every other title out of the water, you'd expect something new and revolutionary. Not to the same standard or even a lesser standard (minus the well known IP) than the competing games.

I'm certain any other developer would've worked wonders with such a massive budget. Look to Archeage for an example.

Same sort of budget we're seeing for standard MMO's but they're making the most innovative MMO to hit the market in a very long time. Insane interaction with your surroundings, insane graphics, much larger scale combat, housing, massive story telling, raids, player built cities, complex economy.... more.

 

You can't help but think about SWTOR and see an empty shell?

 

Like what exactly? i know you gonna say 'rifts'..is that it? that is what you call pushing innovation?

Rift is indeed very wow like however the soul system is very innovative and I wish more games could copy that. Its complexity is a balancing nightmare though and player whining caused them to scale it back a bit. The character flexibility that Rift offers is pretty much unmatched. Being able to reconfigure entire raids from encounter to encounter is not something found in other games.

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 778

5/08/13 1:31:08 PM#33
Originally posted by tkreep
They spent majority of the money on expensive voice actors

That is so last month , maybe read up on your old argument ? Like maybe here :-

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/thread/381294/GDC-James-Ohlen-Voiceovers-didnt-drive-the-cost-up-it-was-getting-the-engine-to-work-right-that-drove-costs-through-the-roof.html

If you can't be bothered then no the voice acting didin't cost that much , which if you think about it , it was obviously the case , Bioware use voice actors in many games and for many years and they never pushed the cost of those games through the roof.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  Zaltark

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/06
Posts: 430

5/08/13 1:35:36 PM#34

Why does it matter how much they spent? Its a failure. We all know this already. Sure some people like it, but it flopped pretty hard on its face then cried in a corner till it went ftp.

Is it an expensive mmo? Yes.
did it change anything on the MMO scene? Not really.

  ElRenmazuo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4318

5/08/13 1:36:00 PM#35
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by tkreep
They spent majority of the money on expensive voice actors

That is so last month , maybe read up on your old argument ? Like maybe here :-

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/thread/381294/GDC-James-Ohlen-Voiceovers-didnt-drive-the-cost-up-it-was-getting-the-engine-to-work-right-that-drove-costs-through-the-roof.html

If you can't be bothered then no the voice acting didin't cost that much , which if you think about it , it was obviously the case , Bioware use voice actors in many games and for many years and they never pushed the cost of those games through the roof.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

the single player games they made dont have nearly as much voice acting in them as the mmo does. im not saying that was the only thing that was expensive but i bet it was one of the top in their budget along with the engine problems they had. And even the engine to work argument shows that they made a bad choice in picking a engine that wasnt completely developed.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/262c40940b3181ade1001120dd379aaa/tumblr_nfrzn853rR1rz64nto6_r1_400.gif

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

5/08/13 1:37:56 PM#36
I originally thought SWTOR was a horrible horrible thing for the MMORPG genre since it was a super expensive WoW clone with an IP guaranteed to get numbers.  Its failure has actually been great for the genre because since then developers don't directly set out to clone WoW (as much).

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 778

5/08/13 1:45:29 PM#37
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by BadOrb
Originally posted by tkreep
They spent majority of the money on expensive voice actors

That is so last month , maybe read up on your old argument ? Like maybe here :-

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/thread/381294/GDC-James-Ohlen-Voiceovers-didnt-drive-the-cost-up-it-was-getting-the-engine-to-work-right-that-drove-costs-through-the-roof.html

If you can't be bothered then no the voice acting didin't cost that much , which if you think about it , it was obviously the case , Bioware use voice actors in many games and for many years and they never pushed the cost of those games through the roof.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

the single player games they made dont have nearly as much voice acting in them as the mmo does. im not saying that was the only thing that was expensive but i bet it was one of the top in their budget along with the engine problems they had. And even the engine to work argument shows that they made a bad choice in picking a engine that wasnt completely developed.

Well he said the greater cost was actually the Q and A for all the multiple choices and paths within the game , the testing was very expansive and time consuming . I guess that's why Makeb ditched the player class stories for all round faction stories. Actually that ties in with what you said , there where more lines of speech to add in SWTOR than their other voice acted games , that's probably true , but not by much really.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  Amana

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 1/03/11
Posts: 2417

5/08/13 2:30:44 PM#38
This attempt at discussion is presented in a baiting manner.  Essentially, you're not asking for a discussion, you're asking people to prove you wrong. Framing it like that is why it comes off as bait. 

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