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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why the open world is immersive?

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139 posts found
  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3446

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

5/08/13 3:17:21 PM#41


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ozivois But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.  
And i would not play a game that requires me to waste 20 min "hoofing" whenever i want to run a instanced.

Oh, why would you want to eliminate what other likes when it does not impact you? You can always hoof to the instance if you want to. Just don't expect me to do that.

Choices are good.


This argument is old, And its not true.

Taking wow as the case study:

1.The implementation of a dungeon finder eventually led to the redesign of instances where by they are all connected via the groupfinder though an instance server.

No longer could you travel to your worlds instance, you traveled to the instance that resided on the server hub. If you group finder is down all your instances were down.
So like it or not your using the system. This in itself paved the way for the game to change to a lobby game.

2.Human interaction also changed, People chose the path of least resistance where they would sign up and not be bothered going to the instance 'doors' again.

If i said i want to travel to an instance i would be laughed at. travel all that way to enter a door thats the same as 'enter dungeon'.

So no. There is no choice.



TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20560

5/08/13 3:23:01 PM#42
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ozivois But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.  
And i would not play a game that requires me to waste 20 min "hoofing" whenever i want to run a instanced.

 

Oh, why would you want to eliminate what other likes when it does not impact you? You can always hoof to the instance if you want to. Just don't expect me to do that.

Choices are good.


 

This argument is old, And its not true.

Taking wow as the case study:

1.The implementation of a dungeon finder eventually led to the redesign of instances where by they are all connected via the groupfinder though an instance server.

No longer could you travel to your worlds instance, you traveled to the instance that resided on the server hub. If you group finder is down all your instances were down.
So like it or not your using the system. This in itself paved the way for the game to change to a lobby game.

2.Human interaction also changed, People chose the path of least resistance where they would sign up and not be bothered going to the instance 'doors' again.

If i said i want to travel to an instance i would be laughed at. travel all that way to enter a door thats the same as 'enter dungeon'.

So no. There is no choice.

 

1. It does not matter, from a gaming perspective, where your instance resides. You are in it with 5 others .. that is the point. And you can still walk there, and click the entrance to go to the instance. That option is still there.

2. If there is no one wants to walk with you, it is your problem, not theirs. You can still walk there if it is so "immersive". The fact that few wants to do that merely tell you that "walking 20 min" is not something others find fun and want to do. So if you have such a narrow, niche preference, you want to force everyone to walk with you? Thanks but no thank.

i don't use my entertainment to satisfy someone else's fun. i do it for my own fun.

  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

5/08/13 3:31:13 PM#43
I agree with nari.
Creation of cars didn't take away the option of walking. And anyone who says there is no choice going from one place to another is wrong.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Sulaa

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 921

5/08/13 3:36:31 PM#44
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

Playing an relatively open world mmorpg's before introduction of mass teleportation LFG tools and extremly zoned worlds was more interesting experience for me.    So I would not talk in absolutes since they may not apply to everyone.

I don't deny that people like me are in miniority though.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/08/13 3:36:59 PM#45


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ozivois But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.  
And i would not play a game that requires me to waste 20 min "hoofing" whenever i want to run a instanced.

Oh, why would you want to eliminate what other likes when it does not impact you? You can always hoof to the instance if you want to. Just don't expect me to do that.

Choices are good.




I'll second the idea that needless traveling through the world should be eliminated.

I would still not remove virtual worlds from the MMOs I've played. I might have ideas to improve the virtual worlds, or think that the MMOs should be single player games or something similar, but remove the virtual worlds themselves? No.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20560

5/08/13 3:42:43 PM#46
Originally posted by lizardbones


I would still not remove virtual worlds from the MMOs I've played. I might have ideas to improve the virtual worlds, or think that the MMOs should be single player games or something similar, but remove the virtual worlds themselves? No.

 

Some MMOs should be online MP games with lobbies, at least for me. Virtual world does not add much fun for me, in many of these games.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20560

5/08/13 3:44:48 PM#47
Originally posted by Sulaa
.

Playing an relatively open world mmorpg's before introduction of mass teleportation LFG tools and extremly zoned worlds was more interesting experience for me.    So I would not talk in absolutes since they may not apply to everyone.

I don't deny that people like me are in miniority though.

And playing those relatively open world MMORPGs before the introduction of LFG tools was way worse gaming experience for me. I don't play games for boring (to me) experiences .. and unfortunately those games are saddled with those. Requiring walking the same route a lot is one of the worst offenders.

 

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3446

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

5/08/13 3:50:44 PM#48


1. It does not matter, from a gaming perspective, where your instance resides. You are in it with 5 others .. that is the point. And you can still walk there, and click the entrance to go to the instance. That option is still there.

At one stage they had both. A local instance, and a dungeon finder one.

If ever the group finder was down, You could walk to the local instance 'the old fashoned way' and do a dungeon. And people did on this occasion. remove choice and people was choose the path of least resistance to get things done or - if there is no other choice they just do it.


2. If there is no one wants to walk with you, it is your problem, not theirs. You can still walk there if it is so "immersive". The fact that few wants to do that merely tell you that "walking 20 min" is not something others find fun and want to do. So if you have such a narrow, niche preference, you want to force everyone to walk with you? Thanks but no thank.

i don't use my entertainment to satisfy someone else's fun. i do it for my own fun.


its not my problem, its a problem with the system if you give incentives to one choice and not the other.

for example: They could of given a rewards set for 'random dungeon' and a different set for 'adventuring dungeon' which required you to make the trek there.

I have a feeling that if the rewards for the manual walk was superior then you would have a problem with that?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Sulaa

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 921

5/08/13 3:53:11 PM#49
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sulaa
.

Playing an relatively open world mmorpg's before introduction of mass teleportation LFG tools and extremly zoned worlds was more interesting experience for me.    So I would not talk in absolutes since they may not apply to everyone.

I don't deny that people like me are in miniority though.

And playing those relatively open world MMORPGs before the introduction of LFG tools was way worse gaming experience for me. I don't play games for boring (to me) experiences .. and unfortunately those games are saddled with those. Requiring walking the same route a lot is one of the worst offenders.

 

I feel the same way about highly instanced game with automatic LFG tools. I accept and even like some instanced content, but those tools and other changes that came with game concept alteration / streamlining into mmorpg's made them boring to me.

That's is one of main reasons why I don't play mmorpg's anymore. 

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/08/13 4:21:43 PM#50


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones I would still not remove virtual worlds from the MMOs I've played. I might have ideas to improve the virtual worlds, or think that the MMOs should be single player games or something similar, but remove the virtual worlds themselves? No.  
Some MMOs should be online MP games with lobbies, at least for me. Virtual world does not add much fun for me, in many of these games.



Well, I actually like virtual worlds, so it's not surprising that I would not want them to go away. That doesn't mean that I think virtual worlds just existing is enough. It has to be well thought out, even for someone like me who prefers a virtual world.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7769

Logic be damned!

5/08/13 4:28:13 PM#51
Originally posted by ZombieKen

When traveling is interesting and meaningful, it's not wasted time.

 

Travel is only interesting and meaningful the first or first couple of times.

It's the things that happen on the way from point A to B that make something fun or memorable or interesting.

There are no movies where someone gets in a car and rides without incident for 2 and a half hours to reach point X.

There are a plethora of movies where someone gets in a car and has all kinds of incidents for 2 and a half hours to reach point X.

Easy to see why.

But in a game, sometimes you just want to get from A to B as quick as possible without tripping over random adventures the whole way.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

MMO 101.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20560

5/08/13 4:56:07 PM#52
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones I would still not remove virtual worlds from the MMOs I've played. I might have ideas to improve the virtual worlds, or think that the MMOs should be single player games or something similar, but remove the virtual worlds themselves? No.  
Some MMOs should be online MP games with lobbies, at least for me. Virtual world does not add much fun for me, in many of these games.


Well, I actually like virtual worlds, so it's not surprising that I would not want them to go away. That doesn't mean that I think virtual worlds just existing is enough. It has to be well thought out, even for someone like me who prefers a virtual world.

 

That is the thing. I have never encounter a pve virtual world that i find fun. However, there are plenty of instanced content that i do.

The virtual world is just a chore i have to live with if i want the fun instances.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20560

5/08/13 4:58:14 PM#53
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by ZombieKen

When traveling is interesting and meaningful, it's not wasted time.

 

Travel is only interesting and meaningful the first or first couple of times.

It's the things that happen on the way from point A to B that make something fun or memorable or interesting.

There are no movies where someone gets in a car and rides without incident for 2 and a half hours to reach point X.

There are a plethora of movies where someone gets in a car and has all kinds of incidents for 2 and a half hours to reach point X.

Easy to see why.

But in a game, sometimes you just want to get from A to B as quick as possible without tripping over random adventures the whole way.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

MMO 101.

That .. is the point.

If incidents are fun, just skip the travel and go directly to the incidents.

It is very easy to click on the button that says 'traveling to dungeon A" ... and either you get there instantly, or drop into a random encounter saying "oh, 10 bandits stop you on the road, and now you have to deal with them".

No need for the actual travel, but capture the fun of the incidents when traveling. Many Sp games have this. MMO should have it too.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/08/13 5:08:06 PM#54
Originally posted by Sulaa

Playing an relatively open world mmorpg's before introduction of mass teleportation LFG tools and extremly zoned worlds was more interesting experience for me.    So I would not talk in absolutes since they may not apply to everyone.

I don't deny that people like me are in miniority though.

If I say "people like gifts," does that mean I'm stating, absolutely, that all people like gifts?  No, I'm merely pointing out that generally speaking people like gifts.

This easily applies to other obvious things like "people dislike having their time wasted."

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 7000

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

5/08/13 5:12:52 PM#55

Well everything the OP is saying is true,that is just reason not to play those shallow games.There is no reason "challenge" or "Loot" has to be in an instance or a RAID,you can do every single thing in a game in the open world.

FFXI is maybe the ONLY game that gets it Yes it offers instance and dungeons/caves but it also has large fights in the open or as in Besieged inside the city.

It is just poor game designers that are making everything the same,copy the other guy just because.There is no reason for an instance period in a game,it definitely is not what RPG stands for,that is more like my private solo or coop game.

 

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  Deivos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1716

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/08/13 5:15:11 PM#56

I find it curious people keep saying their time is wasted with travel, and accusing the travel alone as the reason.

 

Consider for a moment, that if a game world was designed to generate random encounters and use light narrative elements to generate one off procedural content while traveling, wouldn't that liven things up a bit?

 

Is your time still getting wasted if the quests being done have optional interactive elements stranded across the world you can happen upon to alter the conclusion?

 

Would it really be so bizarre to have a quest design that includes the element of exploration and travel as part of it? Global quests that act like a chain, leading players on a romp through the world?

 

Maybe there are large territory sections that you can run through and interact with to gain control of areas, contributing resources to a greater faction, freeing an otherwise unknown town from oppression, or otherwise.

 

Fact is a large amount of people are pez-feeders and play pez-feeders, the concept of an open world to them means space, and they haven't the foggiest sense design-wise how to use it.

 

EDIT: In short, the only reason traveling in a game world would be boring, is because it's a poorly done/static game.

 

Given most MMOs are themepark in style, it kind of figures that'd happen.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  ElRenmazuo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4318

5/08/13 5:24:50 PM#57
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Jacxolope
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

But the movie is a linear tale.

Going from encounter to encounter to encounter means you have no choice and are being led around by the nose.

The encounters come from choices thew fellowship made (was clear in the BOOKS- Not so sure about the movies) but there were decisions. Which path, who joins, etc- Even deciding to go see Tom Bombidile (not in the "movie") or Farmer maggot were part of the plot.

The "Journey" is where YOU make your choices (not have them fed to you) and the encounter is the result of those choices. Absent of the choices you just have encounters with no bearing on YOU. Nothing unique.

Choices in books and movies are planned plot written by a writer. Has nothing to do with audience choices.

And you are right .. "nothing unique" ... every single person watching the movie, or reading the book .. see the SAME choices playing out.

But the point is .. skip the boring traveling part. If encounter a spider monster is interesting ... skip to that. If you want some randomness  .. put that in. Don't ask me to walk 20 min on repeatable landscape before seeing the spider, or whatever random interesting stuff.

why do you play rpg games? lol

https://33.media.tumblr.com/262c40940b3181ade1001120dd379aaa/tumblr_nfrzn853rR1rz64nto6_r1_400.gif

  H3deon

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/13
Posts: 37

5/08/13 5:27:30 PM#58
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Ozivois

But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.

 

And i would not play a game that requires me to waste 20 min "hoofing" whenever i want to run a instanced.

Oh, why would you want to eliminate what other likes when it does not impact you? You can always hoof to the instance if you want to. Just don't expect me to do that.

Choices are good.

there is no sense in having to "hoof" for 20 minutes. but instances are a waste of space in MMOs, if that is the only thing you are going to do...or rather if instances is all you want, then it is a waste to spend time to bring the rest of the MMO world online at all.

the journey to a destination as a group, that is what make MMOs special for me, make it easy to reach a destination on your own, and it is a waste of time.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/08/13 5:41:50 PM#59
Originally posted by Deivos

I find it curious people keep saying their time is wasted with travel, and accusing the travel alone as the reason.

 Consider for a moment, that if a game world was designed to generate random encounters and use light narrative elements to generate one off procedural content while traveling, wouldn't that liven things up a bit?

 Is your time still getting wasted if the quests being done have optional interactive elements stranded across the world you can happen upon to alter the conclusion? 

Would it really be so bizarre to have a quest design that includes the element of exploration and travel as part of it? Global quests that act like a chain, leading players on a romp through the world? 

Maybe there are large territory sections that you can run through and interact with to gain control of areas, contributing resources to a greater faction, freeing an otherwise unknown town from oppression, or otherwise. 

Fact is a large amount of people are pez-feeders and play pez-feeders, the concept of an open world to them means space, and they haven't the foggiest sense design-wise how to use it. 

EDIT: In short, the only reason traveling in a game world would be boring, is because it's a poorly done/static game. 

Given most MMOs are themepark in style, it kind of figures that'd happen.

Totally isolated, that's a great solution.  When I'm soloing if you turn my travel into gameplay then the game isn't wasting my time.  Great!

But then comes the problem: I'm traveling because I want to join 5+ group members for a dungeon.  So the more gameplay and longer you make my travel, the more they're forced to sit around waiting (and the only gameplay in MMOs worse than empty travel is being forced to completely AFK waiting for someone.)

So travel directly harms the grouping experience, if there isn't an option to instantly teleport to your group.

In a singleplayer game, you could have slow travel all you want, but in a MMO setting you need group teleports or players' time is going to be wasted.

I mean I guess you could make an even more convoluted solution by giving dynamic gameplay to the stationary players too, but at that point you've spent soooo much dev effort solving a problem which is instantly solved with a group teleport system.

  Torik

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2328

5/08/13 5:45:38 PM#60
Originally posted by Deivos

I find it curious people keep saying their time is wasted with travel, and accusing the travel alone as the reason.

 

Consider for a moment, that if a game world was designed to generate random encounters and use light narrative elements to generate one off procedural content while traveling, wouldn't that liven things up a bit?

 

Is your time still getting wasted if the quests being done have optional interactive elements stranded across the world you can happen upon to alter the conclusion?

 

Would it really be so bizarre to have a quest design that includes the element of exploration and travel as part of it? Global quests that act like a chain, leading players on a romp through the world?

 

Maybe there are large territory sections that you can run through and interact with to gain control of areas, contributing resources to a greater faction, freeing an otherwise unknown town from oppression, or otherwise.

 

Fact is a large amount of people are pez-feeders and play pez-feeders, the concept of an open world to them means space, and they haven't the foggiest sense design-wise how to use it.

 

EDIT: In short, the only reason traveling in a game world would be boring, is because it's a poorly done/static game.

 

Given most MMOs are themepark in style, it kind of figures that'd happen.

 

Careful there.  You just described what many people here would consider to be a themepark game.  Quest chains that lead players from zone to zone are one of the things "old school" players seem to detest about WoW.  It's not really open world to them if you feel it in with content.

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