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  PAL-18

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 724

5/08/13 12:42:27 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

dang Frodo ,wasted 99% of his time traveling,you fool why didnt you use lfd and skip the boring traveling part.

Straight to Mt.Doom using teleport is the right way.

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

5/08/13 12:43:03 PM#22

@asmkm22

 

Agreed. Although they have added several open world raid bosses in Pandaria.

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1564

5/08/13 12:50:30 PM#23
Originally posted by asmkm22

But yeah, back in the day, it felt very much like a large world that you were a small part of.  I remember running around Dun Morogh and thinking how huge the zone felt.  The trek from Kharanos to Brewnall Village felt like a journey sometimes.  And making the climb to the top of one of the mountains where a random dwarf had a little cave to himself overlooking the valley, was just awesome.

The world feels much smaller now, partly because of the ease of travel, partly because the draw distance has increased, and partly because the maps are more efficient.

To get that feeling now you have to play games like DF, Vanguard,  ArcheAge and Age Of Wushu. They did introduce riftways to Vanguard but you can still refuse not to use them and get to your destination. Even if you use a riftways you will still have a way to travel  because the world is vast.

Roll on EQN, take me home Smed.

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/08/13 12:55:37 PM#24
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

  Jacxolope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

5/08/13 1:00:19 PM#25
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

But the movie is a linear tale.

Going from encounter to encounter to encounter means you have no choice and are being led around by the nose.

The encounters come from choices thew fellowship made (was clear in the BOOKS- Not so sure about the movies) but there were decisions. Which path, who joins, etc- Even deciding to go see Tom Bombidile (not in the "movie") or Farmer maggot were part of the plot.

The "Journey" is where YOU make your choices (not have them fed to you) and the encounter is the result of those choices. Absent of the choices you just have encounters with no bearing on YOU. Nothing unique.

EDIT: Again, this is fine if you want to experience the exact same path of the fellowship with zero input- But maybe you would like to try something different? A new strategy? Flying the Giant Eagle right into Mordor, perhaps? The BOOK or MOVIE is just a linear tale- I want choices and options or I will read the book and hear about what they" did.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/08/13 1:04:21 PM#26
Originally posted by Jacxolope
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

But the movie is a linear tale.

Going from encounter to encounter to encounter means you have no choice and are being led around by the nose.

The encounters come from choices thew fellowship made (was clear in the BOOKS- Not so sure about the movies) but there were decisions. Which path, who joins, etc- Even deciding to go see Tom Bombidile (not in the "movie") or Farmer maggot were part of the plot.

The "Journey" is where YOU make your choices (not have them fed to you) and the encounter is the result of those choices. Absent of the choices you just have encounters with no bearing on YOU. Nothing unique.

Choices in books and movies are planned plot written by a writer. Has nothing to do with audience choices.

And you are right .. "nothing unique" ... every single person watching the movie, or reading the book .. see the SAME choices playing out.

But the point is .. skip the boring traveling part. If encounter a spider monster is interesting ... skip to that. If you want some randomness  .. put that in. Don't ask me to walk 20 min on repeatable landscape before seeing the spider, or whatever random interesting stuff.

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

5/08/13 1:07:25 PM#27
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lolnik1

I will explain it on example.

I'm a 20 warrior in Wow. The world seems exciting, it's beauriful and has nice lore. So, why do I don't explore it? Simple, for what sake? I will don't find any open dungeon with dangerous monsters and the boss from which I can loot very rare item to become rich. All the challenge is in the instances, so even if I loot something worth it will be nothing after 3 lvls. So I stay in city and queque for instances. 

I'm a 20 warrior in open world mmo. Now I have only a wolf to ride on. I see a big hole in the middle of mountain. I go there, enter, but the monsters are too strong, I can't cope with them. 2 more people have arrived, because there were rumours that here is a monster which drops a very unique mount (1% chance). We clear the cave. Fight with the boss, but there isn't anything worth to loot. So, we come to the nearest village. People are talking about a raid on their village. In few minutes a dragon attacks the city. Only few people have killed him, but now I have a unique mount, and can explore the world, seeking for the adventure. 

What is better, standing in city queueing for instances and loot mounts which are useless, cuz you stay in city the whole time while not raiding/ doing instances/bg/ arenas, or the second option. I'm waiting for your opinion :).

Standing in city queuing for instances.

Much better, for me, than waiting for others to arrive ... have to listen to people yelping the raid, may miss the event if i wasn't there. so on and so forth.

 

+1

i hate waiting others to arrive in order to achieve things. the only reason anyway i want to go to open world is to pvp. i dont have any interest in any world boss drop anymore. after 1-2 times you feel its all the same. you get tired to look for a 1% chance of a rare mount drop. for me only open pvp seems to have a meaning. with full loot? even better.

i just cant play games like gw2 where you hanging around the world, being friends with the whole server.  in such a mmo open world then once again yes, i preffer staying in city queuing for instances

  Jacxolope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

5/08/13 1:09:04 PM#28
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Jacxolope
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

But the movie is a linear tale.

Going from encounter to encounter to encounter means you have no choice and are being led around by the nose.

The encounters come from choices thew fellowship made (was clear in the BOOKS- Not so sure about the movies) but there were decisions. Which path, who joins, etc- Even deciding to go see Tom Bombidile (not in the "movie") or Farmer maggot were part of the plot.

The "Journey" is where YOU make your choices (not have them fed to you) and the encounter is the result of those choices. Absent of the choices you just have encounters with no bearing on YOU. Nothing unique.

Choices in books and movies are planned plot written by a writer. Has nothing to do with audience choices.

And you are right .. "nothing unique" ... every single person watching the movie, or reading the book .. see the SAME choices playing out.

But the point is .. skip the boring traveling part. If encounter a spider monster is interesting ... skip to that. If you want some randomness  .. put that in. Don't ask me to walk 20 min on repeatable landscape before seeing the spider, or whatever random interesting stuff.

LOL- I agree in most cases.

But in an open world where travel and exploration is important- You might not even encounter a Spider. You might encounter the undead, or find a cave which hasnt been explored- etc... Those choices will play out giving you a unique experience.

But yes, in most MMO's these days the walking and following breadcrumbs is just time wasting filler since there are no choices to make, since there really is no exploration nor different ways of doing things.

BUT in an open World game every time you venture out (even on the same path) the chance of things being totally different is always there.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10571

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/08/13 1:11:34 PM#29

I'll run with the OP title since the post didn't really grab me.

An open world can create the feeling of immersion by giving the player a lot of context for what they are doing. I think it mostly gives you another slot machine that you walk through though. Traveling is putting the coins in the slot, and stumbling upon content that you've never seen, especially if there's a story to go with it is the jackpot. I think WoW lacks this kind of thing.

In Fallout, you could wander off the path of the main story line and find an entire series of quests related to a story that has absolutely nothing to do with the main storyline. It has nothing to do with your character in the game, but your character being there changes everything about what's apparently happening. If you had not walked across that story or those NPCs, you would never know about that story and the world would never be changed by your involvement in that story. It's a jackpot.

I can't think of much content like the Fallout content in games like WoW or Rift. I'm not sure about other games, but I would guess that experience is lacking in most MMOs, regardless of whether or not they are in the sandbox or theme park camps. Strangely enough, TSW has some of this, but it doesn't really have an open world.

So, there you go.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/08/13 1:11:58 PM#30
Originally posted by Manolios
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lolnik1

I will explain it on example.

I'm a 20 warrior in Wow. The world seems exciting, it's beauriful and has nice lore. So, why do I don't explore it? Simple, for what sake? I will don't find any open dungeon with dangerous monsters and the boss from which I can loot very rare item to become rich. All the challenge is in the instances, so even if I loot something worth it will be nothing after 3 lvls. So I stay in city and queque for instances. 

I'm a 20 warrior in open world mmo. Now I have only a wolf to ride on. I see a big hole in the middle of mountain. I go there, enter, but the monsters are too strong, I can't cope with them. 2 more people have arrived, because there were rumours that here is a monster which drops a very unique mount (1% chance). We clear the cave. Fight with the boss, but there isn't anything worth to loot. So, we come to the nearest village. People are talking about a raid on their village. In few minutes a dragon attacks the city. Only few people have killed him, but now I have a unique mount, and can explore the world, seeking for the adventure. 

What is better, standing in city queueing for instances and loot mounts which are useless, cuz you stay in city the whole time while not raiding/ doing instances/bg/ arenas, or the second option. I'm waiting for your opinion :).

Standing in city queuing for instances.

Much better, for me, than waiting for others to arrive ... have to listen to people yelping the raid, may miss the event if i wasn't there. so on and so forth.

 

+1

i hate waiting others to arrive in order to achieve things. the only reason anyway i want to go to open world is to pvp. i dont have any interest in any world boss drop anymore. after 1-2 times you feel its all the same. you get tired to look for a 1% chance of a rare mount drop. for me only open pvp seems to have a meaning. with full loot? even better.

i just cant play games like gw2 that you hanging around the world, being friends with the whole server.  in such a mmo open world then once again yes, i preffer staying in city queuing for instances

I totally agree. I don't think an open world adds anything much to fun that a good instance cannot, except large scale pvp like that in PS2.

Most pve content i have seen, are for limited number of players, from quests, to dungeons, to raids. You dont need an open world for any of those things.

 

  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 523

5/08/13 1:16:58 PM#31
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

If you want to be the most narrow minded gamer ever maybe. Some of us realize it's better to work for a porsche then to be content with a merry-go-round.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3267

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

5/08/13 1:20:38 PM#32

Once again, Why do people play mmorpgs when people want small encounters, instant action and 'Levels'....


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  PAL-18

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 724

5/08/13 1:20:41 PM#33
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

Welcome to the adventurers club then ,now we just need more open world games.

 

 

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/08/13 1:22:35 PM#34
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

Welcome to the adventurers club then ,now we just need more open world games.

 

 

 

Open world that allows me to fast travel instantly to interesting parts, and no walking for 20 min? Sure, sounds fun. Why not? Will it also make sure the right number of players show up? I don't want 100 players show up for the encounter and destroy the challenge and fun.

 

  PAL-18

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 724

5/08/13 1:35:30 PM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

Welcome to the adventurers club then ,now we just need more open world games.

 

 

 

Open world that allows me to fast travel instantly to interesting parts, and no walking for 20 min? Sure, sounds fun. Why not? Will it also make sure the right number of players show up? I don't want 100 players show up for the encounter and destroy the challenge and fun.

 

Like Frodo who didnt know that they get ambushed,like Boromir who did not know that they get attacked by 100 players who destroyed the challenge and fun,if your not ready for that kind of open world then we must refuse your membership,

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

5/08/13 1:36:56 PM#36
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

Theres something that you dont seem to understand,those exciting bits  would not happen if you go straight to Mt.Doom.

Those exciting parts does not happen when you sit in your city and use lfd tools.

 

You did not read carefully.

I did not say skip to Mt Doom. I said skipped to the interesting parts, which the movie did.

Welcome to the adventurers club then ,now we just need more open world games.

 

 

 

Open world that allows me to fast travel instantly to interesting parts, and no walking for 20 min? Sure, sounds fun. Why not? Will it also make sure the right number of players show up? I don't want 100 players show up for the encounter and destroy the challenge and fun.

 

 

Zeeerg!

god i love gw2 :)

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

5/08/13 1:38:40 PM#37

It's all just a matter of taste and desire of immersion. And how the game itself is designed.

Games these days are made with all the shortcuts built-in, but that's also because the game worlds and their content are not planned very well. 

Rift does it very well with transports being reasonably close to instances. The queue system for group dungeons makes it absolutely easier to do that content but also absolutely ruins the immersion.

But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.

 

  Jacxolope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

5/08/13 1:50:31 PM#38
Originally posted by Ozivois

It's all just a matter of taste and desire of immersion. And how the game itself is designed.

Games these days are made with all the shortcuts built-in, but that's also because the game worlds and their content are not planned very well. 

Rift does it very well with transports being reasonably close to instances. The queue system for group dungeons makes it absolutely easier to do that content but also absolutely ruins the immersion.

But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.

 

Games today just are not designed for an open World and only give the "illusion of being 'worlds'"

The shortcuts are because there isnt any depth to the "world" anyhow and in most cases the games could do without the 'world' and be better with a lobby (there is a discussion about this elsewhere)

Take WOW for instance since we have all probably played. What is the point of the "world" itself? Why do I need to travel through it when the world is static and cannot be changed or effected in any way? Mainly its only to find certain encounters for drops (which are in the same place always with the same drop rate)

-This is part of the debate (as I see it)- Folks often think a sandbox would be just taking the quests from WOW out and grinding mobs with no direction...Or a PVP arena gankfest.

Its going to take a game designed from the bottom up to showcase an "open World" for todays gamer to appreciate it. It will also have to let go of many archaic practices of sandbox games  (Corpse running and super harsh death penalties, unmitigated FFA PVP, etc..)- Many of those things were great back in the day but have to go- There has to be a compromise.

Non combat activities must have the same importance and relevance as combat.

CREATING UNIQUE things in the World and changing the World HAS to be part of the "open World" experience.

Unless there is a way for a player to leave his "mark" and make his choices matter- The "World" is pointless/

 

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3267

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

5/08/13 2:00:50 PM#39


Originally posted by Jacxolope

Originally posted by Ozivois It's all just a matter of taste and desire of immersion. And how the game itself is designed. Games these days are made with all the shortcuts built-in, but that's also because the game worlds and their content are not planned very well.  Rift does it very well with transports being reasonably close to instances. The queue system for group dungeons makes it absolutely easier to do that content but also absolutely ruins the immersion. But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.  
Games today just are not designed for an open World and only give the "illusion of being 'worlds'"

The shortcuts are because there isnt any depth to the "world" anyhow and in most cases the games could do without the 'world' and be better with a lobby (there is a discussion about this elsewhere)

Take WOW for instance since we have all probably played. What is the point of the "world" itself? Why do I need to travel through it when the world is static and cannot be changed or effected in any way? Mainly its only to find certain encounters for drops (which are in the same place always with the same drop rate)

-This is part of the debate (as I see it)- Folks often think a sandbox would be just taking the quests from WOW out and grinding mobs with no direction...Or a PVP arena gankfest.

Its going to take a game designed from the bottom up to showcase an "open World" for todays gamer to appreciate it. It will also have to let go of many archaic practices of sandbox games  (Corpse running and super harsh death penalties, unmitigated FFA PVP, etc..)- Many of those things were great back in the day but have to go- There has to be a compromise.

Non combat activities must have the same importance and relevance as combat.

CREATING UNIQUE things in the World and changing the World HAS to be part of the "open World" experience.

Unless there is a way for a player to leave his "mark" and make his choices matter- The "World" is pointless/

 


Nope. Pre instant teleportation wow was functional and worked.

You could go to any zone and hang out with friends or meet new people maybe even run that zones dungeon if people were looking.

You traveled to zones because of the overarching lore/story. for example you heard the stories about kael thus when your blood elf was lvl 1. Eventually you would travel multiple zones learning more about the lore (and getting side tracked by fun adventures) until you finally made it to the tempest keep.

Same with the black temple, It existed in lore and through the freedom of the open world game you could travel there and see it for yourself.


That kind of immersion and world connection is why a world is required to fully represent the scale.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

5/08/13 2:06:52 PM#40
Originally posted by Ozivois

But again, that's just an issue of preference. If it was up to me I would eliminate insta-ports for queued instances and still require players to hoof it to the dungeon entrances.

 

And i would not play a game that requires me to waste 20 min "hoofing" whenever i want to run a instanced.

Oh, why would you want to eliminate what other likes when it does not impact you? You can always hoof to the instance if you want to. Just don't expect me to do that.

Choices are good.

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