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  lolnik1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/07
Posts: 5

 
OP  5/07/13 4:01:48 PM#1

I will explain it on example.

I'm a 20 warrior in Wow. The world seems exciting, it's beauriful and has nice lore. So, why do I don't explore it? Simple, for what sake? I will don't find any open dungeon with dangerous monsters and the boss from which I can loot very rare item to become rich. All the challenge is in the instances, so even if I loot something worth it will be nothing after 3 lvls. So I stay in city and queque for instances. 

I'm a 20 warrior in open world mmo. Now I have only a wolf to ride on. I see a big hole in the middle of mountain. I go there, enter, but the monsters are too strong, I can't cope with them. 2 more people have arrived, because there were rumours that here is a monster which drops a very unique mount (1% chance). We clear the cave. Fight with the boss, but there isn't anything worth to loot. So, we come to the nearest village. People are talking about a raid on their village. In few minutes a dragon attacks the city. Only few people have killed him, but now I have a unique mount, and can explore the world, seeking for the adventure. 

What is better, standing in city queueing for instances and loot mounts which are useless, cuz you stay in city the whole time while not raiding/ doing instances/bg/ arenas, or the second option. I'm waiting for your opinion :).

  Aren_D

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 89

5/07/13 4:13:41 PM#2


Originally posted by lolnik1
I'm a 20 warrior in open world mmo. Now I have only a wolf to ride on. I see a big hole in the middle of mountain. I go there, enter, but the monsters are too strong, I can't cope with them. 2 more people have arrived, because there were rumours that here is a monster which drops a very unique mount (1% chance). We clear the cave. Fight with the boss, but there isn't anything worth to loot. So, we come to the nearest village. People are talking about a raid on their village. In few minutes a dragon attacks the city. Only few people have killed him, but now I have a unique mount, and can explore the world, seeking for the adventure. 

That's WoW Vanilla experience

All teleportations skills are best friends and worst enemys for the open world MMOs

"Don't argue with dick-heads, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19524

5/07/13 9:14:31 PM#3
Originally posted by lolnik1

I will explain it on example.

I'm a 20 warrior in Wow. The world seems exciting, it's beauriful and has nice lore. So, why do I don't explore it? Simple, for what sake? I will don't find any open dungeon with dangerous monsters and the boss from which I can loot very rare item to become rich. All the challenge is in the instances, so even if I loot something worth it will be nothing after 3 lvls. So I stay in city and queque for instances. 

I'm a 20 warrior in open world mmo. Now I have only a wolf to ride on. I see a big hole in the middle of mountain. I go there, enter, but the monsters are too strong, I can't cope with them. 2 more people have arrived, because there were rumours that here is a monster which drops a very unique mount (1% chance). We clear the cave. Fight with the boss, but there isn't anything worth to loot. So, we come to the nearest village. People are talking about a raid on their village. In few minutes a dragon attacks the city. Only few people have killed him, but now I have a unique mount, and can explore the world, seeking for the adventure. 

What is better, standing in city queueing for instances and loot mounts which are useless, cuz you stay in city the whole time while not raiding/ doing instances/bg/ arenas, or the second option. I'm waiting for your opinion :).

Standing in city queuing for instances.

Much better, for me, than waiting for others to arrive ... have to listen to people yelping the raid, may miss the event if i wasn't there. so on and so forth.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19524

5/07/13 9:15:02 PM#4
Originally posted by Aren_D

 



That's WoW Vanilla experience

All teleportations skills are best friends and worst enemys for the open world MMOs

There is a reason why open world gameplay is not that popular, except for large scale battle.

  sanshi44

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1046

5/07/13 9:23:43 PM#5
Thing i absolutly hate most in games atm are Instances, one reason why im playing darkfall unholy wars atm is that it has an open world without instances.
  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

5/07/13 9:34:23 PM#6
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aren_D

 



That's WoW Vanilla experience

All teleportations skills are best friends and worst enemys for the open world MMOs

There is a reason why open world gameplay is not that popular, except for large scale battle.

Not really. WoW was never a truly open world game. Not compared to older games. There are less open world games because they actually take thought and skill to design, instead of modern MMOs which just churn out garbage.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19524

5/08/13 11:38:19 AM#7
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aren_D

 



That's WoW Vanilla experience

All teleportations skills are best friends and worst enemys for the open world MMOs

There is a reason why open world gameplay is not that popular, except for large scale battle.

Not really. WoW was never a truly open world game. Not compared to older games. There are less open world games because they actually take thought and skill to design, instead of modern MMOs which just churn out garbage.

Garbage for you. Fun entertainment for many.

In fact, i found many games without an open world more than than those who have. My preference is different from yours.

BTW, if you think MMOs are garbage, what are you doing here? You should quit and do something else.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11429

5/08/13 11:45:14 AM#8
Originally posted by Aren_D

That's WoW Vanilla experience

All teleportations skills are best friends and worst enemys for the open world MMOs

Vanilla WOW still had mounts that you had to be glued to if you took a ride

-- no dismounting midtrip,  like being stuck in a taxicab w locked doors

 

I liked DAOCs travel system better

where you could jump off the public travel horses any time during the trip

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/08/13 11:46:10 AM#9

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

  koboldfodder

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 367

5/08/13 11:48:03 AM#10

I started MMOs on EQ Tallon Zek server, which was teams PVP server with one-item+coin loot.  Back then you had druid and wizard teleports and that was that, you had to hoof it to wherever you wanted to go.

 

Part of the fun was getting organized to get going to the zone/dungeon and then setting off.  Yeah, it would take an hour or so to get everything together but once you set off it was great fun.  Along the way, if PVP happened you had to deal with it or try to run, so grouping was essential.

 

Then once you got into the dungeon, you had to get to where you were going and then set up an EXP camp.

 

So you had no real method of fast travel, no instances, team based PVP with item loot.  And ti was great, lol.  You cannot find that in any MMO today.  Some have total item loot, but those games are just frustrating. 

 

MMOs are fail today because they have no RISK.  So the rewards don't seem rewardy.  Yea, sit in town all day with your instance finder, then get into an instance and get the same piece of loot 200 other people have, don't interact with anyone for 99% of your playing time and when you finish that dungeon run, just /quit out.  Rinse and repeat for 10 years.....sounds like a lot of fun, right?

 

Wrong.

  PAL-18

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 724

5/08/13 11:54:53 AM#11
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

dang Frodo ,wasted 99% of his time traveling,you fool why didnt you use lfd and skip the boring traveling part.

Straight to Mt.Doom using teleport is the right way.

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  User Deleted
5/08/13 11:59:17 AM#12

When traveling is interesting and meaningful, it's not wasted time.

 

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

5/08/13 12:05:00 PM#13
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

Actually the beginning of Fellowship of the ring felt like it was explaining literally every dull day and minute fo Frodo's jounrey from the shire to the tavern in Bree...I almost didn't get past that when I first read the trilogy lol.

As to the discussion.I find Open Worlds when done right in single player games very immersive ,the feeling of the world going on around you and independent of you and reacting to your actions is great.In MMORPGs not so much because the world doesn't react like that and is mostly static.

The MMORPG that came closest to pulling off an open world like sIngle player games was Ultima Online.Which to me was 70% world simulator and 30% RPG.I remember hating UO at first because it didn't deliver the RPG experience I wanted from playing the single player Ultima games.But over time I saw the ambitious vision behind trying to create a world in a multipalyer environment and came to respect it.

  ElectricWizard

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/12
Posts: 49

5/08/13 12:12:23 PM#14
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

youre missing the point... immersive gameworlds REWARDS the player for exploration and traveling around with gameplay.  If you have a world based on thematic immersion then youre filling the world with interesting events and encounters and lore elements waiting to be discovered... thats FUN. thats meaningful. thats entertaining.

but what entertains you, and bores us to tears - are gameworlds that are just filled with exp and leveling fodder. nothing interesting, just pacman pellets to be eaten and fill your time until max level. once at max level you just queue and instant teleport to the same dungeons or raids or farm areas... over and over and over. so basically what you call meaningful is repetitive content meant for currency grinds. so thats interesting to you.. not to many others.

and youre movie analogy is dumb. maybe youre expecting your MMO to interest you for only 2 hours... Immersion seeking players like ourselves hope for more. much more. Its the journey to us. Its killing the same dragon 1000909090 times to you. BIG DIFFERENCE.

  Jacxolope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

5/08/13 12:14:25 PM#15
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

See- THIS explains the complete difference in ideals as to what makes an mmoRPG.

You want to take the "quest" to destroy the ring. You want to follow the exact path as the fellowship (but only the "action" parts) and have the same experience as a million others before and after you.

I want to veer off the beaten path. Explore Mirkwood. maybe try to find the ruins of the necromancers strronghold.... Hell, maybe I want to "switch sides" and return the ring to it RIGHTFUL owner. Stab gandolf in the back- Or maybe just find the Goblin caves and spend my time exploring the labyrinth.

-Neither way is "right"- You like scripted content that is experienced in the same way for millions (or thousands) of others. I like "open" sandbox content where my adventure and story are unique... I want to discover a cave hardly anyone knows about and find what treasures await. others want the cave on a map with breadcrumbs to follow where no content is "hidden" and there is no reason to explore because to many- They just want action action action.

Which is why I cannot understand why some play RPG's.

But "fun" is in the eye of the beholder. If I want a good deep story I read BOOKs. If I want pretty colors and explosions and leet moves I watch a modern "action film"- I came to MMOs to have a virtual world to forge my desting ..MY DESTINY. Not a "destiny" which everyone else is experiencing as well since its scripted.

EDIT: I also understand why many want scripted content. it requires little imagination and creativity and just points you in the direction to go... It is far more polished and with less "down time". The "AStory" is far more epic (in an open Workld Sandbox we cannot all be the hero and save the world) but IMHO its far better in a single player game. I can be the "hero" who saves the World in a single player RPG since its "my personal experience and World"- 

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1564

5/08/13 12:20:13 PM#16
Originally posted by lolnik1

I will explain it on example.

I'm a 20 warrior in Wow. The world seems exciting, it's beauriful and has nice lore. So, why do I don't explore it? Simple, for what sake? I will don't find any open dungeon with dangerous monsters and the boss from which I can loot very rare item to become rich. All the challenge is in the instances, so even if I loot something worth it will be nothing after 3 lvls. So I stay in city and queque for instances. 

I'm a 20 warrior in open world mmo. Now I have only a wolf to ride on. I see a big hole in the middle of mountain. I go there, enter, but the monsters are too strong, I can't cope with them. 2 more people have arrived, because there were rumours that here is a monster which drops a very unique mount (1% chance). We clear the cave. Fight with the boss, but there isn't anything worth to loot. So, we come to the nearest village. People are talking about a raid on their village. In few minutes a dragon attacks the city. Only few people have killed him, but now I have a unique mount, and can explore the world, seeking for the adventure. 

What is better, standing in city queueing for instances and loot mounts which are useless, cuz you stay in city the whole time while not raiding/ doing instances/bg/ arenas, or the second option. I'm waiting for your opinion :).

And that's why i play Vanguard which has no instanced dungeons and is a totally open world. 

Hopefully Smed is true to his word with EQN.

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  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

5/08/13 12:26:00 PM#17
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aren_D

 



That's WoW Vanilla experience

All teleportations skills are best friends and worst enemys for the open world MMOs

There is a reason why open world gameplay is not that popular, except for large scale battle.

Not really. WoW was never a truly open world game. Not compared to older games. There are less open world games because they actually take thought and skill to design, instead of modern MMOs which just churn out garbage.

 Lol, so modern games take now skill or thought to design? Look, I'll get on board with some of the open world/sandbox posts, but this is a ridiculous statement.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19524

5/08/13 12:31:04 PM#18
Originally posted by PAL-18
Originally posted by Axehilt

What's better, logging in to waste 50% of your gaming time traveling, or spending 100% of your time doing the interesting meaningful things?

A game's job is to entertain: to be fun.

When a book wants to entertain it doesn't explain literally every dull day of Frodo's journey to Mordor, it skips between the interesting parts.

When a movie wants to entertain, it doesn't waste time filming literally every single minute of the protagonist's 2-hour-long car trip to New York.  It skips to the interesting part.

Immersion is fun, but doesn't justify wasting the player's time with non-gameplay.  If a game deliberately wastes players' times, players move on to other games that don't waste their time.

dang Frodo ,wasted 99% of his time traveling,you fool why didnt you use lfd and skip the boring traveling part.

Straight to Mt.Doom using teleport is the right way.

Yeah. If you notice, the movie does skip most of the boring traveling part, and go straight to the exciting bits. Don't ask me to walk 20 min before anything fun is happening.

  User Deleted
5/08/13 12:34:25 PM#19

WoW felt much more "open-world" back in Vanilla and TBC than it does now.  Not saying it was a sandbox, but the leveling experience really required you to go out and search for things to do, like quests and such.  They were there, but you weren't hand-held through the process.

Now, the game is entirely too streamlined.  You finish one quest hub, and it will naturally lead you into another quest hub, all the way until you hit max level.  Every part of the map is used for something quest related, so there's no point in exploring for the sake of exploring.  It's too efficient.

 

But yeah, back in the day, it felt very much like a large world that you were a small part of.  I remember running around Dun Morogh and thinking how huge the zone felt.  The trek from Kharanos to Brewnall Village felt like a journey sometimes.  And making the climb to the top of one of the mountains where a random dwarf had a little cave to himself overlooking the valley, was just awesome.

The world feels much smaller now, partly because of the ease of travel, partly because the draw distance has increased, and partly because the maps are more efficient.

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1564

5/08/13 12:41:32 PM#20
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Aren_D

That's WoW Vanilla experience

All teleportations skills are best friends and worst enemys for the open world MMOs

Vanilla WOW still had mounts that you had to be glued to if you took a ride

-- no dismounting midtrip,  like being stuck in a taxicab w locked doors

 

I liked DAOCs travel system better

where you could jump off the public travel horses any time during the trip

I liked jumping of the boat in EQ1 and in Vanguard you have fully controllable mounts, you can jump off any time you want. You hire a mount for 10 mins and you can fly that mount anywhere you want, their are no public travel land mounts because at level 10 you get a mount.

Vanguards travel system is the best yet IMO and that includes DAOC.

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