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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Proof of sandbox popularity?

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228 posts found
  rockin_ufo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 376

Zoraï

5/09/13 1:03:43 AM#141
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ice-vortex
EVE has a major hurdle simply because it is of the SciFi genre. Age of Wushu has a hurdle in the western markets because it is Asian fantasy. The market right now lacks a good western fantasy sandbox. It will be interesting to see just how well Everquest Next does.

Really?

Mass Effects is sci-fi and sold a lot.

Halo is sci-fi and  sold a lot.

GoW is sci-fi and sold a lot.

Heck, even TOR is sci-fi and sold a lot.

So what is the problem being sci-fi?

I think the majority of MMO players prefer fantasy. Just a guess tho.

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It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
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And nobody thinks that there just might
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  free2play

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1807

5/09/13 1:07:10 AM#142

Age of Wushu is a rebranding of a Chinese Sand box that is a decade old and while i don't have a problem with them having their moment in the sun, the game didn't really offer anything new. It came in as a sandbox and got a lot of attention just on that merit alone.

 

Sand Box MMO's are in demand. SWG proved it, Age of Wushu confirms it. The trouble being, they always seem to die a quick and horrible death because someone decided Sand Box means PvP in a do whatever the hell you want fashion and people get bullied out of them.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4826

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/13 1:16:49 AM#143
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?

pve sandbox would work just fine. 

I can only imagine

A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with...  Mmmm the excitement

If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination

Since you have an idea how much experience and imagination or lack thereof from my one post, why dont you help me out here, Ill start...

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

There, now your turn... what else is there to do?

Good for you.  Those are the big ones.  Yes all those things can, should and frequently are done in pve sandboxes.  Since you can imagine things other than a knight picking flowers, why did you state that in what was obviously a sarcastic post about pve sandboxes? 

Are you confused?

I'll add a big general one.  Every single thing you can do in every themepark MMO in the world can be done in a pve sandbox with the exception of open world pvp.

edit -with regards to what I can tell about you.  I can only tell what you write, so if you write a very limited answer to a pretty simple question it's logical to believe you are limited.

Otherwise you wouldn't have written such a pathetically stupid answer when you obviously knew there was more to do.

*Face Palm*

I was merely asking if you can think of anymore possible content a PvE sandbox could have. You didnt offer anything, plus you missed that I was comparing a PvE sandbox to a PvP sandbox NOT a PvE sandbox to a Themepark. My sarcasm in the post before was just pointing out the limits of a PvE sandbox. A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit....

and you had the nerve to ask if I was confused .. tsk tsk tsk

 

 

No.

You allready stated everything that MMO's have.  A pvp sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

And pvp.

A pve sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

 

"A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit...."

Dumbest statement in regards to sandboxes.

So yes Are you confused?

There are several pve sandbox games out there allready, no none are very successfull but most have a great deal of depth to them (depth meaning meaningfull choices).

I also wasn't comparing a pve sandbox to a themepark, I only pointed out that it can have as many features.  So name a feature besides pvp and a pve can have it.

You allready had the major points though.

So no. 

A sandbox does not need pvp.  It can have just as much "grit" without it.

Heck atitd has more meaning than most of the pvp sandboxes.

Read through these

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  marsh9799

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 101

5/09/13 10:30:04 AM#144
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Would a sandbox work for a non-PVP centric crowd?

pve sandbox would work just fine. 

I can only imagine

A knight and full plate in his garden watering his flowers and harvesting petals to decorate his house with...  Mmmm the excitement

If thats all you can imagine doing in a pve game you need more experience and a greater imagination

Since you have an idea how much experience and imagination or lack thereof from my one post, why dont you help me out here, Ill start...

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

There, now your turn... what else is there to do?

Good for you.  Those are the big ones.  Yes all those things can, should and frequently are done in pve sandboxes.  Since you can imagine things other than a knight picking flowers, why did you state that in what was obviously a sarcastic post about pve sandboxes? 

Are you confused?

I'll add a big general one.  Every single thing you can do in every themepark MMO in the world can be done in a pve sandbox with the exception of open world pvp.

edit -with regards to what I can tell about you.  I can only tell what you write, so if you write a very limited answer to a pretty simple question it's logical to believe you are limited.

Otherwise you wouldn't have written such a pathetically stupid answer when you obviously knew there was more to do.

*Face Palm*

I was merely asking if you can think of anymore possible content a PvE sandbox could have. You didnt offer anything, plus you missed that I was comparing a PvE sandbox to a PvP sandbox NOT a PvE sandbox to a Themepark. My sarcasm in the post before was just pointing out the limits of a PvE sandbox. A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit....

and you had the nerve to ask if I was confused .. tsk tsk tsk

 

 

No.

You allready stated everything that MMO's have.  A pvp sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

And pvp.

A pve sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

 

"A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit...."

Dumbest statement in regards to sandboxes.

So yes Are you confused?

There are several pve sandbox games out there allready, no none are very successfull but most have a great deal of depth to them (depth meaning meaningfull choices).

I also wasn't comparing a pve sandbox to a themepark, I only pointed out that it can have as many features.  So name a feature besides pvp and a pve can have it.

You allready had the major points though.

So no. 

A sandbox does not need pvp.  It can have just as much "grit" without it.

Heck atitd has more meaning than most of the pvp sandboxes.

Read through these

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

 

PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is. 

For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.

  WhiteLantern

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2778

5/09/13 10:32:50 AM#145

Hopefully, I'll get around to reading all of the posts here, but I would like to say that I hope this thread turns out as good as the famous "Mythical Sandbox Crowd" thread.

 

That thread was epic!

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4826

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/13 10:47:03 AM#146
Originally posted by marsh9799
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 

 

No.

You allready stated everything that MMO's have.  A pvp sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

And pvp.

A pve sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

 

"A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit...."

Dumbest statement in regards to sandboxes.

So yes Are you confused?

There are several pve sandbox games out there allready, no none are very successfull but most have a great deal of depth to them (depth meaning meaningfull choices).

I also wasn't comparing a pve sandbox to a themepark, I only pointed out that it can have as many features.  So name a feature besides pvp and a pve can have it.

You allready had the major points though.

So no. 

A sandbox does not need pvp.  It can have just as much "grit" without it.

Heck atitd has more meaning than most of the pvp sandboxes.

Read through these

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

 

PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is. 

For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.

No argument there, except for the niche part.  I think a pve focused sandbox would be more popular than a pvp focused sandbox.  However you are a right that a game that successfully melds both will be even more popular.

Pvp does do all of those things.  However pve can too:  Community events, community building projects.  Istaria had mines and dungeons that the group would build and 2 major events where the community freed races that were then playable.

So the pve doesn't have to be stellar it just has to be there, too many sandboxes just don't have content at all.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/09/13 11:02:03 AM#147
Originally posted by marsh9799
Furthermore, Occam's Razor is not a logical argument.

Nor is dicto simpliciter.

"Players love to talk about world PvP and how much they like it.  They don't."

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

5/09/13 11:14:09 AM#148
Yay semantics.
  Karahandras

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1667

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

5/09/13 11:15:38 AM#149
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?

 

\
The only two MMOs with growing subs and companies behind them are sandbox MMOs (Eve, Darkfall)
 

And Eve grew to be... only a little more than the average themepark.  And Darkfall, which just released will grow to be... a little less than the average themepark.

Developer choice - make game A sell 1-2 million on release and then drop to 50-500k players and sustain that.

                                        or Game B - sell 40-100k and raise to 50-500k and sustain that.

hahahah oh man you wish that themepark games had 500k subs. Age of Conan would DIE for that much. All of them would.

 Several do have near 500k subs.  and I said 50-500 which pretty much all of them have.

Well there's tor currently(if only because of the expansion).  What are the others?

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1566

5/09/13 11:26:39 AM#150
Originally posted by free2play

Age of Wushu is a rebranding of a Chinese Sand box that is a decade old and while i don't have a problem with them having their moment in the sun, the game didn't really offer anything new. It came in as a sandbox and got a lot of attention just on that merit alone.

 

Sand Box MMO's are in demand. SWG proved it, Age of Wushu confirms it. The trouble being, they always seem to die a quick and horrible death because someone decided Sand Box means PvP in a do whatever the hell you want fashion and people get bullied out of them.

Lol, Age Of  Wushu has 15-20million players and most of them in Asia meaning China.

Age Of Wushu hasn't attracted those players because it's a hybrid MMO it's because of what the actual game is based on wuxia, it's the actual lore that is the pull in Asia. In the west it is more of the type of game it is..ie the hybrid features of the game.

As for nothing new, really! are you kidding me?

Name another mmo with the offline system that Age Of Wushu has, nope i'm not talking about gaining XP while off line because in Age Of Wushu your character stays online as an NPC.

Name another mmo that has the kidnapping system of Age Of Wushu.

Name another mmo that has the character alteration that the castration skills brings.

Spying and patrolling system that is actually built into the game.

A whole marriage system that is also built into the game.

Dungeons that have bosses calling on actual players to fight alongside them against player trying to complete the dungeon, seriously name me another mmo that has this.

I could go on but let's start with the things i mentioned.

And remember that AOW released in China before Archeage was released anywhere but i wont mention the court system, player policing system and prison system even though the game released before ArcheAge.

Either you haven't played the game, i mean actually got passed the tutorial and played the game over a length of time or you really know nothing about the game.

If these features were in a western mmo we wouldn't hear the last of it, can you imagine the fan love if GW2 had these features lol.

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  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4826

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/09/13 11:31:00 AM#151

Well off the top of my head

Tor - 500k subs, 2 million players.

Rift - has ~300k subs

WoW - 10 million

Aion Global - has a couple million.  Don't start with the we are talking in the west crap.  They are all played on a global market, including Eve.  Eve only has about 100-200k in NA - it is global.

Thats just off the top of my head.  I'm sure others can think of many more.

For between 50-500k? virtually all of them.

for an idea just look here:

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

They are not up to date, and there are definite questions about it's accuracy but it gives an idea anway. 

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

5/09/13 12:14:10 PM#152

Gods, this debate again?

EvE is a sandobox game. Has consistantly ranked in the top 10 western MMO's for years now. Therefor a sandbox game CAN be popular... Q.E.D.

Unless ranking in the top 10 of MMO's in the western market doesn't meet your definition of popular.

If we go outside the MMO market....just look at Minecraft...again Q.E.D.

Simply being a themepark or sandbox won't make or break a game in and of itself as we have plenty of examples of unpopular games in both categories. There are thousands of different things that go into making a game what it is, sandbox and themepark are two of those and clearly both can work when put together with other things that are working.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5543

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

5/09/13 12:15:36 PM#153
Originally posted by marsh9799
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is. 

For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.

You're wrong. PvP players are a minority in almost every game out there. Open world PvP is even smaller niche even though the fans are nearly as vocal as the rest combined.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/09/13 12:24:53 PM#154


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by marsh9799

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar  
PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is.  For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.
You're wrong. PvP players are a minority in almost every game out there. Open world PvP is even smaller niche even though the fans are nearly as vocal as the rest combined.


I would go out on a limb and say that PvP RPG game play is the least popular option, whether you're talking about PvP games or RPGs. FPS death match games and MOBAs are more popular on the PvPG side of things, and PvE or PvE with secondary PvP mechanics are more popular in the RPG side of things.

If that's true (I think it is), why do sandbox developers seem so intent on doing PvP RPG style games?

** ** **

Also, I think PvP is required, but it needs to be optional or at least consensual.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  marsh9799

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 101

5/09/13 12:29:20 PM#155

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar


Originally posted by marsh9799
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 

 

No.

You allready stated everything that MMO's have.  A pvp sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

And pvp.

A pve sandbox has

Exploration

Structure creation

Fighting A.I scripts

 

"A Sandbox needs PvP or it will be all fluff and no grit...."

Dumbest statement in regards to sandboxes.

So yes Are you confused?

There are several pve sandbox games out there allready, no none are very successfull but most have a great deal of depth to them (depth meaning meaningfull choices).

I also wasn't comparing a pve sandbox to a themepark, I only pointed out that it can have as many features.  So name a feature besides pvp and a pve can have it.

You allready had the major points though.

So no. 

A sandbox does not need pvp.  It can have just as much "grit" without it.

Heck atitd has more meaning than most of the pvp sandboxes.

Read through these

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

 

PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is. 

For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.

No argument there, except for the niche part.  I think a pve focused sandbox would be more popular than a pvp focused sandbox.  However you are a right that a game that successfully melds both will be even more popular.

Pvp does do all of those things.  However pve can too:  Community events, community building projects.  Istaria had mines and dungeons that the group would build and 2 major events where the community freed races that were then playable.

So the pve doesn't have to be stellar it just has to be there, too many sandboxes just don't have content at all.

PvE only is probably going to be more popular especially given that now games do integrate PvP in ways without impacting PvE to any significant degree.  I disagree that PvE does it as effectively.  I think PvE can accomplish similar feats.  The guild structure in EQ and early WoW was a great community builder, but I think that the way games have moved recently towards more of a cooperate multiplayer game as opposed to a true MMO they're failing at it.  I also believe that an us vs. them environment does it better, but that's just opinion.

I agree with the sandboxes and lack of content.  I do think that PvE without PvP requires better content or perhaps rather significantly more content.

 

 

Originally posted by Icewhite


Originally posted by marsh9799
Furthermore, Occam's Razor is not a logical argument.

Nor is dicto simpliciter.

"Players love to talk about world PvP and how much they like it.  They don't."

It was pretty clear from what I said that it was not a universal but a specific subset of the player base that is loud and influential.  Fail again. 

  marsh9799

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/10
Posts: 101

5/09/13 12:33:23 PM#156
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by marsh9799
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

PvP definitely isn't required; however, you are cutting out a huge section of players and moving into a niche market by cutting out PvP.  PvP is very popular.  I don't know why.  It just is. 

For one, it helps create a community.  We can look at this going back before modern MMOs with Diablo 1 and the like.  There was always a coalescing of players around PKs and antis.  We saw this in UO.  Many modern MMOs try to factionize it.  There's nothing wrong with this.  If you don't have the PVP, you are going to have to have some just stellar PvE.  It's going to have to be significantly better than the competition or the game is going to have to resign itself to a small niche.

You're wrong. PvP players are a minority in almost every game out there. Open world PvP is even smaller niche even though the fans are nearly as vocal as the rest combined.

Well, that's part of what I was getting at with a prior post.  There aren't really many PvPers.  There are a lot of players who enjoy PvP.  The terms are really blurred and perhaps a better way of saying it would be there aren't that many PKers, but many players enjoy competition against other players.  A lot more players look at open world PvP and think it's cool and respond positively towards open world PvP than players who tolerate having their quest hub taken over and camped.

I don't think we're in strong disagreement here.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12278

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

5/09/13 12:40:09 PM#157
Originally posted by lizardbones

 

If that's true (I think it is), why do sandbox developers seem so intent on doing PvP RPG style games?
 

Here are some possible reasons:

- it's easy "content" for when you can't create content

- it's one of the selling points when positioning against The Man or the "lazy corporate developers"

- they have no clue how much has to actually go into the game to make the PVP RPG an engaging experience, which is evident once they are released.  Some examples: DF1, Mortal Online, Xsyon, Aerrevan, Perpetuum, Salem

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

5/09/13 4:07:27 PM#158
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Is there any proof that sandboxes are popular at all?

 

The only proof of sandboxes being popular is that every new game gets some people on mmorpg.com begging for it to become a sandbox, and the same people scoffing any game thats not a sandbox... 

 

But how popular are Sandboxes?  just wondering if someone ever somewhere did a decent poll about this?

Lets list them all off.

 

EvE Online...

TOR has as much subs as Eve, and many more free players. Do is TOR popular too? I thought it was a failure?

 

TOR's failure is based upon the insane budget that went into developing and marketing it. If I scrape together $10K to make an indie film that ends up with 100K people buying tickets to it in a theatre... most folks would judge that as pretty good success. If J.J. Abrams comes along with Paramount throwing a couple hundred million behind a film he makes and that only nets 1 million viewers most folks would say it tanked.

Resources and expectations matter when judging how well something has done.

 

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2740

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

5/09/13 4:12:10 PM#159

I prefer Non-Linear Themeparks by MMORPG.com definitions.

 

Or in the real world I enjoy PvE sandbox'es.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  User Deleted
5/09/13 5:01:03 PM#160
Sandbox = the ability to manipulate the world around you in all possible ways within a certain box (said box can be as loose as the box of physics or as constricting as an entire background with plots, intrigue, politics, etc) but one of the ways you could manipulate the world is by reducing or otherwise eliminating competition and said competition is without any doubt other players. Now the means of doing this could be direct (blade meets innards) or indirect (ex: starving the poor shmuck out of the city/area via economic means). However direct player interactions both in the negative and positive sense in however restrictive or non-restrictive the box is should not be limited in space or time, it should allow the prosecution of total war be it on a combat level or non-combat level.
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