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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » 8 Months in, how does vanilla GW2 fare compared to vanilla WoW?

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140 posts found
  nilden

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 993

5/11/13 7:00:37 AM#81
I like to compare my video games with what is available to me at the present. Cold hard reality is Guild Wars 2 and any other game has to compete with World of Warcraft and all it's expansions. Mind you I'm not saying you can't have your historical comparison but it seems to me the important part of this is what one gets now.

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  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

5/11/13 7:01:34 AM#82
@SavageHorizon : what you describe is the typical way WoW clone players who aren't used to anything else are playing Gw2. That doesn't mean it's the only way to play it, it only means that you were unable to adapt to a different game.

My computer is better than yours.

  nilden

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 993

5/11/13 7:09:36 AM#83
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
@SavageHorizon : what you describe is the typical way WoW clone players who aren't used to anything else are playing Gw2. That doesn't mean it's the only way to play it, it only means that you were unable to adapt to a different game.

Sounds like you just made a strawman and put a "You played it wrong" t-shirt on it.

How to post links.
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  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1580

5/11/13 7:12:01 AM#84
Originally posted by nilden
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
@SavageHorizon : what you describe is the typical way WoW clone players who aren't used to anything else are playing Gw2. That doesn't mean it's the only way to play it, it only means that you were unable to adapt to a different game.

Sounds like you just made a strawman and put a "You played it wrong" t-shirt on it.

Yeah lol, at least he has just confirmed what many of us have been saying.

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  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1580

5/11/13 7:13:45 AM#85
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
@SavageHorizon : what you describe is the typical way WoW clone players who aren't used to anything else are playing Gw2. That doesn't mean it's the only way to play it, it only means that you were unable to adapt to a different game.

Really! lol, why don't you come join me in Age Of Wushu.

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  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

5/11/13 7:17:58 AM#86
People accusing other to use a strawman when their own post contains absolutely no argument... Yep, makes sense.

My computer is better than yours.

  nilden

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 993

5/11/13 7:29:29 AM#87
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
People accusing other to use a strawman when their own post contains absolutely no argument... Yep, makes sense.

Thank you I am glad we agree I though it made perfect sense as well.

How to post links.
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  kabitoshin

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 731

5/11/13 7:30:55 AM#88
Vanilla WoW's content after 8 months only a handfull of guilds was doing BWL, I'm just going by my server. Only the no-lifers were 60 in the first month, most other took 2 - 3 months to level. Within the first month of GW2 even casual players were 80 and farming Orr events. Vanilla WoW will remain the most memorable time of my 11 year MMO career, but I love modern day mechanics, not soo much this dumb loby based crap that you just queue up for. Vanilla WoW to me was more about the adventure and the hardships to overcome a raid. I'm kind of anticipating FFXIV:ARR for the story and the hard PvE content that Yoshi-P has talked about in some interviews. Sorry got off topic there, but I think GW2 is holding up well compared to vanilla WoW, it's 8 months in and I'm still playing that's a good sign for me.
  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

 
OP  5/11/13 9:25:22 AM#89
Originally posted by nilden
I like to compare my video games with what is available to me at the present. Cold hard reality is Guild Wars 2 and any other game has to compete with World of Warcraft and all it's expansions. Mind you I'm not saying you can't have your historical comparison but it seems to me the important part of this is what one gets now.

Well, the unfortunate thing about a game like WoW is that, at any given time, it has nearly the same amount *content.*  Every time a new expansion is released, so much of the previous content is rendered obsolete.  Every vanilla, BC, WotlK and Cata raid are now worthless.  Almost all of the dungeons from those expansions are irrelevant - for example, people may still tend to run Hellfire Ramparts when they reach level 60, but you'll never see anyone run Mechanar, or Arcatraz; you'll also never see anyone run the heroic versions of the level 70, 80, and 85 dungeons.  The number of zones and quests is the only thing that continues to grow indefinitely; but at the same time, the amount of experience required to level through older zones continues to be nerfed so that players have no need to experience all the zones and their quests.  Not only that, but every zone's content is itself made irrelevant after you level through it.  There's never a reason to return, and nothing new ever happens.  I'd feel pretty bummed out about it as a developer, knowing so much of my hard work is useless to most players most of the time. 

I understand the desire for a present day apples to apples comparison, but I do think this is some stuff you then have to also take into consideration.  As of right now, every bit of the permanent world content remains relevant to me at level 80 - (I actually find myself spending far more time in low level zones on my 80 characters than any of the high level zones, which would have been impossible for me in WoW, and I loved zones like Ashenvale, Redridge, Elywnn and Duskwood.)  It will be interesting to see how true this holds as GW2 ages.  As of right now, I suspect I will still be able to viable play in Queensdale and Wayfarer Foothills (or any other zone I want to visit) and have a good time there 8 years from now. 

  MMOPapa

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 121

There's a reason you can't spell Deadline without the word 'dead'.

5/11/13 9:55:32 AM#90

I don't think an MMORPG that was mainly targeted towards PVP then later decided to cater more to the PVE crowd should be compared to an MMORPG that was mainly targeted towards PVE then later decided to cater more to the PVP crowd.

 

They are pretty much polar opposites.

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

 
OP  5/11/13 10:55:06 AM#91
Originally posted by Serenes
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
@serenes: you realize that link of yours proves that Gw2's world is at least as big as vanilla wow, right? Not to mention the calculation method is flawed since gw2 zones use all the space while wow continents are dented. Kryta+magma are as big as kalimdor, and shiverpreak+Ascalon as big as eastern kingdoms.

About zones being populated... As you say, mop zones, and that's it. And even then, when I leveled my dk the zones were dead empty, so I think you are slightly exaggerating.

And don't make it sound like you are forced to repeat events, that is simply not true. How shall we discuss raid bosses on farm status you kill dozens of times in Wow?

@vectrexevo: I played wow for 8 years, it's a great game, but we have enough wow clones, we don't need more. We need new concepts, not bad copies.

Umm, no that link I posted would prove that WoWs landmass would take a longer time to travel.

Guild Wars 2

crossing distance: Tyria world map from North to South 38 min by 46 min (E -> W)

= 84 minutes to travel the continent both ways North-South/East-West

World of Warcraft

size:     Kalimdor N => S coast and E=>W coast = 10 x 4 miles

Eastern Kingdoms (WoW vanilla) N => S and E => W coast = 9.5 x 3.5 miles

crossing distance: Kalimdor from N => S coast  42 min, from E => W coast 17 min

= 59+59=118(Because two continents of roughly the same size) meaning it takes a longer time to travel the distances of the continents in a straight line, meaning there is less landmass in Guild Wars 2.

I'll give you the dented zones and Guild Wars 2 using all the zone so lets cut out the "dents" in the zones and Vanilla WoW would still be larger then GW2 in landmass.

And where do you get that these zones are as big as Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdom?

The key thing you should be looking to measure is total area of all the zones, which is a simple length times width calculation.  Using your numbers, for WoW, this is 42 * 17 * 2 (for the two continents) = 1428 minutes squared (since the unit you chose to measure this in is minutes it takes to walk across the land, which I agree is the only useful way to compare one game to another.)

Using the same method, GW2 comes out to 38 * 46 = 1748 minutes squared, or 22.4% more full map area

But of course, several problems arise.  These measurements assume perfect rectangles that are filled with open space from end to end, which, of course, is not the case in either game.  Unless you can accurately account for all the "empty space" within these maps and subtract it from the total potential area, this type of comparison becomes pretty useless outside of very general estimation. 

For example, we could find that 40% of GW2's map is filled with empty, useless space, reducing GW2's total area from 1748 to 1048.8.  Meanwhile, we may find that WoW's maps were only 90% efficient, resulting in a decrease of 142.8, leaving an area of 1285.2.  In this scenario, WoW wins. 

In another scenario, however, where, say, we find both WoW and GW2 to have been 70% space efficient (30% filled with empthy nothingness), GW2 would win with an area of 1223.6 versus 999.6. 

There's also the matter of movement speed.  As movement speeds increase, the world essentially "shrinks."  Mounts, epic mounts, and eventually the introduction of epic flying mounts all made players *feel* like the world was a little smaller than it was.  One could say the same thing about waypoints in GW2, that they utterly destroy the sense of size of the world. 

While subjective feelings have no part in a quantitative statistical analysis, they are important factors to consider in the qualitative analysis.  I'm inclined to argue that how big the world feels to its players is almost more important than how big it objectively is.  A smaller area used incredibly efficiently and jam packed with content may feel much better than a gigantic barren zone. 

These are just things that need to be taken into account before anyone bends the stats in their favor and declares their champion game the winner.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

5/11/13 11:46:34 AM#92

Not bad for a non-sub game.  Of course, there are still those that cling to the idea that you can't update your game without a sub model, but most people know better by now.

As for WoW and GW2's dedication to releasing new content early on, I applaud both.  WoW?  Not so much these days.  For such a massive cash cow, they stopped adding regular content a while back, but it was the worst during Cata.

  bubaluba

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/12
Posts: 464

5/11/13 11:53:26 AM#93
I know only one thing. Give me WOW battlegrounds, raids on cities and open world pvp in GW2 and i will change the side because of awesome GW2 graphic.  I just can't find a reason to play GW2 :(, there is no real reward for leveling and pvp is meaningless
  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

5/11/13 1:39:51 PM#94
Originally posted by bubaluba
I know only one thing. Give me WOW battlegrounds, raids on cities and open world pvp in GW2 and i will change the side because of awesome GW2 graphic.  I just can't find a reason to play GW2 :(, there is no real reward for leveling and pvp is meaningless

I can take open world PvP or leave it, frankly, but I did enjoy the concept of killing the other faction's leaders.  No doubt about it.

  nilden

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 993

5/11/13 7:59:12 PM#95
Originally posted by Homitu
Originally posted by nilden
I like to compare my video games with what is available to me at the present. Cold hard reality is Guild Wars 2 and any other game has to compete with World of Warcraft and all it's expansions. Mind you I'm not saying you can't have your historical comparison but it seems to me the important part of this is what one gets now.

Well, the unfortunate thing about a game like WoW is that, at any given time, it has nearly the same amount *content.*  Every time a new expansion is released, so much of the previous content is rendered obsolete.  Every vanilla, BC, WotlK and Cata raid are now worthless.  Almost all of the dungeons from those expansions are irrelevant - for example, people may still tend to run Hellfire Ramparts when they reach level 60, but you'll never see anyone run Mechanar, or Arcatraz; you'll also never see anyone run the heroic versions of the level 70, 80, and 85 dungeons.  The number of zones and quests is the only thing that continues to grow indefinitely; but at the same time, the amount of experience required to level through older zones continues to be nerfed so that players have no need to experience all the zones and their quests.  Not only that, but every zone's content is itself made irrelevant after you level through it.  There's never a reason to return, and nothing new ever happens.  I'd feel pretty bummed out about it as a developer, knowing so much of my hard work is useless to most players most of the time. 

I understand the desire for a present day apples to apples comparison, but I do think this is some stuff you then have to also take into consideration.  As of right now, every bit of the permanent world content remains relevant to me at level 80 - (I actually find myself spending far more time in low level zones on my 80 characters than any of the high level zones, which would have been impossible for me in WoW, and I loved zones like Ashenvale, Redridge, Elywnn and Duskwood.)  It will be interesting to see how true this holds as GW2 ages.  As of right now, I suspect I will still be able to viable play in Queensdale and Wayfarer Foothills (or any other zone I want to visit) and have a good time there 8 years from now. 

Regarding obsolete content: downleveling or heroic deadmines are just work arounds for flawed design. Having levels as progression means you are going to outlevel zones, monsters, items, etc. If your level 80 those starter zones that bring you back down to level 5 are only relevant if you have not completed everything there already or need to farm to start crafting or help a friend. If you added the ability to downlevel in WoW that wouldn't make anything but the latest content relevant, sure you could go back and experience the lower level stuff at the level it was ment to be played but you also take away the ability to power through stuff for your friends.

In Ultima Online which had no levels the content never became truly obsolete. An example being if you wanted arrows you could kill harpies for feathers in the harpy dungeon and return to do so at any time.

Another game that made the levels mean very little when it came to content or grouping was City of Heroes with sidekicking, mentoring and super-sidekicking as well as upleveling and downleveling plus being able to set difficulties for missions.

 

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  1vald2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/20/12
Posts: 75

5/24/13 10:08:32 AM#96
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by bubaluba
I know only one thing. Give me WOW battlegrounds, raids on cities and open world pvp in GW2 and i will change the side because of awesome GW2 graphic.  I just can't find a reason to play GW2 :(, there is no real reward for leveling and pvp is meaningless

I can take open world PvP or leave it, frankly, but I did enjoy the concept of killing the other faction's leaders.  No doubt about it.

What I really find strange about GW2 is, how unimportant the 3 big faction become at lvl 80+. Nobody ever asks you whether you are from the Priory, Vigil or the Order. There is so much potential to create a mini-battleground type of game, like in GW: Factions with the alliance battles for Kurzick or Luxon. There could be unique rewards for players most active for a specific faction for example, Titles, "prestige" armor sets, mini pets etc.

And btw...even if I dislike WoWs cartoonish graphics nowadays, I would rather take the bad looking cape of WoW than the stupid guild flag on my back in GW2. I do understand the difficulties with a cape, especially with the Charr character models but the flag just looks utterly ridiculous.

 

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

5/24/13 10:22:40 AM#97
I feel like im watching fox news....

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

5/24/13 10:25:25 AM#98
8 Months into WoW Vanilla I was playing WoW. 8 Months into GW2, I am playing WoW. Take that for what it's worth.
  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

5/24/13 10:30:37 AM#99
Originally posted by Jimmydean
8 Months into WoW Vanilla I was playing WoW. 8 Months into GW2, I am playing WoW. Take that for what it's worth.

8 month into WoW vanilla, I was playing WoW. 8 month after GW2 was released, I have tried Pandaria, leveled my main to the new cap, canceled my two WoW accounts and went back to GW2 forever disgusted and bored of the WoW clone style stalled end game, and definitely not wanting to level another character through exactly the same areas and quests. At least previous expansions permitted variety when it came to leveling, in Pandaria it's one, linear path.

Take that for what it's worth.

My computer is better than yours.

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2676

5/24/13 10:58:49 AM#100
Originally posted by Homitu
Originally posted by Serenes
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
@serenes: you realize that link of yours proves that Gw2's world is at least as big as vanilla wow, right? Not to mention the calculation method is flawed since gw2 zones use all the space while wow continents are dented. Kryta+magma are as big as kalimdor, and shiverpreak+Ascalon as big as eastern kingdoms.

About zones being populated... As you say, mop zones, and that's it. And even then, when I leveled my dk the zones were dead empty, so I think you are slightly exaggerating.

And don't make it sound like you are forced to repeat events, that is simply not true. How shall we discuss raid bosses on farm status you kill dozens of times in Wow?

@vectrexevo: I played wow for 8 years, it's a great game, but we have enough wow clones, we don't need more. We need new concepts, not bad copies.

Umm, no that link I posted would prove that WoWs landmass would take a longer time to travel.

Guild Wars 2

crossing distance: Tyria world map from North to South 38 min by 46 min (E -> W)

= 84 minutes to travel the continent both ways North-South/East-West

World of Warcraft

size:     Kalimdor N => S coast and E=>W coast = 10 x 4 miles

Eastern Kingdoms (WoW vanilla) N => S and E => W coast = 9.5 x 3.5 miles

crossing distance: Kalimdor from N => S coast  42 min, from E => W coast 17 min

= 59+59=118(Because two continents of roughly the same size) meaning it takes a longer time to travel the distances of the continents in a straight line, meaning there is less landmass in Guild Wars 2.

I'll give you the dented zones and Guild Wars 2 using all the zone so lets cut out the "dents" in the zones and Vanilla WoW would still be larger then GW2 in landmass.

And where do you get that these zones are as big as Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdom?

The key thing you should be looking to measure is total area of all the zones, which is a simple length times width calculation.  Using your numbers, for WoW, this is 42 * 17 * 2 (for the two continents) = 1428 minutes squared (since the unit you chose to measure this in is minutes it takes to walk across the land, which I agree is the only useful way to compare one game to another.)

Using the same method, GW2 comes out to 38 * 46 = 1748 minutes squared, or 22.4% more full map area

But of course, several problems arise.  These measurements assume perfect rectangles that are filled with open space from end to end, which, of course, is not the case in either game.  Unless you can accurately account for all the "empty space" within these maps and subtract it from the total potential area, this type of comparison becomes pretty useless outside of very general estimation. 

For example, we could find that 40% of GW2's map is filled with empty, useless space, reducing GW2's total area from 1748 to 1048.8.  Meanwhile, we may find that WoW's maps were only 90% efficient, resulting in a decrease of 142.8, leaving an area of 1285.2.  In this scenario, WoW wins. 

In another scenario, however, where, say, we find both WoW and GW2 to have been 70% space efficient (30% filled with empthy nothingness), GW2 would win with an area of 1223.6 versus 999.6. 

There's also the matter of movement speed.  As movement speeds increase, the world essentially "shrinks."  Mounts, epic mounts, and eventually the introduction of epic flying mounts all made players *feel* like the world was a little smaller than it was.  One could say the same thing about waypoints in GW2, that they utterly destroy the sense of size of the world. 

While subjective feelings have no part in a quantitative statistical analysis, they are important factors to consider in the qualitative analysis.  I'm inclined to argue that how big the world feels to its players is almost more important than how big it objectively is.  A smaller area used incredibly efficiently and jam packed with content may feel much better than a gigantic barren zone. 

These are just things that need to be taken into account before anyone bends the stats in their favor and declares their champion game the winner.

When you toggle walk speed (and in an human it seems a reasonable speed humans would walk) it take ages to reach anywhere.

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

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