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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Breaking the lore

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93 posts found
  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1276

5/08/13 8:43:38 AM#41
Originally posted by tkreep
in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...

He's actually retracted that statement. Thank God!

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 658

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/08/13 8:48:46 AM#42
Originally posted by tkreep
in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...

Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".

TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.

 

It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.

  Nobadeeftw

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/11
Posts: 129

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall". -Confucius

5/08/13 9:14:17 AM#43
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by rygard49
Is this really that important?

I had this issue with Age of Conan, and necromancers/demonologists, running with pets out in Cimmeria where they would be insta gibbed.  Seeing priests of mitra killing each other in the cosmetic make up of races and classes that made aoc a video game an not an mmorpg - was frustrating. 

 

So, yes.  I believe that's why you don't use an mmorpg's name without being strict to the lore.  It's utter nonsense what happened in Age of Conan and other titles - but to the average gamer who just wants a temporary game, this matters little.

What's the difference between a video game and an MMORPG? Why would an MMO have to be held to stricter standards as far as the lore? I would think the opposite. In order to have a massive audience playing simultaneously, you have to concede certain aspects of lore to allow that. Not that this book thing is in the same vein as Priests of Mitra killing each other in AoC.

This complaint about a book being in the game at the wrong time period... This is just minutiae that very few would even notice, let alone care about.

You obviously never played SWG.  It started off as one little thing here and one little thing there.  Two years later the entire game was a lore stomping extravganza.  It was impossible for the actual roleplayers in the game to not notice all the nonsense.  This also reminds me of Star Trek online.  Sure, you could try to immerse yourself into that world; but, you're going to notice the hunderds of ships that are out of place, along with the people wearing uniforms that don't fit the time or place.  I wouldn't even know where to being with bad story telling.  It invokes the feeling of apathy in the community.  If no one else is going to bother following the established canon of an IP, why should the player care about it?

If you don't understand what roleplaying is, perhaps it's time to do some serious research.  Sure you can find people on this site debating day and night about the definition of it; but, people who roleplayed long before MMOs, they seem to be the only ones who get it.  It's difficult to immerse yourself into a world full of contradictions.  Might as well be playing mine sweeper if you want mind numbing entertainment.  That's not why MMORPGs were created though, they were an obvious improvement upon MUDs.  Since then they have evolved into a multiplayer smorgasbord, containing whatever will attract subscribers for a period of time and when that fails, they invent some other random gimmick out of desperation.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/08/13 9:17:15 AM#44
Seems a problem with mmos

War thought the lore
But the lore didn't win.
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3392

5/08/13 9:21:50 AM#45
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by tkreep
in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...

Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".

TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.

 

It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.

Unlike real life, stories change and grow. Why? Because of society changing, so what is relevant changes. Because of tech, making a superhero fly 50 years ago was not something that could be done well but now it just looks awesome. Because of many many other reasons. Sometimes its just because the writers want to take something in a new direction. Heck in the new Star Trek trailer Spock and Uhura kiss. Different time line (((shrugs))) Writers change things for many reasons and then try and find creative ways to have it make sense. ESO writers will do the same thing here with success or failure. Its the way of all stories. What really matters is the essence of TES not always the small details and sometimes even the big ones dont matter if the ends are big and rewarding enough.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4087

5/08/13 9:35:37 AM#46
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by tkreep
in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...

Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".

TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.

 

It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.

Unlike real life, stories change and grow. Why? Because of society changing, so what is relevant changes. Because of tech, making a superhero fly 50 years ago was not something that could be done well but now it just looks awesome. Because of many many other reasons. Sometimes its just because the writers want to take something in a new direction. Heck in the new Star Trek trailer Spoke and Uhura kiss. Different time line (((shrugs))) Writers change things for many reasons and then try and find creative ways to have it make sense. ESO writers will do the same thing here with success or failure. Its the way of all stories. What really matters is the essence of TES not always the small details and sometimes even the big ones dont matter if the ends are big and rewarding enough.

Today writers change things so 15 year old twilight girls would appeal to it like the whole spock and Uhura thing smh

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3771

5/08/13 10:05:07 AM#47

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

  Destai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 484

5/08/13 10:40:16 AM#48
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

Current MMOs: Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, the Secret World, World of Warcraft

Past Loves: Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3771

5/08/13 10:56:39 AM#49
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Mephala. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

Why am I not surprised that you equate your own opinion with the opinion of the "people" and you presume to know what they enjoyed, or that you equate opposite opinions with McEverything?

Thanks for giving us another example of how rigid the thinking of the self-appointed amateur lore guardians usually is.

Hopefully once you guys who constantly threaten to leave actually do, we can get on with discussing the actual game and its true virtues and faults instead of the ever so boring comparisons to your private interpretations of the "titanic IP."

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 658

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/08/13 10:57:22 AM#50
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by tkreep
in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...

Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".

TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.

 

It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.

Unlike real life, stories change and grow. Why? Because of society changing, so what is relevant changes. Because of tech, making a superhero fly 50 years ago was not something that could be done well but now it just looks awesome. Because of many many other reasons. Sometimes its just because the writers want to take something in a new direction. Heck in the new Star Trek trailer Spock and Uhura kiss. Different time line (((shrugs))) Writers change things for many reasons and then try and find creative ways to have it make sense. ESO writers will do the same thing here with success or failure. Its the way of all stories. What really matters is the essence of TES not always the small details and sometimes even the big ones dont matter if the ends are big and rewarding enough.

They are not changing the lore. They are disregarding it. Making things up from nothing. It's basically like saying that Genghis Khan raided in Asia year 1963 and died year 1090

Some of the Eras in TES are thousands of years apart. TESO will take place in the 583th year of the second era. The author of the book was imperial and born somewhere before the 427th year of the third era.

 

Just to give you some perspective. The book "The Lusty Argonian Maid" was written by Crassius in the middle of the Third Era. But the book will appear just about 800-900 years before it was written. And imperials have a lifespan of about 80-90 years. And Crassius Curio even named the main character in the play which the book is about. The main character is called Crantius Colto.

 

This is not about animation quality or available tech. They are just changing the lore out of ignorance. This is not drama. This is not a movie we are talking about. It's a game.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3392

5/08/13 11:03:30 AM#51
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 658

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/08/13 11:12:59 AM#52
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

 

But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 658

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/08/13 11:18:21 AM#53
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3392

5/08/13 11:21:53 AM#54
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

 

But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

Ya it sad when video games devolpers forget that story + game play make the best games. My fear with ESO is not so much the lore. The fact that the fix at level 50 you can goto the other factions maps and do their quests makes me wonder if the story is so watered down you wont see ESO come through. Like a land at war and devided should have stories of Highelves hating darkelves. Quests where you have to go out and take revenge for wrongs done by the other races and be the hero of your faction by saving people from wrongs. When I am in the other factions map, will I be given a quest to kill 10 NPCs of my race to turn the tide of battle? Will a widow ask me to take revenge on my race for killing her husband? Im more worried about that side of the story.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3771

5/08/13 11:25:50 AM#55
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

 

But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

You're right that Lore, back-story, context, setting...whatever you want to call it is an essential component to making the world seem more real.

However, lore is the spice that enhances the recipe--not the main ingredient.

So you've caught the developers making a silly mistake, a temporal inconsistency. Good. Tell them. They'll put it on their todo list I'm sure.

Is it enough reason to go off the deep end like the other poster above did? Not to reasonable people who know that mistakes happen. Go to any of the hundreds of websites dedicated to movie or book bloopers and you'll find that if you watch carefully enough, there is nothing that is free from mistakes.

I still remember seeing a Greyhound bus in the far background of the original Planet of the Apes movie... was it a crappy movie? Well, actually yes it was. After all it had Charlton Heston in it....but it wasn't because of the Greyhound.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3392

5/08/13 11:27:09 AM#56
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 658

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/08/13 11:37:57 AM#57
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

I think that you are generalising a lot of people. Everyone doesn't love lore, most don't even care that much.

But without the lore the game would lose its depth for everyone. Take Skyrim for example (Personally, I didn't quite like that title as much as the previous ones), Skyrim added all those words like the "Daedra" and "Eight Divines" that made everyone feel like they were in an ancient world with their own history. And without all those well established stories and lores the game wouldn't be that immersive. I've played several games where I just felt out of touch with the world because it was a new IP with very little lore. (Kingdoms of Amalur, Torchlight and even The Witcher series at times) However, games like Fallout 3 felt rich from the start because everything was very solid. The story had been solid for a very long time before it even came out under a whole different crew of devs.

 

But more often than not lore isn't that hard to implement for us that do. And lore cannot hurt the game. The game is about Molag Bal trying to get peoples souls, whether it is for slaves in Cold Harbour or not doesn't matter because it is lore friendly. But he has never tried to scheme things up. From what we've seen, most daedric lord take every chance they can at breaching the space between Mundus and their plane. Much like in Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

You're right that Lore, back-story, context, setting...whatever you want to call it is an essential component to making the world seem more real.

However, lore is the spice that enhances the recipe--not the main ingredient.

So you've caught the developers making a silly mistake, a temporal inconsistency. Good. Tell them. They'll put it on their todo list I'm sure.

Is it enough reason to go off the deep end like the other poster above did? Not to reasonable people who know that mistakes happen. Go to any of the hundreds of websites dedicated to movie or book bloopers and you'll find that if you watch carefully enough, there is nothing that is free from mistakes.

I still remember seeing a Greyhound bus in the far background of the original Planet of the Apes movie... was it a crappy movie? Well, actually yes it was. After all it had Charlton Heston in it....but it wasn't because of the Greyhound.

I have horrible memories of that film. Remember watching it when I was awfully sick. Luckily I threw up thanks to the sickness and not the film.

 

But I haven't caught them making a silly mistake. I've caught them trying to please the series newly found fans from Skyrim. I will tell the developers and hope for a proper change but I doubt it will happen. And aye, it is the spice. But it is also the "soul" of the game. It is essential for a TES title.

And honestly, back in the days the lore was actually the main ingredient of the game. Otherwise you could just have played DOOM because it had actually proper gameplay. Times change, but the lore is really important to the series. It has been worked on since Arena.

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 658

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/08/13 11:43:29 AM#58
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.

Aha! I hit a nerve, did I! Well, essentially that is what they are doing. They are messing up the lore of a Daedric prince, half of the races and most likely more than a dozen books. It's kind of like saying that Darth Vader was actually Luke and Anakin took the role of Obi Wan. Also that C3PO was the princess.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3392

5/08/13 12:02:06 PM#59
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin

Ah the memories!

This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.

And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap :)

That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.

If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore. 

Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP. 

The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones. 

Yes, maybe. But it isn't needed in TES. They are just doing it out of ignorance. What if SWToR made an expansion where the new boss is Darth Vader without any explanation other than "People know who Darth Vader is". That is not needed. That is just something they would do without any regard to the lore.

Then that would be bad writing and down right wrong. Now if the writers gave good reason why Vader was there.... well. If it broke the lore in a major way like he came back in time before Return of the Jedi and we killed him in a raid and now that movie should be rewritten. I would be upset. I can see why lore fans get upset and sometimes it gets me upset. My stand is it happens often and sometimes its bad and sometimes its well written. Needed? No but its common as spit. As my post above.... I am more worried about other areas of the ESO story then the lore. As from what I have seen. They are doing a good job of sticking close to the essance of what TES is.

Aha! I hit a nerve, did I! Well, essentially that is what they are doing. They are messing up the lore of a Daedric prince, half of the races and most likely more than a dozen books. It's kind of like saying that Darth Vader was actually Luke and Anakin took the role of Obi Wan. Also that C3PO was the princess.

I did say they would need a good reason for doing so. As I said before Star Trek has just rebooted a story that started in 1966 and people are loving it. Tell them before hand the lore changes they plan and many would be down right upset. Sometimes small changes are needed and once in a while things need to be turned on its head. Its the way of stories. Even the most epic stories get changed. Now they do so at the risk of upsetting fans but thats on them. My point still stands. This is common and myself, I wont get upset till I see its context.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

5/08/13 12:06:18 PM#60
Any other old farts have Judas Priest's Breaking the Law stuck in their heads now?
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