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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Breaking the lore

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93 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/07/13 8:10:43 AM#21
Judas priest are doing TESO soundtrack?
  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

5/07/13 8:26:03 AM#22
Originally posted by asrlohz

As a huge lore buff when it comes to The Elder Scrolls series I was rather disappointed when in the "Ask Us Anything" they revealed a couple of lore-breaking moments.

What I'd mainly like to get to I'll quote below:

 

Books have always held an important place in the lore of The Elder Scrolls, and those that increase skills are my favorite. Will we be able to find these two types of books in ESO? Will there be a sequel to "The Lusty Argonian Maid"? – By Emmanuelle Mareuil

The current plan is to have both those kinds of books in ESO – and plenty of them. We have new lore books (by the scad) and old favorites from previous TES games – including both volumes of “The Lusty Argonian Maid.”

 

Long story short, the Author of "The Lusty Argonian Maid" was imperial and was born somewhere during the third era. Whilst TESO will take place in the second era if I am not mistaken. Other than that they implied that the beastial races have an equal lifespan of the human kind which I will quote below:

 

"Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic."

 

To start with, the "Orcs" are called Orsimer and are shortlived elves. They have about half the life expectancy of the Imperial and the Breton. Most bestial races can not be expected to live as long as the "human" kind. Mer on the other hand (disregarding the Orsimer) seem to be on the spot in their answer.

 

I don't mind that they are squeezing themselves into the empty period of the second era. But they should atleast try to not break the lore like that. Maybe their Loremaster isn't indepth in their lore after all?

 

Source:

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2013/05/03/ask-us-anything-variety-pack-4

I understand your position - I really do. Please don't think otherwise.

However - on your first point - it is not unheard of to update an old classic to a current audience. The LAM story could have been updated and re-released from an older telling - so lore doesn't break with this caveat.

On your second point - fine, the age ranges appear wrong.

At the end of the day though, the lore breaks here don't destroy immersion. They are a little abrasive, depending on your sensibilities, but I don't think they make anything significant fall over.

A single book does not a game make, nor indeed an age range for various races - none of which will ever be played for long enough for it to matter.

There are larger lore-breaking issues. In truth, I was expecting a post on those before I finished reading.

These seem pretty minor.

  Akerbeltz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 152

5/07/13 8:52:56 AM#23

We are gonna dramatically alter a well-loved and deeply rooted lore and cosmogony as the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) don't really care about such nerdy things .

 

We are gonna change and castrate the mechanics and ethos of the Role Playing Genre to adapt it to a more arcade-ish format so the attention span of the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can bear it.

 

We are gonna forget about the virtual world concept and make it more of a linear, story driven experience as we don't want the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark)  to get lost a/o take decissions.

 

We are gonna make the game easy and guarantee that the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can beat all the content as he or she has paid the same money as everybody else and we don't want he or she to become frustrated

 

We are gonna change the arts and aesthetics to make them more pretty so the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can have pretty characters.

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

The video game industry - due to a very obvious commercial interest -  is fighting a particular crusade to cater all its products to the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) who, to put it in a somewhat cartoonish way, is nothing more than a guy or a gal that watches the Karsadians, eats McDonalds, dreams with becoming famous, suffers from mild anxiety, cannot concentrate while reading and the so. In other words: A functional illiterate with a slight ADHD and delusions of grandeur.

 

The logical result are bland and dull products that lack all thrill, longevity and immersion. In other words: They lack Quality.

 

But as a famous author put it: Nobody went bankrupt for underestimating the intelligence of the Americans (nowadays this can be applied to all the West).

 

Have a nice day

 

 

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

5/07/13 9:03:10 AM#24
Originally posted by Akerbeltz

We are gonna dramatically alter a well-loved and deeply rooted lore and cosmogony as the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) don't really care about such nerdy things .

We are gonna change and castrate the mechanics and ethos of the Role Playing Genre to adapt it to a more arcade-ish format so the attention span of the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can bear it.

We are gonna forget about the virtual world concept and make it more of a linear, story driven experience as we don't want the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark)  to get lost a/o take decissions.

We are gonna make the game easy and guarantee that the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can beat all the content as he or she has paid the same money as everybody else and we don't want he or she to become frustrated

We are gonna change the arts and aesthetics to make them more pretty so the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) can have pretty characters.

Etc, etc, etc.

The video game industry - due to a very obvious commercial interest -  is fighting a particular crusade to cater all its products to the "average common people that play just for fun" (registered trademark) who, to put it in a somewhat cartoonish way, is nothing more than a guy or a gal that watches the Karsadians, eats McDonalds, dreams with becoming famous, suffers from mild anxiety, cannot concentrate while reading and the so. In other words: A functional illiterate with a slight ADHD and delusions of grandeur.

The logical result are bland and dull products that lack all thrill, longevity and immersion. In other words: They lack Quality.

But as a famous author put it: Nobody went bankrupt for underestimating the intelligence of the Americans (nowadays this can be applied to all the West).

Have a nice day

That you would think such things of humanity generally is sad...

... that there are a sufficient number of human beings of the profile you describe to even partially prove your point is far more so...

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

5/07/13 9:34:47 AM#25

Time travel is confirmed as being in the game, there's a quest that lets you go back in time and depending on what you do it can affect the present (example given was the quest giver's sex changed)

If theres time travel to the past whats to prevent them having quests that take you to the future (and getting the book from there)?

  asrlohz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/07/13 12:16:29 PM#26
Originally posted by deakon

Time travel is confirmed as being in the game, there's a quest that lets you go back in time and depending on what you do it can affect the present (example given was the quest giver's sex changed)

If theres time travel to the past whats to prevent them having quests that take you to the future (and getting the book from there)?

I'd settle for that if it is a Dwemer device called the DWARDIS that they use for time travel.

  asrlohz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/07/13 12:22:17 PM#27
Originally posted by Caliburn101
 

I understand your position - I really do. Please don't think otherwise.

However - on your first point - it is not unheard of to update an old classic to a current audience. The LAM story could have been updated and re-released from an older telling - so lore doesn't break with this caveat.

On your second point - fine, the age ranges appear wrong.

At the end of the day though, the lore breaks here don't destroy immersion. They are a little abrasive, depending on your sensibilities, but I don't think they make anything significant fall over.

A single book does not a game make, nor indeed an age range for various races - none of which will ever be played for long enough for it to matter.

There are larger lore-breaking issues. In truth, I was expecting a post on those before I finished reading.

These seem pretty minor.

Well, not really. The book has been written by Crassius. It plays a major roll in the main quest of the first game. But aye. All together this is quite a silly thing to be bothered by, but if the dev team keep just "forgetting" lore like that it won't only be a spinoff, it will be an alternate universe.

 

Still, you make some fair points. It would only be a minor and temporary immersion breaker but it wouldn't kill the lore itself. However they made up a new name for Molag Bal as well. Calling him the "Lord of Schemes" or something. He is known to be one of the more blunt and shortminded Daedra. He is called "King of Rape" and "Lord of domination and slavery". That's just silly. They have been warping the lore a lot, recently.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3739

RIP City of Heroes!

5/07/13 12:22:22 PM#28
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Alverad

Yes and no.  It's not game breaking, but considering you're dealing with a well known and loved IP, showing some respect to your audience, by at the least not fiddling with things that don't negatively affect game design, would only be appropriate.  And a loremaster, well....you can hardly expect players will cheer when you twist and turn what's already been written to suit your liking, or worse, out of ignorance.  

The game has already had a fair amount of bad press, one would think, they'd be more careful on certain fronts:(

Fans can be over picky as well. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Both have a deep lore that has changed over the years to fit the now. Superman at the start could not fly and could only jump over buildings. As time went on the lore changed to fit the now and the needs. Its little changes that over time change the whole or part of any stories lore. Sometimes its needed and sometimes its not. Looking back at ESO 10 years from now... I bet it will have changed the lore a lot and fans will be nit picking over new changes quoting ESO as the new lore book. Really that big a deal?? Guess thats up to the fans. For me... (((shrugs))) At this point it seems close enough but we wont really know till we play it as a whole.

 Look at lord of the rings movies.  There were a few people so bent out of shape over minor crap.  So obsessive.

Lore should give way to gameplay.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17371

5/07/13 12:27:23 PM#29
Originally posted by waynejr2p.  So obsessive.

Lore should give way to gameplay.

Actually I don't see why gameplay can't be made fun while fitting "lore".

It seems a cop out when players start shouting "lore shoudl give to game play".

Except there really isn't ever any reason why one can't have good game play and still stick to the "facts".

I know some people don't know this but there are actual design ideas that lean toward adopting strict boundaries in order to free your decisions. I happen to agree with them.

 

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3739

RIP City of Heroes!

5/07/13 12:51:16 PM#30
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by waynejr2p.  So obsessive.

Lore should give way to gameplay.

Actually I don't see why gameplay can't be made fun while fitting "lore".

It seems a cop out when players start shouting "lore shoudl give to game play".

Except there really isn't ever any reason why one can't have good game play and still stick to the "facts".

I know some people don't know this but there are actual design ideas that lean toward adopting strict boundaries in order to free your decisions. I happen to agree with them.

 

 Well, you are reading what I said kind of off.  Lore should give way to gameplay means, when there is a conflict between them.  If they work together lore is not giving away and neither is gameplay.  Making gameplay hokey because you are deferring to lore makes bad gameplay imo.

  asrlohz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/07/13 1:10:39 PM#31
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by waynejr2p.  So obsessive.

Lore should give way to gameplay.

Actually I don't see why gameplay can't be made fun while fitting "lore".

It seems a cop out when players start shouting "lore shoudl give to game play".

Except there really isn't ever any reason why one can't have good game play and still stick to the "facts".

I know some people don't know this but there are actual design ideas that lean toward adopting strict boundaries in order to free your decisions. I happen to agree with them.

 

 Well, you are reading what I said kind of off.  Lore should give way to gameplay means, when there is a conflict between them.  If they work together lore is not giving away and neither is gameplay.  Making gameplay hokey because you are deferring to lore makes bad gameplay imo.

Let me just clarify what gameplay is. Gameplay is how the game is played, what mechanics it uses, the smoothness of the animation and the things you can do. It is the ACTIVE element of the game.

The lore on the other hand is part of the passive element of the game. Taking part behind the scenes kind of. You can immerse yourself if you'd like.

 

Quests may sometimes make references to the lore but quests are what's between the gameplay and the lore.

So the only way for gameplay to get in a conflict with lore is if you are playing in a world where magic does not exist at all. Not in the lore, not in the game. And then you suddenly add a wand that shoots fireballs and just saying "It's magic, baby!" instead of making it into a flamethrower.

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17371

5/07/13 1:22:41 PM#32
Originally posted by waynejr2

  Well, you are reading what I said kind of off.  Lore should give way to gameplay means, when there is a conflict between them.  If they work together lore is not giving away and neither is gameplay.  Making gameplay hokey because you are deferring to lore makes bad gameplay imo.

I appreciate what you are saying but I've yet to see a bit of lore that couldn't be worked with as far as game play.

I do think one of the issues is that deveopers (and possibly more the producers?) want to reach out to as many players as they can so they bastardize their IP in order to obtain that very result. Probably bendign here or there because they think "x" decision won't be considered "fun" and will turn people off.

IF an IP indicates that something is "just the way it is" It's up to the game developer to see what is interesting about that idea, capitalize on it and make it compelling.

restrictions are always a good thing because they give you a solid spine from where you can grow your ideas.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

5/07/13 1:29:39 PM#33
Perhaps you should all buy the Judas Priest song of the same name and get it in the charts as a protest?
  Vossik

Novice Member

Joined: 9/01/12
Posts: 25

5/07/13 2:00:51 PM#34
Release date is all that matters.

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1318

5/07/13 3:10:14 PM#35
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Judas priest are doing TESO soundtrack?

I lol'd irl!!

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

5/07/13 5:53:57 PM#36
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Originally posted by rygard49
Is this really that important?

To a random MMO player? NO

To a true TES fan? VERY MUCH SO 

The only reason a TES fan would want to play TESO is because it gives the same lore and (preferably as close as) the same experience as its SP counterpart.

Unfortunately as a TES fan, the more I hear and see about this MMO the less I am attracted to it.

If it is F2P I will definately take a look myself. If it is B2P I will wait for reviews. If it is P2P they are doomed already...

 

(Dear trolls, this post was my opinion and my opinion only! If you feel the need to hate please go elsewhere as your desire for a flame battle shall not be fulfilled here. Good day!)

I have to ask honestly if you think that "true" TES fans aren't also MMO players and vice versa? I don't believe they're mutually exclusive, but perhaps you do, and I'm interested to know why you think that.

You're very limiting in your opinion of what a "true" ES fan's motives would be for playing this game. It seems as if you're saying that only one iteration of the game is allowed for it to please the "true" fans, that of the first person action RPG. So another question: Do you also feel that a TES real time strategy game would be rejected by the "true" fans? Or an arcade style side-scrolling game? How about an ES themed MOBA?

Not questioning your right to express your opinion, simply trying to understand the motives behind them.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2818

5/07/13 6:01:17 PM#37
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Alverad

Yes and no.  It's not game breaking, but considering you're dealing with a well known and loved IP, showing some respect to your audience, by at the least not fiddling with things that don't negatively affect game design, would only be appropriate.  And a loremaster, well....you can hardly expect players will cheer when you twist and turn what's already been written to suit your liking, or worse, out of ignorance.  

The game has already had a fair amount of bad press, one would think, they'd be more careful on certain fronts:(

Fans can be over picky as well. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Both have a deep lore that has changed over the years to fit the now. Superman at the start could not fly and could only jump over buildings. As time went on the lore changed to fit the now and the needs. Its little changes that over time change the whole or part of any stories lore. Sometimes its needed and sometimes its not. Looking back at ESO 10 years from now... I bet it will have changed the lore a lot and fans will be nit picking over new changes quoting ESO as the new lore book. Really that big a deal?? Guess thats up to the fans. For me... (((shrugs))) At this point it seems close enough but we wont really know till we play it as a whole.

There's also a reason in the very early editions of superman that explains why he did not have all his abilities such as flight. Mainly because he refused to accept his alien heritage; in which he blanked out those memories/abilities until he met someone who trained him to unleash the powers he once had.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

5/07/13 8:12:49 PM#38
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Alverad

Yes and no.  It's not game breaking, but considering you're dealing with a well known and loved IP, showing some respect to your audience, by at the least not fiddling with things that don't negatively affect game design, would only be appropriate.  And a loremaster, well....you can hardly expect players will cheer when you twist and turn what's already been written to suit your liking, or worse, out of ignorance.  

The game has already had a fair amount of bad press, one would think, they'd be more careful on certain fronts:(

Fans can be over picky as well. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Both have a deep lore that has changed over the years to fit the now. Superman at the start could not fly and could only jump over buildings. As time went on the lore changed to fit the now and the needs. Its little changes that over time change the whole or part of any stories lore. Sometimes its needed and sometimes its not. Looking back at ESO 10 years from now... I bet it will have changed the lore a lot and fans will be nit picking over new changes quoting ESO as the new lore book. Really that big a deal?? Guess thats up to the fans. For me... (((shrugs))) At this point it seems close enough but we wont really know till we play it as a whole.

There's also a reason in the very early editions of superman that explains why he did not have all his abilities such as flight. Mainly because he refused to accept his alien heritage; in which he blanked out those memories/abilities until he met someone who trained him to unleash the powers he once had.

LOL, that was added to the lore to cover the fact he could not fly before. Thanks for proving my point. You are now quoting that like it was always the lore. Lore changes to fit the need. And one day its just the lore that is. 

 

Not saying the changes ESO has made are right or wrong. All Im saying is this is the norm of any story over time. This is not uncommon or that big a deal. Dose the fan have the right to get upset? Sure. But will it change it from happening? Nope.

  asrlohz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

 
OP  5/08/13 2:17:33 AM#39
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Originally posted by rygard49
Is this really that important?

To a random MMO player? NO

To a true TES fan? VERY MUCH SO 

The only reason a TES fan would want to play TESO is because it gives the same lore and (preferably as close as) the same experience as its SP counterpart.

Unfortunately as a TES fan, the more I hear and see about this MMO the less I am attracted to it.

If it is F2P I will definately take a look myself. If it is B2P I will wait for reviews. If it is P2P they are doomed already...

 

(Dear trolls, this post was my opinion and my opinion only! If you feel the need to hate please go elsewhere as your desire for a flame battle shall not be fulfilled here. Good day!)

I have to ask honestly if you think that "true" TES fans aren't also MMO players and vice versa? I don't believe they're mutually exclusive, but perhaps you do, and I'm interested to know why you think that.

You're very limiting in your opinion of what a "true" ES fan's motives would be for playing this game. It seems as if you're saying that only one iteration of the game is allowed for it to please the "true" fans, that of the first person action RPG. So another question: Do you also feel that a TES real time strategy game would be rejected by the "true" fans? Or an arcade style side-scrolling game? How about an ES themed MOBA?

Not questioning your right to express your opinion, simply trying to understand the motives behind them.

I don't think he is trying to say that there are no MMO players who love the TES series. I think he is trying to say that someone who loves the TES franchise wants the lore to be true to the series.

And some random MMO player who has never played the TES series (except for Skyrim, maybe) would probably not care what happened back in the previous four games.

 

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4276

5/08/13 8:33:00 AM#40
in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...
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