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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » What SWTOR really needs

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122 posts found
  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

5/15/13 12:20:23 PM#81
Originally posted by mrrshann618

 

 

Originally posted by superniceguy

SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up.

Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.

 

 

There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.

The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game.

EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

5/15/13 12:52:19 PM#82


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.

The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game.

EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it


wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol

the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20.

also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game.

most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel".

wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR.

so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

5/15/13 12:57:30 PM#83

You can't add a bloody death star. If they had them 3000 years in the past no one would be freaked when they saw it in the future.

 

As for the rest of the Sandbox elements people want added. This isn't a sandbox game, Just throwing them in would actually make the game worse because you would have a half assed Themepark and a half assed sandbox mixed togeather. Smells like fail to me. SO lets stop saying that SWTOR needs to suddenly go sandbox because it doesn't. If anything a NEW star wars game needs to come out that does that. 

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

5/15/13 2:02:09 PM#84
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.

 

The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game.

EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it


 

wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol

the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20.

also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game.

most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel".

wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR.

so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?

 

In WOW and LOTRO you are not so much directed on a set path. In LOTRO and WOW you can do most all quests from any NPC as long as you are the right level, but in SWTOR you can only do quests given to you. eg Smuggler / Commando can not get quests from Tython and Jedi can not get quests from Ord Mantell unless they have specific ones to get from there, whereas if SWTOR was like WOW or LOTRO you would be able to.

With WOW and LOTRO there is more reason to travel back to areas with lower levels, in SWTOR there is less reason to do so. WOW and LOTRO are more open, the worlds are more lifelike, and you can get side tracked with various things en route, but in SWTOR there is not much other than the quests themselves

  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

5/15/13 2:03:45 PM#85
Originally posted by Rayshe

You can't add a bloody death star. If they had them 3000 years in the past no one would be freaked when they saw it in the future.

 

As for the rest of the Sandbox elements people want added. This isn't a sandbox game, Just throwing them in would actually make the game worse because you would have a half assed Themepark and a half assed sandbox mixed togeather. Smells like fail to me. SO lets stop saying that SWTOR needs to suddenly go sandbox because it doesn't. If anything a NEW star wars game needs to come out that does that. 

SWTOR does not need to go sandbox, it just needs more features added, which every other themepark has managed to do

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

5/16/13 12:34:23 AM#86


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.   The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game. EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it
  wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20. also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game. most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel". wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR. so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?  
In WOW and LOTRO you are not so much directed on a set path. In LOTRO and WOW you can do most all quests from any NPC as long as you are the right level, but in SWTOR you can only do quests given to you. eg Smuggler / Commando can not get quests from Tython and Jedi can not get quests from Ord Mantell unless they have specific ones to get from there, whereas if SWTOR was like WOW or LOTRO you would be able to.

With WOW and LOTRO there is more reason to travel back to areas with lower levels, in SWTOR there is less reason to do so. WOW and LOTRO are more open, the worlds are more lifelike, and you can get side tracked with various things en route, but in SWTOR there is not much other than the quests themselves


none of that makes wow play less like a single player than SWTOR.

what you are talking about is linear content, that has absolutely no effect on the fact you can play wow like its a single player game just like you can in SWTOR.

look at skyrim, is that not a single player game? yet its not as linear as wow. does that make it more massive multi player? lol

also i would argue that SWTOR and its linear content is more on par with the KOTOR games which are extremely linear in the same manner.

so i kind of understand why they did that but i definitely agree its a little confined for an mmo.


  faxnadu

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 956

5/16/13 12:38:10 AM#87
Originally posted by RefMinor
A reverse NGE.

these posts again they never stop. swtor needs quit button.

and all these things OP listed its a different game. swtor ment to be shallow voice acted moviealike game wich you can personal story play thro once and thats it.

  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

5/16/13 4:57:05 AM#88
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.   The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game. EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it
  wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20. also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game. most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel". wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR. so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?  
In WOW and LOTRO you are not so much directed on a set path. In LOTRO and WOW you can do most all quests from any NPC as long as you are the right level, but in SWTOR you can only do quests given to you. eg Smuggler / Commando can not get quests from Tython and Jedi can not get quests from Ord Mantell unless they have specific ones to get from there, whereas if SWTOR was like WOW or LOTRO you would be able to.

 

With WOW and LOTRO there is more reason to travel back to areas with lower levels, in SWTOR there is less reason to do so. WOW and LOTRO are more open, the worlds are more lifelike, and you can get side tracked with various things en route, but in SWTOR there is not much other than the quests themselves


 

none of that makes wow play less like a single player than SWTOR.

what you are talking about is linear content, that has absolutely no effect on the fact you can play wow like its a single player game just like you can in SWTOR.

look at skyrim, is that not a single player game? yet its not as linear as wow. does that make it more massive multi player? lol

also i would argue that SWTOR and its linear content is more on par with the KOTOR games which are extremely linear in the same manner.

so i kind of understand why they did that but i definitely agree its a little confined for an mmo.

 

The main reason why I said it was like a single player game is because it is being updated like one - very few and far between. A single player game does get not get majorly revamped, just get content added, like what SWTOR is getting.

The other thing I forgot to say was the space game, that is pure 100% single player. When asking BW/EA if it will have multiplayer space, their response was it will not be there at launch, implying that it would come later, but there has been no signs of it, only the secret space project which is only an assumption

SWTOR feels more like a Mass Effect game than playing WOW or LOTRO. Also single player games are not all single player, they do have multiplayer modes eg Mass Effect 3, Star Trek (not STO the recently released game based on the new films). It just feels like extortion when paying for a monthly fee to this game as do not have to pay a fee for those games, and especially now with the Cartel Market where subbers are expected to pay for stuff as well when it should be free within the monthly fee eg life day items, anniversary items other MMOs give it free or put it in an event plus this latest update has caused a bit of an uproar

Basically what I was getting at is the fact it has little end game content, you play the game through from 1-50, play a bit at the end, but do not stick around much,  unlike other MMOs - this is standard play through of a single player game, whereas MMOs you play long after max level. The only thing that really keeps people playing is creating alts, but for some that is boring. In SWG you only really needed one character and there was plenty of stuff to do at max level. In STO there is plenty of stuff to do at max level. There is in other MMOs too. SWTOR has the lowest amount of stuff to do at max level. The fact that the game lost over 1.5 million subs (75% of the people who bought the game from launch) within 11 months plus the numerous articles on this site and elsewhere about this matter, proves this to be the case, and I am not the only one.  Once max level any other MMO is more worth while, and SWTORs strengths of wanting to play it just go bye bye

  Reizla

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3062

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

5/16/13 5:00:00 AM#89

All mentioned and more... When you're with the Republic of the Empire, you're not bound to stay there. You should be able to defact. Also, your light/dark side should influence more than just appearance. If you're Sith or Jedi and you're too much 'on the other side; you should even have severe negative effects.

I've made a blogpost half a year before SWTORs release that BioWare uses a too black/white (or rather light/dark :p) view on the force. You can do so much more than what SWTOR has become...

Demigoth's RPG adventures ~ My blog

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  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

5/16/13 6:02:57 AM#90
Originally posted by faxnadu
Originally posted by RefMinor
A reverse NGE.

these posts again they never stop. swtor needs quit button.

and all these things OP listed its a different game. swtor ment to be shallow voice acted moviealike game wich you can personal story play thro once and thats it.

Everything listed in the OP, is also in other active non sandbox MMOs too. The space bits are in STO and EVE, LOTRO/Rift/EQ2/Wildstar/Dragon Prophets/Phantasy Star Universe had player housing, LOTRO has player cities if you count each instance of housing as a city . CoH/DCUO had/has atmospheric flight, WOW and LOTRO have open worlds, and a lot of MMOs have day / night /weather cycles and LOTRO has varying cycles too

SWTOR should be able to get at least one of these things added, and would not expect all.

SWTOR would probably get some of the stuff, but due to mass drop in subs, they are not willing to put the money in to make this happen, which is lame. EA can easily afford this, if other companies like Perfect World can do this stuff. The MMOs that became successful did not just rely on the core game, but added features and enhanced the game over time. SWTOR is just sitting still. The time for EA to drop FULL support to the game would be at least 2 years from release, not about 6 months.

Now the game is not getting much at all

For a game that was expected to last 10 years, is very lame indeed. KOTOR probably had more people playing it longer, and had no updates, but any game with no adequate updates will die off fast, even the best ones - most people can only play through the same game so many times, but obviously some people can and it is these people that still find SWTOR enjoyable after a few months.

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

5/16/13 11:43:54 AM#91


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.   The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game. EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it
  wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20. also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game. most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel". wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR. so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?  
In WOW and LOTRO you are not so much directed on a set path. In LOTRO and WOW you can do most all quests from any NPC as long as you are the right level, but in SWTOR you can only do quests given to you. eg Smuggler / Commando can not get quests from Tython and Jedi can not get quests from Ord Mantell unless they have specific ones to get from there, whereas if SWTOR was like WOW or LOTRO you would be able to.   With WOW and LOTRO there is more reason to travel back to areas with lower levels, in SWTOR there is less reason to do so. WOW and LOTRO are more open, the worlds are more lifelike, and you can get side tracked with various things en route, but in SWTOR there is not much other than the quests themselves
  none of that makes wow play less like a single player than SWTOR. what you are talking about is linear content, that has absolutely no effect on the fact you can play wow like its a single player game just like you can in SWTOR. look at skyrim, is that not a single player game? yet its not as linear as wow. does that make it more massive multi player? lol also i would argue that SWTOR and its linear content is more on par with the KOTOR games which are extremely linear in the same manner. so i kind of understand why they did that but i definitely agree its a little confined for an mmo.  
The main reason why I said it was like a single player game is because it is being updated like one - very few and far between. A single player game does get not get majorly revamped, just get content added, like what SWTOR is getting.

The other thing I forgot to say was the space game, that is pure 100% single player. When asking BW/EA if it will have multiplayer space, their response was it will not be there at launch, implying that it would come later, but there has been no signs of it, only the secret space project which is only an assumption

SWTOR feels more like a Mass Effect game than playing WOW or LOTRO. Also single player games are not all single player, they do have multiplayer modes eg Mass Effect 3, Star Trek (not STO the recently released game based on the new films). It just feels like extortion when paying for a monthly fee to this game as do not have to pay a fee for those games, and especially now with the Cartel Market where subbers are expected to pay for stuff as well when it should be free within the monthly fee eg life day items, anniversary items other MMOs give it free or put it in an event plus this latest update has caused a bit of an uproar

Basically what I was getting at is the fact it has little end game content, you play the game through from 1-50, play a bit at the end, but do not stick around much,  unlike other MMOs - this is standard play through of a single player game, whereas MMOs you play long after max level. The only thing that really keeps people playing is creating alts, but for some that is boring. In SWG you only really needed one character and there was plenty of stuff to do at max level. In STO there is plenty of stuff to do at max level. There is in other MMOs too. SWTOR has the lowest amount of stuff to do at max level. The fact that the game lost over 1.5 million subs (75% of the people who bought the game from launch) within 11 months plus the numerous articles on this site and elsewhere about this matter, proves this to be the case, and I am not the only one.  Once max level any other MMO is more worth while, and SWTORs strengths of wanting to play it just go bye bye


well compared to wow right now yeah there isn't as much end game content.

but if you remember, after wow first came out there wasn't a lot of end game content either.

i think it was BW's every intention to come out with all this new content, because they thought they would get paid like wow did.

they are also spending a lot of time on their cartel market crap to make the game profitable for them, something wow didn't have an issue with.

as far as the space combat goes, its a mini game. just like fishing or those harpoon type quests in wow (for example)

mini games like that are not supposed to be muliplayer, even though i do think it would be cool to see swtor with full blown free roam space content.

you still don't see wow with anything like that other than under water content i guess.

but still, even if wow didn't have under water content, would it be any less of an mmo and more of a single player game? no, not in my opinion.

i get what you are saying that swtor lacks in its mmo features and end game is lackluster, i agree with you.

but it really doesn't play any more like a single player game than most the other themeparks that are similar to wow.

they all play like a single player game to me with their more scripted content more like a single player.

like i said, wow was the game to introduce that type of single player content to the mmo genre.

  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

5/16/13 12:06:45 PM#92
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.   The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game. EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it
  wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20. also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game. most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel". wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR. so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?  
In WOW and LOTRO you are not so much directed on a set path. In LOTRO and WOW you can do most all quests from any NPC as long as you are the right level, but in SWTOR you can only do quests given to you. eg Smuggler / Commando can not get quests from Tython and Jedi can not get quests from Ord Mantell unless they have specific ones to get from there, whereas if SWTOR was like WOW or LOTRO you would be able to.   With WOW and LOTRO there is more reason to travel back to areas with lower levels, in SWTOR there is less reason to do so. WOW and LOTRO are more open, the worlds are more lifelike, and you can get side tracked with various things en route, but in SWTOR there is not much other than the quests themselves
  none of that makes wow play less like a single player than SWTOR. what you are talking about is linear content, that has absolutely no effect on the fact you can play wow like its a single player game just like you can in SWTOR. look at skyrim, is that not a single player game? yet its not as linear as wow. does that make it more massive multi player? lol also i would argue that SWTOR and its linear content is more on par with the KOTOR games which are extremely linear in the same manner. so i kind of understand why they did that but i definitely agree its a little confined for an mmo.  
The main reason why I said it was like a single player game is because it is being updated like one - very few and far between. A single player game does get not get majorly revamped, just get content added, like what SWTOR is getting.

 

The other thing I forgot to say was the space game, that is pure 100% single player. When asking BW/EA if it will have multiplayer space, their response was it will not be there at launch, implying that it would come later, but there has been no signs of it, only the secret space project which is only an assumption

SWTOR feels more like a Mass Effect game than playing WOW or LOTRO. Also single player games are not all single player, they do have multiplayer modes eg Mass Effect 3, Star Trek (not STO the recently released game based on the new films). It just feels like extortion when paying for a monthly fee to this game as do not have to pay a fee for those games, and especially now with the Cartel Market where subbers are expected to pay for stuff as well when it should be free within the monthly fee eg life day items, anniversary items other MMOs give it free or put it in an event plus this latest update has caused a bit of an uproar

Basically what I was getting at is the fact it has little end game content, you play the game through from 1-50, play a bit at the end, but do not stick around much,  unlike other MMOs - this is standard play through of a single player game, whereas MMOs you play long after max level. The only thing that really keeps people playing is creating alts, but for some that is boring. In SWG you only really needed one character and there was plenty of stuff to do at max level. In STO there is plenty of stuff to do at max level. There is in other MMOs too. SWTOR has the lowest amount of stuff to do at max level. The fact that the game lost over 1.5 million subs (75% of the people who bought the game from launch) within 11 months plus the numerous articles on this site and elsewhere about this matter, proves this to be the case, and I am not the only one.  Once max level any other MMO is more worth while, and SWTORs strengths of wanting to play it just go bye bye


 

well compared to wow right now yeah there isn't as much end game content.

but if you remember, after wow first came out there wasn't a lot of end game content either.

i think it was BW's every intention to come out with all this new content, because they thought they would get paid like wow did.

they are also spending a lot of time on their cartel market crap to make the game profitable for them, something wow didn't have an issue with.

as far as the space combat goes, its a mini game. just like fishing or those harpoon type quests in wow (for example)

mini games like that are not supposed to be muliplayer, even though i do think it would be cool to see swtor with full blown free roam space content.

you still don't see wow with anything like that other than under water content i guess.

but still, even if wow didn't have under water content, would it be any less of an mmo and more of a single player game? no, not in my opinion.

i get what you are saying that swtor lacks in its mmo features and end game is lackluster, i agree with you.

but it really doesn't play any more like a single player game than most the other themeparks that are similar to wow.

they all play like a single player game to me with their more scripted content more like a single player.

like i said, wow was the game to introduce that type of single player content to the mmo genre.

There is zero single player feel in WOW. They may have made it easier to solo, and make more accessible, but is a MMO full and proper, developed with a multiplayer mindset

SWTORs stories are designed around a single player, as you get lines in the cut scene, that say "Get him! He is only one person!" even when you are grouped with other(s) it still says that. Plus it is very hard to enjoy the game with others as they seldom want to view the cut scene (although I agree if I have already done that quest and viewed it), so it is rare to get a group of people all who want to enjoy or ignore the cut scenes. Cut scenes are best enjoyed  by yourself. TSW suffers this a bit but at least it went B2P where it deserves. If SWTOR went B2P (and removing all restrictions) turning it into a game like ME3 I would view it in higher regard and may even play it from time to time, but the monthly fee and the restrictions as is are a major turn off

If they want their subs and their Cartel money then they NEED to do MORE to the game. SWTORs philosophy seems to be pay more play less, whereas other MMOs are play more pay less

Space being a mini game is just an excuse, as I said they implied it would go multiplayer after launch. Fishing is a mini game, but space in Star Wars is part of the game.  The space in Star Wars is more than a mini game, as you kit out and upgrade your ship, but it is single player

  keithian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 3039

5/16/13 12:52:07 PM#93
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.   The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game. EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it
  wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20. also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game. most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel". wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR. so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?  
In WOW and LOTRO you are not so much directed on a set path. In LOTRO and WOW you can do most all quests from any NPC as long as you are the right level, but in SWTOR you can only do quests given to you. eg Smuggler / Commando can not get quests from Tython and Jedi can not get quests from Ord Mantell unless they have specific ones to get from there, whereas if SWTOR was like WOW or LOTRO you would be able to.   With WOW and LOTRO there is more reason to travel back to areas with lower levels, in SWTOR there is less reason to do so. WOW and LOTRO are more open, the worlds are more lifelike, and you can get side tracked with various things en route, but in SWTOR there is not much other than the quests themselves
  none of that makes wow play less like a single player than SWTOR. what you are talking about is linear content, that has absolutely no effect on the fact you can play wow like its a single player game just like you can in SWTOR. look at skyrim, is that not a single player game? yet its not as linear as wow. does that make it more massive multi player? lol also i would argue that SWTOR and its linear content is more on par with the KOTOR games which are extremely linear in the same manner. so i kind of understand why they did that but i definitely agree its a little confined for an mmo.  
The main reason why I said it was like a single player game is because it is being updated like one - very few and far between. A single player game does get not get majorly revamped, just get content added, like what SWTOR is getting.

 

The other thing I forgot to say was the space game, that is pure 100% single player. When asking BW/EA if it will have multiplayer space, their response was it will not be there at launch, implying that it would come later, but there has been no signs of it, only the secret space project which is only an assumption

SWTOR feels more like a Mass Effect game than playing WOW or LOTRO. Also single player games are not all single player, they do have multiplayer modes eg Mass Effect 3, Star Trek (not STO the recently released game based on the new films). It just feels like extortion when paying for a monthly fee to this game as do not have to pay a fee for those games, and especially now with the Cartel Market where subbers are expected to pay for stuff as well when it should be free within the monthly fee eg life day items, anniversary items other MMOs give it free or put it in an event plus this latest update has caused a bit of an uproar

Basically what I was getting at is the fact it has little end game content, you play the game through from 1-50, play a bit at the end, but do not stick around much,  unlike other MMOs - this is standard play through of a single player game, whereas MMOs you play long after max level. The only thing that really keeps people playing is creating alts, but for some that is boring. In SWG you only really needed one character and there was plenty of stuff to do at max level. In STO there is plenty of stuff to do at max level. There is in other MMOs too. SWTOR has the lowest amount of stuff to do at max level. The fact that the game lost over 1.5 million subs (75% of the people who bought the game from launch) within 11 months plus the numerous articles on this site and elsewhere about this matter, proves this to be the case, and I am not the only one.  Once max level any other MMO is more worth while, and SWTORs strengths of wanting to play it just go bye bye


 

well compared to wow right now yeah there isn't as much end game content.

but if you remember, after wow first came out there wasn't a lot of end game content either.

i think it was BW's every intention to come out with all this new content, because they thought they would get paid like wow did.

they are also spending a lot of time on their cartel market crap to make the game profitable for them, something wow didn't have an issue with.

as far as the space combat goes, its a mini game. just like fishing or those harpoon type quests in wow (for example)

mini games like that are not supposed to be muliplayer, even though i do think it would be cool to see swtor with full blown free roam space content.

you still don't see wow with anything like that other than under water content i guess.

but still, even if wow didn't have under water content, would it be any less of an mmo and more of a single player game? no, not in my opinion.

i get what you are saying that swtor lacks in its mmo features and end game is lackluster, i agree with you.

but it really doesn't play any more like a single player game than most the other themeparks that are similar to wow.

they all play like a single player game to me with their more scripted content more like a single player.

like i said, wow was the game to introduce that type of single player content to the mmo genre.

There is zero single player feel in WOW. 

As someone who loved WOW for several years with that being the only game that I played more than 1 full year non stop, you just lost any credibility. I do agree however that SWTOR feels even more single player than WOW, but they BOTH have a single player feel for 95%+ of the content.

There Is Always Hope!

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

5/16/13 1:14:01 PM#94


Originally posted by superniceguy
There is zero single player feel in WOW. They may have made it easier to solo, and make more accessible, but is a MMO full and proper, developed with a multiplayer mindset

SWTORs stories are designed around a single player, as you get lines in the cut scene, that say "Get him! He is only one person!" even when you are grouped with other(s) it still says that. Plus it is very hard to enjoy the game with others as they seldom want to view the cut scene (although I agree if I have already done that quest and viewed it), so it is rare to get a group of people all who want to enjoy or ignore the cut scenes. Cut scenes are best enjoyed  by yourself. TSW suffers this a bit but at least it went B2P where it deserves. If SWTOR went B2P (and removing all restrictions) turning it into a game like ME3 I would view it in higher regard and may even play it from time to time, but the monthly fee and the restrictions as is are a major turn off

If they want their subs and their Cartel money then they NEED to do MORE to the game. SWTORs philosophy seems to be pay more play less, whereas other MMOs are play more pay less

Space being a mini game is just an excuse, as I said they implied it would go multiplayer after launch. Fishing is a mini game, but space in Star Wars is part of the game.  The space in Star Wars is more than a mini game, as you kit out and upgrade your ship, but it is single player


i couldn't disagree more. wow absolutely plays more like a single player game than traditional mmo's do.

the mechanics in wow assures it. its actually more beneficial to not group in wow as it is to solo when "questing"

the fact that it introduced the questing leveling style is a feature similar more to single player games than it is trditional mmo's.

being more of an open world and not having cut scenes makes no difference, its still the same damn thing except instead of text nobody reads SWTOR has cut scenes.

as if the text in wow doesn't assume you are alone and not grouped? don't be freaking ridiculous!

SWTOR is a huge wow clone, other than the cut senes you play it exactly the same way as wow lol

and yes, the space content in swtor is for sure 100% a mini game, its a fact.

you can say that's an excuse for not having free roam space content but i am not making excuses, i am stating facts.

fishing is no more or less a part of the game than SWTOR's current space combat mini game is (actually less of the game world since its totally instanced and separate while fishing in wow is not).

space combat is not a part of the game world like it would be if it was a free roam feature where you can physically fly from one planet to the next and encounter other players on the way.

when BW mentioned making space combat multiplayer, i would bet money it was referring to it being a multiplayer mini game like it is now, which is pointless IMO

all it is is a starfox style mini game that is completely separate from the rest of the game, that gives you something different to do like fishing would.

as far as the cartel market goes, your opinion is duly noted. i personally think (as i said before) they are trying to make the game more profitable so they can hopefully add more content in the future.

by the way they have added content, even if it is content you personally don't like.

did wow offer that much more content a little over a year after it was released? pretty sure BC still wasn't even out at that point and they added a new raid and a couple BG's that were supposed to be in at launch.

that's considering all the loads of cash wow was making as well.

not saying this game is all that or better than wow, but you are making claims that are just not accurate and using it as an excuse to bash a game you don't like because its not SWG2

its a themepark, not great but not a bad one either,especially if you are a fan of the KOTOR series and play those games for the stories. but that is just my opinion.


  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2667

110100100

5/16/13 1:28:12 PM#95


Originally posted by keithian
As someone who loved WOW for several years with that being the only game that I played more than 1 full year non stop, you just lost any credibility. I do agree however that SWTOR feels even more single player than WOW, but they BOTH have a single player feel for 95%+ of the content.

i wouldn't even say it feels much more like a single player game than wow did except for the fact that SWTOR has cut scenes instead of text.

i can see why someone would think it feels more like a single player game because of that but when it comes down to it, its really no different than the way you play wow.

  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

5/16/13 1:53:15 PM#96
I think they need to remake this game on a better engine. Ultimately a great IP ruined because no out of the box thinking was applied.
  dumpcat

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 253

5/16/13 2:38:58 PM#97
Thanks for the SWG videos...now I'm depressed! You should have used SWG JTL for the space stuff. BF2 is ok but not open enough for MMO PvP. EVE is a snore fest. JTL was perfect.
  doodphace

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1719

5/16/13 3:28:53 PM#98
Originally posted by dumpcat
Thanks for the SWG videos...now I'm depressed! You should have used SWG JTL for the space stuff. BF2 is ok but not open enough for MMO PvP. EVE is a snore fest. JTL was perfect.

Sadly, JTL was the only part of SWG even resembling any form of "polish". Best space combat in any MMO ever.

  superniceguy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2278

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

5/16/13 4:35:08 PM#99
Originally posted by keithian
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by baphamet    

Originally posted by superniceguy  

Originally posted by baphamet     

Originally posted by superniceguy   

Originally posted by mrrshann618     Originally posted by superniceguy SWTOR is basically a more polished version of the NGE with less features, it is the NGE NGE'd but written from the ground up. Why do people keep comparing SWG sandbox crud with a themepark game? They are two different games. They have two different target audiences. SWG (NGE) was a sandbox that added Themepark elements, SWG fanatics admit as such. So why, why, why can't all of you see, that you hated the themepark elements? Why oh why is it then that you come to SWTOR and bitch about a thempark game? when it blatantly is one.    
There are themepark games that are actually good, and have been managed well. I like LOTRO and that is not a sandbox.   The way SWTOR has been designed is so basic that it even makes WOW and LOTRO, theme park games, seem like a sandbox. It just plays too much like a single player game. EA/BW did not take advice from Han Solo and got cocky. Basically SWTOR just needs more content and features and not just more Operations, Flashpoints etc. Theme park games get this too, Rift had housing added with the expansion. If it can't get these things then it is not a MMO but a single player game with multiplayer and getting DLC like Mass Effect 3. If it was released as a single player game like ME3, then I would just play it and then move on, but as it is meant to be a MMO, it should expand with more features, and none have gained my interest so far. Maybe 2.2 or 2.3 or 2.4 ...? Even Rift impressed me with their updates, hopefully SWTOR will, and until it does then will keep "bitching" about it
  wow and lotro play like single player games as well. SWTOR is a wow clone for god sakes lol the only difference is the world is a bit more open (even though certain worlds in SWTOR are just as open as wow's) and the open pvp was done better because you actually do the quests in the same areas as the opposing faction most of the time after level 20. also, a lot of sandbox features you are talking about does nothing in terms of making it feel less like a single player game. most themeparks since wow released have focused more on being solo friendly and having that "single player feel". wow is the game that really introduced that and made it to where you can play the game all the way to max level by yourself, other than doing small group dungeons and BG's......exactly the same as SWTOR. so tell me again how SWTOR plays too much like a single player game and wow does not?  
In WOW and LOTRO you are not so much directed on a set path. In LOTRO and WOW you can do most all quests from any NPC as long as you are the right level, but in SWTOR you can only do quests given to you. eg Smuggler / Commando can not get quests from Tython and Jedi can not get quests from Ord Mantell unless they have specific ones to get from there, whereas if SWTOR was like WOW or LOTRO you would be able to.   With WOW and LOTRO there is more reason to travel back to areas with lower levels, in SWTOR there is less reason to do so. WOW and LOTRO are more open, the worlds are more lifelike, and you can get side tracked with various things en route, but in SWTOR there is not much other than the quests themselves
  none of that makes wow play less like a single player than SWTOR. what you are talking about is linear content, that has absolutely no effect on the fact you can play wow like its a single player game just like you can in SWTOR. look at skyrim, is that not a single player game? yet its not as linear as wow. does that make it more massive multi player? lol also i would argue that SWTOR and its linear content is more on par with the KOTOR games which are extremely linear in the same manner. so i kind of understand why they did that but i definitely agree its a little confined for an mmo.  
The main reason why I said it was like a single player game is because it is being updated like one - very few and far between. A single player game does get not get majorly revamped, just get content added, like what SWTOR is getting.

 

The other thing I forgot to say was the space game, that is pure 100% single player. When asking BW/EA if it will have multiplayer space, their response was it will not be there at launch, implying that it would come later, but there has been no signs of it, only the secret space project which is only an assumption

SWTOR feels more like a Mass Effect game than playing WOW or LOTRO. Also single player games are not all single player, they do have multiplayer modes eg Mass Effect 3, Star Trek (not STO the recently released game based on the new films). It just feels like extortion when paying for a monthly fee to this game as do not have to pay a fee for those games, and especially now with the Cartel Market where subbers are expected to pay for stuff as well when it should be free within the monthly fee eg life day items, anniversary items other MMOs give it free or put it in an event plus this latest update has caused a bit of an uproar

Basically what I was getting at is the fact it has little end game content, you play the game through from 1-50, play a bit at the end, but do not stick around much,  unlike other MMOs - this is standard play through of a single player game, whereas MMOs you play long after max level. The only thing that really keeps people playing is creating alts, but for some that is boring. In SWG you only really needed one character and there was plenty of stuff to do at max level. In STO there is plenty of stuff to do at max level. There is in other MMOs too. SWTOR has the lowest amount of stuff to do at max level. The fact that the game lost over 1.5 million subs (75% of the people who bought the game from launch) within 11 months plus the numerous articles on this site and elsewhere about this matter, proves this to be the case, and I am not the only one.  Once max level any other MMO is more worth while, and SWTORs strengths of wanting to play it just go bye bye


 

well compared to wow right now yeah there isn't as much end game content.

but if you remember, after wow first came out there wasn't a lot of end game content either.

i think it was BW's every intention to come out with all this new content, because they thought they would get paid like wow did.

they are also spending a lot of time on their cartel market crap to make the game profitable for them, something wow didn't have an issue with.

as far as the space combat goes, its a mini game. just like fishing or those harpoon type quests in wow (for example)

mini games like that are not supposed to be muliplayer, even though i do think it would be cool to see swtor with full blown free roam space content.

you still don't see wow with anything like that other than under water content i guess.

but still, even if wow didn't have under water content, would it be any less of an mmo and more of a single player game? no, not in my opinion.

i get what you are saying that swtor lacks in its mmo features and end game is lackluster, i agree with you.

but it really doesn't play any more like a single player game than most the other themeparks that are similar to wow.

they all play like a single player game to me with their more scripted content more like a single player.

like i said, wow was the game to introduce that type of single player content to the mmo genre.

There is zero single player feel in WOW. 

As someone who loved WOW for several years with that being the only game that I played more than 1 full year non stop, you just lost any credibility. I do agree however that SWTOR feels even more single player than WOW, but they BOTH have a single player feel for 95%+ of the content.

Well, it does not feel single player to me

  keithian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 3039

5/16/13 4:35:47 PM#100
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by keithian
As someone who loved WOW for several years with that being the only game that I played more than 1 full year non stop, you just lost any credibility. I do agree however that SWTOR feels even more single player than WOW, but they BOTH have a single player feel for 95%+ of the content.

 

i wouldn't even say it feels much more like a single player game than wow did except for the fact that SWTOR has cut scenes instead of text.

i can see why someone would think it feels more like a single player game because of that but when it comes down to it, its really no different than the way you play wow.

 

I agree with you, but I guess the reason why I felt SWTOR feels slightly more single player is that during those cut scenes which are often lengthy, you feel cut off from the chat window, others around the zone chatting away, etc..so just by the cut scenes it feels more single player, but its a minor point I know :-) It doesn't really bother me at all. 

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