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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do Sandboxes Overwhelm You With Choices?

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135 posts found
  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

5/06/13 2:13:58 PM#121
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Disdena

That's your definition, it's not the one true definition, and the author of the article is not incorrect.

The article's author is actually incorrect on several accounts:

  • Incorrect use of the term "sandbox" relating to a game which is nonlinear, rather than a game which is about player authorship over the game world.
  • Assuming the problem with sandboxes is choice overload, when the problem is a lack of choices.  
The definition of sandbox I use:
  • Is the historic origin of the term as applied to games.
  • Makes the most sense logically.
What the hell more do we need than that?

I reject the historic origin that you claim. Furthermore, whether it used to mean that, it should be enough to point out that a.) many people use a variety of definitions for the word "sandbox" (this is hardly the first time people have disagreed over what it means and whether or not a particular game is one) and b.) the article is based around a different definition than yours. If you want to speak of logic, this is what you'd call an etymological fallacy.

I think that the reason we call nonlinear or undirected games sandbox games is apparent, but rather than continuing to nitpick over whether a correct definition exists, why not keep the thread on track and accept that this discussion is about being overwhelmed by choice in games that are open and undirected, rather than games with malleable game elements? There are plenty of other threads to have that discussion. Lizardbones has been trying to keep this one on topic.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6910

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

5/06/13 2:36:09 PM#122

Choice/depth/options i like them all.

Usually what gets me turned off however is how they are implemented.Too many menu clicks and i am not happy.If something is done as a spam fest not happy.If choices are fake ,meaning you really only have one legit choice but games gives you impression of many.

FFXI simply blows the doors off every game for choice but then i have seen the efforts wasted for the most part.Gamers are still playing extremely superficial ,no matter how many choices they are given all they want is to level.You could spend every single day doing something other than level in FFXI and still be very busy.

As far as leveling,no game offers a realistic choice.They offer you linear questing,so you are not experiencing your own game,you are followng a laid out path the developer wants you to play.Sometimes games give you free xp for just walking around,i find it extremely lame and it is not a choice ,they simply bind the location to your quests anyhow.

The normal game offers you three choices,linear questing,crafting and Instance Boss and that is about it.With so lttle choice from games people are calling Sandbox you can see why i lol@the comparison.A game like Rift offered a couple more choices RIfts and Invasions somewhat similar to what FFXI does with Campaign.However no game has offered the choice of FFXI's Beseiged and imo it  is simply fun. the fact so many still enjoy it and show up for every one,tells youi it is a great choice.I might add it offers no rewards aside from experience yet people still show up in drones to do it.

There adds another question,do you think players would play the common third choice of raiding if not for loot?I don't think so.So that pulls those game back to two real choices,crafting and linear questing.Then another question,if no xp reward or loot for those quests,do you think they would do the quests?I think not,so leads back to what i said earlier,players are playing to do nothing more than level.

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  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20242

5/06/13 3:01:53 PM#123
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by waynejr2
 

 How would you feel if you went into that bar to buy a drink from the bartender and for a tip, he will tell you rumors then you get a chance to choose one or more items from that list?

I would feel annoyed .. more text to read? I would much rather there are more dungeons to choose from on my LFD.

 So would you prefer a lobby based LFD game?  Why would you need a world other to feel you aren't playing a lobby game?

Yes, i would prefer a lobby-based LFD game. I don't need a virtual world. There is nothing wrong with playing a lobby game when it is fun for me.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20242

5/06/13 3:05:04 PM#124
Originally posted by mmoski

More choice is always better, there's no situation I can think of where less choice is better for me, unless you suffer from an indecisive disorder of course, hehe.

I can think of many situations where less choice is better for me. particularly those when the choice is not interesting, but have to waste time to make them.

Extreme example, you have to click through the choose 100 choice, each consist of do you want to raise your dps by 5% or 10%. The choice is trivial, boring, and i don't want to waste time to make them.

In this case, i would much rather have the obvious bad choice eliminated, don't waste my time and let on with killing stuff.

Choices are only fun when they provide an interesting decision (like do i use the time bubble skill or the teleport escape spell).

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

5/06/13 3:07:54 PM#125

Simply....No.

 

Never been overwhelmed by a sandbox giving me choices.

 

 

Not having enough meaningful choice will make me quit a mmo.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/06/13 3:29:42 PM#126
Originally posted by Disdena

I reject the historic origin that you claim. Furthermore, whether it used to mean that, it should be enough to point out that a.) many people use a variety of definitions for the word "sandbox" (this is hardly the first time people have disagreed over what it means and whether or not a particular game is one) and b.) the article is based around a different definition than yours. If you want to speak of logic, this is what you'd call an etymological fallacy.

I think that the reason we call nonlinear or undirected games sandbox games is apparent, but rather than continuing to nitpick over whether a correct definition exists, why not keep the thread on track and accept that this discussion is about being overwhelmed by choice in games that are open and undirected, rather than games with malleable game elements? There are plenty of other threads to have that discussion. Lizardbones has been trying to keep this one on topic.

The problem with rejecting history post-internet is I can do this and suddenly the truth is super clear.  It's hard to reject cold hard fact.

If someone writes an article about how their best friend was on a bicycle and hit by an airplane driver who was under the influence of alchohol, am I allowed to point out it's not an airplane at all?  Or is that etymological fallacy too and we just have to accept the freshly-minted definition of the author (who was probably also drunk?)

No, the reason you call them sandbox isn't apparent.  I pointed that out earlier in the thread!  That lack of logic (compared with the abundance of logic of the definition I'm using) are the fundamental reasons the mis-use of the term should be called out.

Related to the thread, the author's mistake of assuming Glitch failed because there was too much to do (when there was not enough to do) is further evidence that we shouldn't take them seriously (and they were possibly also drunk.)

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3804

RIP City of Heroes!

5/07/13 1:55:03 PM#127
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by waynejr2
 

 How would you feel if you went into that bar to buy a drink from the bartender and for a tip, he will tell you rumors then you get a chance to choose one or more items from that list?

I would feel annoyed .. more text to read? I would much rather there are more dungeons to choose from on my LFD.

 So would you prefer a lobby based LFD game?  Why would you need a world other to feel you aren't playing a lobby game?

Yes, i would prefer a lobby-based LFD game. I don't need a virtual world. There is nothing wrong with playing a lobby game when it is fun for me.

 There is nothing wrong with what people prefer.  Lobby based LFD makes sense from a business end as well.  The cost to build virtual worlds and fill them with content is expensive.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20242

5/07/13 10:19:55 PM#128
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by waynejr2
 

 How would you feel if you went into that bar to buy a drink from the bartender and for a tip, he will tell you rumors then you get a chance to choose one or more items from that list?

I would feel annoyed .. more text to read? I would much rather there are more dungeons to choose from on my LFD.

 So would you prefer a lobby based LFD game?  Why would you need a world other to feel you aren't playing a lobby game?

Yes, i would prefer a lobby-based LFD game. I don't need a virtual world. There is nothing wrong with playing a lobby game when it is fun for me.

 There is nothing wrong with what people prefer.  Lobby based LFD makes sense from a business end as well.  The cost to build virtual worlds and fill them with content is expensive.

Not to mention there are some huge successes of games without an online virtual world recently .. Diablo 3,  WOT, LoL, DOTA2, Borderlands 1 & 2 .. are all online games with progression elements, and no virtual world.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5357

5/08/13 5:20:32 AM#129

Back to what the thread was about.

Do Sandboxes Overwhelm You With Choices:

No, but modern easymode design has made players expect to make no choices at all. So I would imagine if you were to go from an easymode MMO to something more sandbox it would come as a shock.

  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1578

5/08/13 5:25:07 AM#130
Originally posted by lizardbones

Yet another interesting discussion over at Massively.com, but they don't have a forum format for the interactive experience you can get here.

Do Sandboxes Overwhelm You?

To Summarize:
Sandboxes offer a lot of choice, and often they have very little direction on what to do. Does the lack of direction and number of possible directions to go overwhelm you?

This is a simple question, but I expect the answers aren't so simple.

If I can think of a good set of poll choices, I'll add a poll. That is assuming we can avoid getting the thread locked by descending into a sandbox vs theme park argument.

Does life?

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  TommiJyurro

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 51

It's mostly s#!% in a can, unless it's s#!% on a wire.Why are you still playing with s#!%?

5/08/13 9:09:17 AM#131

Sandboxes do not overwhelm me, not at all.  However, that is how I live life.  I go to college, however I do not stick to any one program as proscribed by the community college, I just take whatever classes interest me.  This allows me to pursue MY interests, not the interests of the paper-pushing "we create moderately educated drones for the modern workplace" for-profit university. 

I agree with the of people who have posted that sandboxes are for people who like thinking for themselves, and themeparks are for people who have been tricked into believeing that doing what they are told is actually thinking for themselves.

Anything new here? Hmmm... Nope. o/

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20242

5/08/13 12:31:56 PM#132
Originally posted by Scot

Back to what the thread was about.

Do Sandboxes Overwhelm You With Choices:

No, but modern easymode design has made players expect to make no choices at all. So I would imagine if you were to go from an easymode MMO to something more sandbox it would come as a shock.

Wait .. choosing whether to queue up for dungeon A or dungeon B is not a choice?

  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

5/08/13 12:35:59 PM#133
No, although I will say I normally find myself logging in with the intention of doing one thing, and end up actually getting completely side tracked and doing something completely different. That happens in the themeparkiest themeparks as well, though, not just sandboxes.
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5357

5/09/13 5:03:11 AM#134
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

Back to what the thread was about.

Do Sandboxes Overwhelm You With Choices:

No, but modern easymode design has made players expect to make no choices at all. So I would imagine if you were to go from an easymode MMO to something more sandbox it would come as a shock.

Wait .. choosing whether to queue up for dungeon A or dungeon B is not a choice?

 

Now you are just taking the piss, get back into your F2P box! :)

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2347

5/10/13 2:10:16 PM#135
I'm going to have to go ahead and agree that the "Do sandboxes overwhelm you with choices?" question is wrong, also that the majority are saying No reinforces this. The journalist used the question with examples that don't support it. Gltich, being too foreign of a concept, has nothing to do with a sandbox with too many choices but more so a lack of direction. And Skyrim, "someone quit because he'd finished the main questline and thought it was over", also has nothing to do with sandbox or choices. If the opening question was, "Does a lack of direction push you away from sandboxes?" would have been a little better.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

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