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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Need your opinion... AIMed based abilities?

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90 posts found
  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

5/03/13 12:45:52 PM#21

I've played competitive FPS shooters (CAL) in the past and of course reticule targeting drives those games and matches perfectly. In mmos however I simply hate them if the entire system is based upon it. In a mmo, no matter how many abilities you have or what they are, they all seem to become the same ... you aim ... you click. This becomes extremely repetitive and boring fast.

I have played some hybrid games where the reticule was more of a backup and a soft ability to target who you want but still allowing Tab targeting for specific powers that do not require aiming. The reticule more or less is an additional tab tool when it comes to traditional mmo abilities. The benefit to this is you can possibly also throw in some pure aiming abilities seamlessly. The point is to add variety and tactics to the gameplay without entirely removing the benefits of alternative systems.

Some players may hate tab targeting but it allows for the creation of certain abilities that have unique properties and tactics (i.e. longer cast times and spell affects, different los restrictions, and general feel of ability implementation). Debating which system is better is a moot point if you can incorporate both systems together or perhaps some other unique deployment.

You stay sassy!

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3732

RIP City of Heroes!

5/03/13 1:38:54 PM#22
I won't be playing an archer so YES let's have aim based archery!
  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1983

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

5/03/13 1:53:36 PM#23

Mark said they didn't want archers to be just mages with bows tab-targeting stuff, and hinted they might have some kind of different aiming mechanic for them.

He's also said they aren't looking at doing 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4, -1-2-3 etc. rotation based gameplay since there's a ton of games already doing that.

He was very specific about these.

Currently playing: Divinity: Original Sin, FTL, Hearthstone and Skyrim.
Eagerly anticipating: Camelot Unchained, Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2 and Star Citizen.

  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

5/03/13 2:01:46 PM#24
One thing to consider is that this will be a very stat-driven game, as MJ has said. Given that, stats that affect accuracy should ostensibly be lent as much affect as others.

Secondly, this is a RPG, not a FPS, and as such your character's abilities should factor in a bit more than in twitch games. Skill comes in through strategy and choice based upon those abilities. Relegating just one/a few option to twitch and all others to tab targetting seems inconsistent.

All IMO, of course. :)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Leiloni

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 348

5/03/13 2:05:27 PM#25
Originally posted by PerfArt
One thing to consider is that this will be a very stat-driven game, as MJ has said. Given that, stats that affect accuracy should ostensibly be lent as much affect as others.

Secondly, this is a RPG, not a FPS, and as such your character's abilities should factor in a bit more than in twitch games. Skill comes in through strategy and choice based upon those abilities. Relegating just one/a few option to twitch and all others to tab targetting seems inconsistent.

All IMO, of course. :)

Just because it's a stat driven game that doesn't mean they need to have an accuracy stat, nor do they need even a block or evasion stat. I've played games that were very gear and stat heavy but that were free targeting action combat games. They just don't have those few stats because they don't need them, but there are a ton of other stats in MMO's that you can have so that doesn't really affect the targeting system either way I think.

 

What makes free targeting games more skill based IMO is that not only do you have the same skill based choices a tab target game has like you mention, but on top of that you also have to aim properly, position properly, dodge/block properly. It adds an entirely different layer of challenge onto combat and makes it that much more fun. It's a more evolved way of doing combat from tab targeting.

 

Edit: Holy shit why in the hell does this forum not have a spell check....

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

5/03/13 2:32:05 PM#26
Originally posted by Leiloni
Originally posted by PerfArt
One thing to consider is that this will be a very stat-driven game, as MJ has said. Given that, stats that affect accuracy should ostensibly be lent as much affect as others.

Secondly, this is a RPG, not a FPS, and as such your character's abilities should factor in a bit more than in twitch games. Skill comes in through strategy and choice based upon those abilities. Relegating just one/a few option to twitch and all others to tab targetting seems inconsistent.

All IMO, of course. :)

Just because it's a stat driven game that doesn't mean they need to have an accuracy stat, nor do they need even a block or evasion stat. I've played games that were very gear and stat heavy but that were free targeting action combat games. They just don't have those few stats because they don't need them, but there are a ton of other stats in MMO's that you can have so that doesn't really affect the targeting system either way I think.

 

What makes free targeting games more skill based IMO is that not only do you have the same skill based choices a tab target game has like you mention, but on top of that you also have to aim properly, position properly, dodge/block properly. It adds an entirely different layer of challenge onto combat and makes it that much more fun. It's a more evolved way of doing combat from tab targeting.

 

Edit: Holy shit why in the hell does this forum not have a spell check....

So you want to take RvR battles with hundreds of players participating and make it even more complicated for ... why? Why do we need a entirely different layer of challenge on top?

Imho, if the gameplay is so boring that it needs some kind of "try hitting the guy in the 8vs10 brawl going back and forth" it failed. Besides isn't that what DF is about?

My issue is that if you have free targeting you need to make each shot much more powerful because you have to assume some shots will miss even for a good player. Also you would completely ruin the class for players that are just not very good at FPS games. I backed a MMO with a focus on RvR, not planetside: arthurian edition.

Look i understand some people like that kind of gameplay, but we are talking about niche here, and catering to a niche in a niche game doesn't sound like a good idea. If you get the urge to play some cooperative shooter there are enough out there that are pretty well done. If this becomes some kind of DF/planetside meets minecraft we should have been told during the kickstarter, everything MJ said gave the impression it will be target locked based skill activations like DaoC, warhammer or whatever.

Personally i will nail him to that if need be because there is a huge difference between a MMOFPS and a MMORPG, i wouldn't have backed the former cause its just not my kind of game.

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

5/03/13 2:51:46 PM#27

Originally posted by Leiloni

...

Look i understand some people like that kind of gameplay, but we are talking about niche here, and catering to a niche in a niche game doesn't sound like a good idea. If you get the urge to play some cooperative shooter there are enough out there that are pretty well done. If this becomes some kind of DF/planetside meets minecraft we should have been told during the kickstarter, everything MJ said gave the impression it will be target locked based skill activations like DaoC, warhammer or whatever.

Personally i will nail him to that if need be because there is a huge difference between a MMOFPS and a MMORPG, i wouldn't have backed the former cause its just not my kind of game.

I tend to agree here.  Although, I believe MJ hinted that there may be a hybrid targetting system, at least for Archers... I may be remembering that incorrectly, so don't quote me.

One thing to keep in mind is that DAoC primarily used tab-target and click-target systems, but there was also a ground target system for certain spells and abilities.  This ground targetting was a kind of "poor man's aim-to-target" system.  Granted, the ground target system in DAoC was VERY cumbersome.  That said, I see no reason not to streamline the ground targetting and use a similar group of targetting systems in CU.

So, you have your tab-target-lock for basic short range abilities and attacks.  You have your click-target-lock for basic long range abilities and attacks.  And you have your ground target or aim-to-target type specialty abilities and attacks.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

5/03/13 2:52:14 PM#28
Originally posted by Rocketeer
Originally posted by Leiloni
Originally posted by PerfArt
One thing to consider is that this will be a very stat-driven game, as MJ has said. Given that, stats that affect accuracy should ostensibly be lent as much affect as others.

Secondly, this is a RPG, not a FPS, and as such your character's abilities should factor in a bit more than in twitch games. Skill comes in through strategy and choice based upon those abilities. Relegating just one/a few option to twitch and all others to tab targetting seems inconsistent.

All IMO, of course. :)

Just because it's a stat driven game that doesn't mean they need to have an accuracy stat, nor do they need even a block or evasion stat. I've played games that were very gear and stat heavy but that were free targeting action combat games. They just don't have those few stats because they don't need them, but there are a ton of other stats in MMO's that you can have so that doesn't really affect the targeting system either way I think.

 

What makes free targeting games more skill based IMO is that not only do you have the same skill based choices a tab target game has like you mention, but on top of that you also have to aim properly, position properly, dodge/block properly. It adds an entirely different layer of challenge onto combat and makes it that much more fun. It's a more evolved way of doing combat from tab targeting.

 

Edit: Holy shit why in the hell does this forum not have a spell check....

So you want to take RvR battles with hundreds of players participating and make it even more complicated for ... why? Why do we need a entirely different layer of challenge on top?

Imho, if the gameplay is so boring that it needs some kind of "try hitting the guy in the 8vs10 brawl going back and forth" it failed. Besides isn't that what DF is about?

My issue is that if you have free targeting you need to make each shot much more powerful because you have to assume some shots will miss even for a good player. Also you would completely ruin the class for players that are just not very good at FPS games. I backed a MMO with a focus on RvR, not planetside: arthurian edition.

Look i understand some people like that kind of gameplay, but we are talking about niche here, and catering to a niche in a niche game doesn't sound like a good idea. If you get the urge to play some cooperative shooter there are enough out there that are pretty well done. If this becomes some kind of DF/planetside meets minecraft we should have been told during the kickstarter, everything MJ said gave the impression it will be target locked based skill activations like DaoC, warhammer or whatever.

Personally i will nail him to that if need be because there is a huge difference between a MMOFPS and a MMORPG, i wouldn't have backed the former cause its just not my kind of game.

+1

If they have any type of free aim target system for any class, people are just going to spam dance jump around to avoid them... watch some darkfall 1v1 videos, such a disaster they are to watch so annoying. If you want that challenge go for it, just doubtful to see it in this game. You can't pull from the successes of daoc and WAR to back a game, and then change something like this so functional to combat...

But you can debate all day, I am 99.9% sure it will get removed (even if they add it) either in pre-dev, alpha or beta... No ones going to play an archer when their opponent runs around dancing all day avoiding their attacks claiming its "skill"

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

5/03/13 3:14:26 PM#29

No thanks,

i play mmo as a graphical bridge from P&P game.

we get stats to replace the meager strength, dex, hand eye etc. we possess as pathetic humans

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

5/03/13 3:18:19 PM#30

One way to look at this is to think of how this game came about to begin with. It is clear CU is a niche pure RvR game base upong traditional RPG and old school backgrounds. The players who backed the KS are mostly comprised of people who played old style rpg and mmos especially those with DAoC experience. 

 

There clearly is very little aimed/reticle style combat from those games other than abilities with chances to miss regardless of aimed style combat (such as Asheron's Call). I cannot possibly see MJ deciding on a commpletely different system adapted from non-mmo genres or it completely goes against the expectations of the core player base. MJ has spoken of this easly on though and clearly stated a hybrid approach is under consideration.

You stay sassy!

  Leiloni

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 348

5/03/13 3:20:28 PM#31
Originally posted by Rocketeer

Imho, if the gameplay is so boring that it needs some kind of "try hitting the guy in the 8vs10 brawl going back and forth" it failed. Besides isn't that what DF is about?

For me I don't care how awesome the rest of the game is and how much great gameplay and features they've packed into it. If the combat is tab target I just can't get past it because it's not fun and that's what you spend most of a game doing. But no DF's combat drives me nuts, I'm talking more along the lines of what TERA did. I've seen other games do a non targeting thing pretty decently as well (RaiderZ, Neverwinter and Dragon's Prophet come to mind) but really if I had to name just one game TERA is the one with the best combat overall.

  Moraxo

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 17

5/03/13 3:23:39 PM#32
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

If they have any type of free aim target system for any class, people are just going to spam dance jump around to avoid them... watch some darkfall 1v1 videos, such a disaster they are to watch so annoying. If you want that challenge go for it, just doubtful to see it in this game. You can't pull from the successes of daoc and WAR to back a game, and then change something like this so functional to combat...

But you can debate all day, I am 99.9% sure it will get removed (even if they add it) either in pre-dev, alpha or beta... No ones going to play an archer when their opponent runs around dancing all day avoiding their attacks claiming its "skill"

Many classes, like casters, some supporters or opposing archers won't be able to "dance jump around", as they will have to stand still to do their job. Also, in keep warfare, the people operating siege machinery or  defending certain passages will be fairly stational.

I for one would be glad if strafejumpdancing around wasn't a viable melee combat tactic anymore. An acceleration based movement system and collision detection would be a good start for that. A more physically accurate, aim based archery system might actually have a place in such a scenario, otherwise we might end up having "mages with bows" - and we all know what MJ thinks of that.

  tinuelle

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 290

It's all about pushing the right buttons

5/03/13 3:29:48 PM#33
I vote aim + friendly fire on all siege equipment.

  NegativeX

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 100

 
OP  5/03/13 3:34:28 PM#34

Excellent discussion w/ great ideas...

 

Thank you!

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  TigsKC

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 139

5/03/13 3:39:18 PM#35

I guess I am in the hybrid camp wherein ranged classes use tab-targetting for primary attacks, but also have access to a few aimed talents/skills for special circumstances.

But, moreover, I love the passion and diversity of opinion on this topic.

I am not a big fan of those who take an "Its my way or the highway" stance on these things.  Game development takes a long time and there is a lot of give and take, concession and compromise, and great ideas that fizzle at implmentation.  Anyone who thinks this game is going to incorporate only the ideas they like should prepare for some level of disappointment. 

And, for those young ones needing attribtuon, look it up.

I saw her today at the reception
In her glass was a bleeding man
She was practiced at the art of deception
Well, I could tell by her blood-stained hands

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

5/03/13 3:56:47 PM#36
I don't mind skill shots. That said, I don't think it should be in the game either. I don't play archers so I honestly don't care, but goodluck landing aimed shots on your choice target in pvp unless they do something like general aim and autolock.... but then what's the point.
  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5548

5/03/13 4:06:24 PM#37

It seems like a lot of people, when considering the use of aimed shots, are thinking that it's going to be overly difficult to hit your target in a PvP situation becasue the enemy is going to be moving around a lot. I don't think the most effective way of using something like this would work that way very often.

 

The way I would use my uber-powerful aimed shot would be to work in conjunction with another player that has a strong root, stick a guy in a spot and unload whatever it is I have with a really simple aimed shot that anyone and their grandparents can pull off.

 

This leads to a question of balance. If you are going to give a class an uber-powerful aimed shot and well coordinated teams can use roots effectively, this idea becomes extremely difficult to balance. 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

5/03/13 6:04:23 PM#38

I think some MOBA style skills could work along side a traditional tab target setup. Not quite the same thing you are suggesting but still has many of the same benefits, rewarding better and more intelligent play etc.

  UOlover

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/10
Posts: 331

5/03/13 6:11:06 PM#39
If it doesn't impact the technical side of things and it can actually be reliable I'd be up for it in some limited use
  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

5/03/13 6:15:06 PM#40
Please, no reticle targeting system.  It's fine for action games, FPS games, etc.. but I don't want it in an MMORPG.
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