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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » STEALTH

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43 posts found
  Delavega86

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 114

5/02/13 3:28:06 AM#21

i suggested a similar stealth mechanic a whlie back myself.

i like the idea, obviously. and i support yours!

although the veil-walker/stalker mechanic does intrigue me.

  Scrat^ITA

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/05
Posts: 17

5/02/13 3:30:02 AM#22
The real problem with stealth atm in MMOs is it's instant win as Plan A or instant vanish as Plan B, so there is no real interaction between players, and that is bad for a MMO. You can win or you can not-win but you cannot lose.

Tusken Raiders - Your Italian Guild on Star Wars: The Old Republic

  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

5/02/13 5:15:17 AM#23
Originally posted by zeroumus
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
I also only read paragraph one btw
Also this game is Rock Paper Scissors so it's easier to have stealthers as they fit in

you guys are going to make me edit the first part out :)   Generates to much hostilities at the start

When you start your story with 'a good game does not have stealth', you basically set a lot  (not all) of daoc players against you.  After that, as an example, you take TF2 spy stealth, which tells me that 1: you haven't played daoc and 2: you call both daoc and TF2 bad games. Also stealth mechanic in TF2 is a LOT different from that in DAoC.

People that have actually PLAYED an assassin in DAoC know how that stealth mechanic works.

For me as an infiltrator in DAoC, it was quite a challenge to make a kill and get away clean. You can make a kill and die, which is an exchange of RP's... fine. But making a clean kill could take quite a while..

 

And as always: try to play an unbuffed infiltrator/scout against other unbuffed player.

 

infiltrator vs melee dps-> infil loses most of the time, unless crit strikes/luck works out.

infiltrator vs tank -> infil loses most of the time.

infiltrator vs caster -> infil wins most of the time.

infiltrator vs other stealther -> hard to predict the outcome.

 

 

People often forget that playing a stealther takes a lot of patience on the part of the player. What you're suggesting would take even MORE patience. At a certain point the added patience degrades the fun the player has in playing that class. And that's certainly not desirable.

So, in conclusion: you try to make it less fun/harder to play a stealther in CU, but your arguments about the current games or why stealth isn't good are subpar. The problem in DAoC with stealthers was buffbots. that... and only that. (in my not-so-humble opinion ;-)

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur

  zeroumus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 54

 
OP  5/02/13 7:42:48 AM#24

TF2 is an awesome game,  just to set the record right  !  :)

and.   yes, i did not play DAOC,   one of my biggest regrets as a gamer.  Somehow we did not meet.

Regardless,  I just don't want the stealth mechanic to be  "single player",  by that I mean,  its all nice that it can be hard to get into position for the stealther,   but there is not involvement with other players/victims in the process, and there needs to be to make things fun for everyone.   Fun is whats important.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

5/02/13 9:01:01 AM#25
Originally posted by zeroumus

TF2 is an awesome game,  just to set the record right  !  :)

and.   yes, i did not play DAOC,   one of my biggest regrets as a gamer.  Somehow we did not meet.

Regardless,  I just don't want the stealth mechanic to be  "single player",  by that I mean,  its all nice that it can be hard to get into position for the stealther,   but there is not involvement with other players/victims in the process, and there needs to be to make things fun for everyone.   Fun is whats important.

It just shows you clearly havn't played a game with stealth done differently then stun-lock wow.

Stealth was never a single player game in daoc except when stealthers would 2 shot casters, which i think 99% of people would agree was a bad implimentation, wasn't the fact they had perma stealth at all... If perf/backstab did half damage to casters, I bet most casters would have beat stealthers. If you QC a root or stun or mezz, you would rape them before they got back to you, if you surprised them you would 2 shot them, so I never understood the complaint ... sounds to me like you arn't in favor of a rock paper scissor combat system.

The whole point of stealthers is the excitement of that player knowing you don't know he's there, the shock when boom he is there. I can't fathom people not being tense / nervous when they're walking around through a choke point believing there might be a stealther roaming around.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

5/02/13 9:43:12 AM#26
Originally posted by zeroumus

TF2 is an awesome game,  just to set the record right  !  :)

and.   yes, i did not play DAOC,   one of my biggest regrets as a gamer.  Somehow we did not meet.

Regardless,  I just don't want the stealth mechanic to be  "single player",  by that I mean,  its all nice that it can be hard to get into position for the stealther,   but there is not involvement with other players/victims in the process, and there needs to be to make things fun for everyone.   Fun is whats important.

You still can play DAoC, on Live(paid) and on Uthgard(free).

It's not just the 'getting into position' that's hard as a stealther. Constantly you have to be aware of where you are, where you want to go and how you want to get there. 

And actually why would there NOT be a way to solo? There's no PVE to solo in... a big part of crafting is also done in rvr. So what can you do to have fun if you WANT to solo? 

For me, in DAoC, playing infiltrator was good fun solo. 

You say Fun is what's important... What if my fun is to occasionally play solo in CU? Part of being a sandbox MMO is that you're not forced to do something, so why should this be any different?

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur

  Lawtoween

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/13
Posts: 104

5/02/13 5:48:59 PM#27
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Also people need to stop ignoring the fact stealthers have always given other players a sense to worry about being jumped, it really does pull you into the world a little bit more

I wouldn't mind (as much) if I had to worry about the stealther that had been waiting for 15 minutes for me to pass by and assassinated me as I did.  My problem is with the stealther I see running towards me that disappears just out of spell range and then is able to unleash his opener, one shotting me, even though I am mounted and have turned around and am running away.  This sort of stealth (the now standard implementation) is pure nonsense.

Mark's idear for the VW could be a fair way to deal with this.  With a long casting time spell to enter the veil, I envision a VW being able to select a sngle target to pull into the veil with them where they can then use their superior veil abilities to squish the victim.  The victim would not be "stunned" or mobility impaired in any way, but if they weren't a VW also, they would not be more powerful in the veil like the VW would.

I think it would be really cool if VWs were able to single target do this both from in and out of the veil, and veil stalkers could AoE do this (as sort of a CC).  The effect would have a time limit as the veil pushes the victim(s) back to our reality, thus making it a CC ability.  But also, a VW and a VS working together could target small groups for the VS to split up and they could take them down each in their own side of the veil. 

In essence, in my vision the VW would be a souped up version of whatever base class has the VW ability (whether that be caster or melee dps) while in the veil, and maybe weakened while out.  Other groups would have to be careful when they see a "partial" group because it might be a full group with VW(s) in the veil waiting for some targets.

Combine that with the other abilities Mark mentioned and the VW and VS become useful additions to an RvR group.

  zeroumus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 54

 
OP  5/02/13 7:29:46 PM#28
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Originally posted by zeroumus

TF2 is an awesome game,  just to set the record right  !  :)

and.   yes, i did not play DAOC,   one of my biggest regrets as a gamer.  Somehow we did not meet.

Regardless,  I just don't want the stealth mechanic to be  "single player",  by that I mean,  its all nice that it can be hard to get into position for the stealther,   but there is not involvement with other players/victims in the process, and there needs to be to make things fun for everyone.   Fun is whats important.

It just shows you clearly havn't played a game with stealth done differently then stun-lock wow.

Stealth was never a single player game in daoc except when stealthers would 2 shot casters, which i think 99% of people would agree was a bad implimentation, wasn't the fact they had perma stealth at all... If perf/backstab did half damage to casters, I bet most casters would have beat stealthers. If you QC a root or stun or mezz, you would rape them before they got back to you, if you surprised them you would 2 shot them, so I never understood the complaint ... sounds to me like you arn't in favor of a rock paper scissor combat system.

The whole point of stealthers is the excitement of that player knowing you don't know he's there, the shock when boom he is there. I can't fathom people not being tense / nervous when they're walking around through a choke point believing there might be a stealther roaming around.

 

I would get tense if heading towards a choke point where I know there could be a stealther hiding,   problem is,   with all the games i have played,   they are every where.    You just get used to it being everywhere, and it no longer becomes anything special.     it emotionly detaches you from the real emotion of being scared.

 

the core of my proposal is simply to give small hints to potential victims.   I would do this by creating good spots and bad spots for a stealther to do his stuff.

 

I am at a disadvantage in not having seem other implemenations of stealth other than WoW like games,  if someone could explain it's use in DAOC it a little,   maybe I would not be so worried about MJ's vision

 

no,  I am not in favour of rock paper scissor.  maybe a little,   but this should not be the design goal.    I does depend however,   rock paper scissor is ok for large RVR,  but its not ok for 1on1.  Since this will likely be true large scale RVR,  I am not too concerned with stealth there,  and hence i do support this game regardless.   but there has to be a better way to handle 1on1's ( or "ganking"situations )

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

5/03/13 8:30:04 PM#29
Originally posted by zeroumus
 

I would get tense if heading towards a choke point where I know there could be a stealther hiding,   problem is,   with all the games i have played,   they are every where.    You just get used to it being everywhere, and it no longer becomes anything special.     it emotionly detaches you from the real emotion of being scared....

Have to agree with this bit.  Its really one of the problem with the traditional stealth implementations.  When a dozen guys can just stand invisible in the middle of a field in broad daylight without being seen, theres really no reason to be afraid anywhere.  At any given moment as you walk along you either get attacked or you dont.  Its not like there was anything you could have done to prevent it.  No matter where you go you are under the exact same percentage chance of being attacked.

 

After all, IRL you could die or just have something bad happen to you at any moment, but we call people who actually think that way paranoid and send them to therapists.  If you work under a constant threat that never goes away, you generally just become numb to it.

 

I think MJ's ideas with the veil are looking interesting (though Im not sure whether I'd call it stealth, I think he's leaning it in a slightly different direction in terms of how the character interacts with other classes on the battlefield).

 

If that doesnt pan out, I'd be interested in a form of stealth that encouraged the use of cover with the potential to break if caught moving out in the open while a character is looking directly towards you.  Thats the sort of skill heavy scout character that I'd be very interested in playing.

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

5/03/13 8:52:19 PM#30
Originally posted by Taldier
 

I think MJ's ideas with the veil are looking interesting (though Im not sure whether I'd call it stealth, I think he's leaning it in a slightly different direction in terms of how the character interacts with other classes on the battlefield).

 

If that doesnt pan out, I'd be interested in a form of stealth that encouraged the use of cover with the potential to break if caught moving out in the open while a character is looking directly towards you.  Thats the sort of skill heavy scout character that I'd be very interested in playing.

I believe MJ said Archers would have a "camouflage" ability and would be better scouts than VW.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  zeroumus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 54

 
OP  5/05/13 8:22:42 PM#31

 

Side note,  I said in a previous post I did not support rock paper scissors.   I want to be clear about something,   I dont support "balanced"  classes either.        While I do support what mark has to say here to some degree  (   http://camelotunchained.com/en/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/ )..     I think there is another way to look at it.


 

instead of balancing things to the point where they are the same,  or dumbing it down to rock paper scissors.     why not just justify and define classes   by "need".    a class may not always kick ass,   but if its needed for something,  people will play it,  and they will find groups to do things with.   Healers are a kinda of need dependent classes already,   they don't exactly kick ass,  but groups want them.     if CU is designed well,   the crafters and builders will be needed  in RVR too.   Like I said in the Rezzing topic,  every system in this game should in some way help RVR, Crafting,  and building,   the class abilities are not exempt from this.   Each class need to add something to RVR, this what has been basically done already by every pvp mmo. But each class needs to contribute, or work well with Crafting and building too in an RVR setting. This is what will make this game kick ass


 

instead of worrying about weather they are balanced,  worry about how they fufill a required need 

  zeroumus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 54

 
OP  5/07/13 10:43:44 PM#32
I heard rumors its been promised there will be no full invisability in this game.    if this true..     would make me happy
  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

5/08/13 1:55:58 AM#33

Another stealth thread where the *stealth problem* assumes itself.

 

OP mentions the "victim". Victim? Explain yourself.

  boxfetish

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 81

5/08/13 1:57:29 AM#34
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by zeroumus

...a good game will not have stealth..

Stopped reading after this.

This. 

Also, if stealthers have to use camo, shadows, terrain etc. to approximate stealth, then players  who play casters need to chant Old Norse, Old English or Irish into a mic in order cast spells in the game.

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

5/08/13 7:19:54 AM#35
Originally posted by boxfetish
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by zeroumus

...a good game will not have stealth..

Stopped reading after this.

This. 

Also, if stealthers have to use camo, shadows, terrain etc. to approximate stealth, then players  who play casters need to chant Old Norse, Old English or Irish into a mic in order cast spells in the game.

You say that as if its completely absurd.. and while that specific implementation is certainly over the top, theres no real reason you couldnt have a game with spells being cast by selecting runes in a certain order or something along those lines.  Perhaps allowing different rune combinations to cause a spell to act in different ways (sort of like metamagic in DnD?).

 

MJ did say he wanted to make magic feel "more magical".

  Hersaint

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/03
Posts: 369

Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value. Albert Einstein(1879 - 1955)

5/08/13 7:28:07 AM#36

Real life is not a game. It is not fun to lose to an enemy that you cannot see or defend yourself against. It is no fun to have an invisible enemy attempt to kill you, miss the chance and then escape in a magical poof. Come back in 60 seconds and try again and again until they get it right and beat you.

I love strategy and ambush, hiding and surprising your enemy. Don't mess this up!

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

5/08/13 9:37:36 AM#37
Originally posted by Hersaint

Real life is not a game. It is not fun to lose to an enemy that you cannot see or defend yourself against. It is no fun to have an invisible enemy attempt to kill you, miss the chance and then escape in a magical poof. Come back in 60 seconds and try again and again until they get it right and beat you.

I love strategy and ambush, hiding and surprising your enemy. Don't mess this up!

I am unaware of any game which provided for the mechanic you described.  "An enemy you cannot see or defend yourself against" has nothing to do with stealth in any game I've seen (with the exception of DAoC in the EARLY days when Assassins could one-shot you and remained stealthed... which was quickly fixed.)

I have never seen a game which provided for the ability to move around and be completely undetectable.  Nor have I seen a game where stealthed toons were unable to be damaged or otherwise affected by any ability or spell. 

What you're describing would truly be a ridiculous mechanic for any class to have.  That said, let me clarify how stealthers worked in DAoC: 

The "Stealth" ability was a speccable skill line and cost a substantial amount of spec points to acquire.

Stealthers COULD be seen at close range while stealthed.

Stealthers COULD be targetted and attacked while stealthed.

Stealthers were ALWAYS vulnerable to AoE, even while stealthed.

Stealthers broke stealth when damaged and could NOT re-enter stealth for 9 seconds(?) unless using "vanish" which was on a long timer (and only available to Assassins.)  After breaking stealth, the entire stealth spec line became non-existent.

Stealthers broke stealth after attacking and could NOT re-enter stealth for 9 seconds(?) unless using "vanish" which was on a long timer (and only available to Assassins.)  After breaking stealth, the entire stealth spec line became non-existent.

With the exception of Scouts, Stealthers had NO speccable defense skills.

And most importantly, there were several skills, abilities, items, fonts and common sense strategies to counter stealth, specifically.

Honestly, the two things that made Stealthers annoying for visibles were: (1) The huge damage openers and (2) long duration stuns.  Neither of those two things were exclusive to stealthers, but stealthers enjoyed the advantage of the opportunity to land them, first.  How is that different from a Sorceror with an extremely long range mez and an insanely fast cast speed?

Seriously, this irrational fear/hate of stealth needs to be set aside so a useful and fun "stealth" system can be created.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  zeroumus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 54

 
OP  5/08/13 12:40:32 PM#38

I have not played every game,  but I tink you need to check what your smoking when you claim you have not seen any game where there is a class that has full invisability.

 

No Wow, GW2 or TF2 I take it?   and countless other games I would like to forget.

 

 

 

Side note,  I need to change my wording for clarity.   I have a problem with invisability in games,  stealth/cammo does not bother me at all.     I should call them invisable classes,  not stealth classes.

 

---

 

look,   people get real worked about about invis,   but really,  all I am asking for is that invis not be used as the only method of a sure kill.   As long as when someone drops out of invis and drops his power attack that its not a sure way to win,  then I am happy.

 

  The difficulty of setting the attack should NOT be the only thing that determines success unless the person getting attacked has some way to oppose getting set up for an attack.  Some claim that using AOE is the counter,   REALLY?   you mean SPAM?    Are you really suggesting that I should always place my AOE at and empty space everytime the cool down resets.    and I should do this every 30seconds for the rest of my gaming life, regardless of where I am in the game world.   Thats the counter,  really?

 

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

5/08/13 3:10:59 PM#39
Originally posted by zeroumus

I have not played every game,  but I tink you need to check what your smoking when you claim you have not seen any game where there is a class that has full invisability.

No Wow, GW2 or TF2 I take it?   and countless other games I would like to forget.

WoW and DAoC did NOT have full invisibility.  Stealthed toons were visible at close range.  But the larger point is the claim that a "victim" of a stealther had no way to fight back.  That is just idiocy.  The ONLY thing stealth allowed for was initiative or a first strike.  After that it is business as usual.

 

 

Side note,  I need to change my wording for clarity.   I have a problem with invisability in games,  stealth/cammo does not bother me at all.     I should call them invisable classes,  not stealth classes.

 Agreed.  However, DAoC and WoW did NOT HAVE INVISIBILITY!

---

 

look,   people get real worked about about invis,   but really,  all I am asking for is that invis not be used as the only method of a sure kill.   As long as when someone drops out of invis and drops his power attack that its not a sure way to win,  then I am happy.

Which is precisely what I said.  So, we agree here... eliminate the stuns and mitigate the huge openers.  And ask ANY stealther... there is no such thing as a "sure kill."

 

  The difficulty of setting the attack should NOT be the only thing that determines success unless the person getting attacked has some way to oppose getting set up for an attack.  Some claim that using AOE is the counter,   REALLY?   you mean SPAM?    Are you really suggesting that I should always place my AOE at and empty space everytime the cool down resets.    and I should do this every 30seconds for the rest of my gaming life, regardless of where I am in the game world.   Thats the counter,  really?

This is what pisses people off.  You bitch and moan about stealthers and then you bitch and moan about how to counter them.  "You want me to equip my shield EVERY TIME I get shot by an archer?  That's just bullshit!", "You mean I have to cast my bladeturn EVERY F*CKING TIME I leave the keep?  That is just bullshit!", "I am supposed to AVOID seemingly empty bridges when travelling alone?  That's just bullshit!"

That is the irrational hate/fear to which I referred, earlier.  Let it go, man.  This is a new game.

---

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

5/08/13 3:47:33 PM#40
Paranoia is a powerful game mechanic. Just throwing that out there.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

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