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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are we old farts a dying breed?

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359 posts found
  Centhan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/04
Posts: 485

5/01/13 11:47:47 AM#121

Good post.  We are dead and gone, and I've excepted that.  I'm part of the 40+ generation of gamers who played when games were actually challenging.  I don't know if society is being reflected in the modern games, or vice versa, but there is a connection there somewhere.  I do believe the smart phone, McDonaldized generation has missed out on a tons of things which build character and make the rewards gained from striving to achieve something all that much sweeter, whether it be in games or life.  All of this autopilot, mega-easy, mind numbingly boring game play that has come out in the past few years destroyed the genre for me to be honest.

I agree with you on your points, except for one thing.   I don't believe for a second that GW2 broke the WoW mold.  I think it epitomized it.  I played GW2  for about 3 months (2 months longer than I predicted) before quitting it last November and haven't played since.  It was very good for what it was.  Definitely fun for a short time, but still a McDonaldized version of an MMO, an era that really began with WoW.  The era of...see shiny point on map, go to it, kill the mob/collect your item, return to retrieve your reward, rinse and repeat until max level achieved, quit and find a new game.

For all of those hoping EQNext will be the savior for us old time EQ players, I say don't keep your hopes up.  It's mostly likely going to be the typical vending machine, watered down, see-shiny-and-click, soulless version of what EQ was (even more so than EQ2).  I was an EQ player, and very much enjoyed the time I spent there.  Many times I was surprised that I leveled because it just wasn't something that was primarily focused on, and you didn't play for the sole purpose of increasing some irrelevant number.  I loved the "harsh" penalty if you died, something that made you ultra careful with your actions and increased the intensity of the environment.  Some of the death runs I made to retrieve my corpse and equipment were the most memorable times I had in an game.  Which is one of the problems with the whiny, pampered mentality of today which is, "there is no failure, everyone wins", instead of "you learn more from your mistakes than you do from your successes".

I know I'm a pessimist with this opinion, but don't believe the genre or society will ever return from this instant gratification mindset that has been ingrained into the psyche of today's young  (short of a major revolution).  To simplify it, this is why "don't feed the bears" signs are posted all over state and national parks.  Once you give them easy food (i.e. that they don't have to work for) it's ultimately self-destructive to their own well being.

So what am I playing now for my MMO fix?  Ironically I have been playing Skyrim.  A single player, adventure game gives me the closest thing I can find with an MMO feel to it.  That's a pretty sad statement for the genre.

  Tjed

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

5/01/13 11:54:15 AM#122
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by Tjed

There is one thing that I don't understand, and perhaps I never will. The people who chimed in here to just pour salt in the wound. You obviously prefer the games that are being made right now. For you, that's awesome! It is your time to shine, you have many different games to choose from and you can try most of them for free. There also seems to be no end to the continuous stream of new games on the horizon that also fit what you would like to play.

Why is that not enough? I'm not talking about the people who discuss the actual topic which was presented as a question. I actually think the answer to that question might be yes, and it is a sad event for me. I have other hobbies that I will move to and in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal, however, there is a part of me that is really going to miss online gaming. It seems like some of you here would prefer that we did just die out and stop playing. It can't be because you feel that we are a threat to the games that you enjoy. Those games are here to stay, and as I said before, you are in your element right now and should probably be spending most of your time enjoying these games and less time brow beating those of us who don't have a game to enjoy.

Is it a sadistic thing? Did you wake up this morning and decide to just piss in someone's cheerios for the laughs? I really think that the market would support just one game that had a more old school approach. I know that we are a vocal minority, but I think there are 6 maybe 7 hundred thousand of us that would pay 15 a month to play something like this and that should keep the lights on. It doesn't have to be copy/paste EQ1 from 1999. Even I think that would be too much for most people to handle. Everything is just so far in the opposite direction that we don't even have anything that even resembles that.

So, serious question, What do you gain by coming into these threads, knowing what the subject matter will be by the title, and adding insult to injury?

It happens every time I have a go around with posting on this website, and I just don't understand the mentality.

 

Maybe because of the way the questions get posted. Us "young" people don't enjoy the "old farts" acting in an elitist manner and making it sound like they deserve something based on their age and how long they've been playing MMOs. That's not a good reason at all and won't convince any developers to make the game you want. Also because of the fact that they make it sound like they are so different. I'm not an "old fart" and would love some more complicated games to infuse the market. By even using the term "old farts" what people manage to do is exclude young people who may also want the same things. Basically, they hurt their own cause.

I don't see that at all. If anything, the term is self deprecating by it's very definition. I also don't see anything even the slightest bit elitist. It's people reminiscing about the older games and a longing for a game to come around that emulates that style of game play. When and where did anyone put an age limit on any hypothetical new game? When and where was the length of time that we have been playing these games valued over the content of the game?

In either case, nothing would make me happier than to play a throwback mmo with people younger than myself. As you point out, that is probably the only way it will ever happen.

 

 

  Superfly999

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/07
Posts: 5

5/01/13 11:58:11 AM#123

I for one miss the challenge in everything. You mentioned that even leveling once was an accomplishment. I LOVED this. I remember on video games when you leveled everyone said gratz because it really was a hurdle you just leaped. I miss Ultima online when you busted your ass to get certain gear whether from crafting or from monsters. I miss the fact that you could lose it all by being killed the very next moment!! 

That last part is VERY strange to me... We have this new gaming generation that loves instant gratification. I honestly believe most of that group is the new gamers/young gamers that came up not playing the games that we all use to. Most of them are highly opposed to the idea of being able to lose all your stuff or be seriously humiliated and actually putting some of your feelings into the game. This is where it gets strange to me... The main reason why I always here people don't want to have hardcore games/hard games/long leveling is because they don't have they time they use to. You'd expect this from the older generation crowd that grew up with these types of games... Yet whenever I talk to ANYONE or hear anything about these old games, they're always from that older crowd that experienced all these games in their prime and WANT them back to desperately. How does that work? Is it just a few minority that voice their oppinion that grew up during that age that don't want it back due to their daily lives? I for one am from that generation. I have almost no time what so ever anymore. Yet I still want one of these hardcore games. I won't be able to play much and all my time might be "wasted" due to me losing my armor or w/e, but at least I'd feel like I'm actually playing a game worth playing!! It isn't any fun with all these easy mode autopilot games. To me, thats the real time waster

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2967

5/01/13 11:58:55 AM#124
I would say there are fewer of we "Old time gamers" playing MMOs these days, but that is more a function of there being no "full featured" MMORPGs to play any more. Aside from EvE, there is not much left out there, so most of my friends have moved on to SPGs and back to P+P for the rpg fix. F2P and instanced Co-op everything can go rot as far as most of us are concerned.
  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

5/01/13 12:02:43 PM#125
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

You mean just like you entering every thread based on old school or older players and berrating them won't?

I, like many others, are just pointing out the reality of the situation.  It's not my fault that you'd rather live in a fantasy world.

And I, like many others, am just pointing out that many play  MMORPG's for that very purpose. Or did anyways, when they were virtual worlds and not linear quest funneled hand holder games. Played them BECAUSE they were fantasy worlds where you could escape the drudges of everyday life for hours at a time in a different type of game medium. It's just a different type of relaxation for some, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with a person for enjoying their game in such a way no more than someone who RP's...or someone who wants to just race through content and move on.

Sadly though because the market has ballooned beyond comprehension...that tiem is lost because there are WAY too many tooldbags more than happy to grief, troll, and find any way possible to ruin those types game time in their race to "end game". Which again, is a term that never has nor never will belong in the MMORPG genre.

Use to be about the journey not the destination. Now it's about the destination and how much you can get and how well known you can get along the way.

But it doesn't matter why you play to anyone but yourself.  Your reasons are yours.  In reality, you can only play games that are actually made and those games are going to be the ones that developers think will make them the greatest profit so they can pay back their investors.  Whether those games fit your criteria or not is entirely irrelevant.  You, as an individual, matter to no one but you.  That's something that you have to get through your head.  You don't have to like it, but it's reality.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

5/01/13 12:04:46 PM#126

Not dying out yet just marginalised by the expanded audience of MMORPGs  and attrittion of free time due to real life responsibilities.The days you yearn for were when the MMORPG community was a fe 100,000 strong and 99% PC gamers.Now the MMORPG market is made up of generations brought up on consoles and they want a different experience.

They also have been trained to accept Microtransactions and to sympathize with their corporate masters but that's a diffwerent story 8P.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

5/01/13 12:07:38 PM#127
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Cephus404
We keep getting these old farts (although I suspect most of them aren't very old) who think that they have a right to get the game they want whether it makes any money or not.  The kind of bizarre belief that they deserve something they want, just because they've been playing in the genre for a while leaves me shaking my head.


For me, at least (though I know there are plenty whose feet fit that shoe), I just want ONE game. Definitely NOT every MMO made as I would not play them all. There is a game here and there that has the spirit of the older games, but I have not found one yet that fits me.
Hey, I want a million dollars, doesn't mean I'm going to get it.  Nobody owes me a damn thing.  Nobody owes you a damn thing either.
Just think if a game could get, and hold onto, 250K or more players for over 1 year. Would that be profitable? I would hope so, as there were many, many games with less than that "way back when" that seemed to do OK. Wasn't it the Camelot Unchained guy that was shooting for 50K players to keep his game running after launch? Would the game I'd like to see have 250K players? We may never know...
The problem is, no investor would fund such a game to completion, they want a bigger return than that.

As far as "complaining and whining" on message boards goes, how else does a player make known what they look for in an MMORPG? Spam publishers? Write a blog that no one will ever read? Maybe start a YouTube channel that is equally ignored?

There's a difference between "making known" and "continually whining about the  same tired old subject over and over and over and over".  Trust me, we all know what old-school gamers want.  The fact remains though, no matter how many times it gets repeated, it's just not  going to happen.  There's a point at which people have to accept that the games they want will never get made and go do something else.

From your posts, I get the feeling that you need to take a break from all these posters who give you such headaches, that you feel the need to NOT talk about the subject matter (most of the time) and instead "complain and whine" about all the posters.

I'm just waiting for them to get a grasp on reality.  There are lots of things to talk about MMOs without every third thread being "waaah, I'm not getting the game I want!"

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Tjed

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

5/01/13 12:18:24 PM#128
Originally posted by Cephus404
 Trust me, we all know what old-school gamers want.  The fact remains though, no matter how many times it gets repeated, it's just not  going to happen.  There's a point at which people have to accept that the games they want will never get made and go do something else.

So, then your answer to the original question is yes. Yes we are dying out and we should just give up and stop trying. We should, as you so eloquently put it, get it through our heads.

This is really all you needed to type, the rest is just rubbing it in that there are plenty of games for you to play and none for us to play. Better yet, pay more attention to the title, and use that information to understand the subject matter and don't even open the thread. 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18256

5/01/13 1:22:40 PM#129
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sovrath

I don't mind quests, I just wihs they were more involved than just killing 5 of something.

Very few games have quests more involved than killing (or avoiding) stuff. Quests are just excuses to kill ... except some games dressed it up better than others.

Have you played bioshock infinite? Great game. Great story. But the core is that you kill, kill and kill, and go from point A to B.

MMOs just need to dress them up better .. and put some challenge in combat (which is not hard, if a ARPG can do it, MMO can too .. just put in a difficulty option like D3, and no one can says there is no challenge).

you are completely misunderstanding.

I don't mind fighting or killing. that's not an issue. At all. Ever.

What I do mind is runnign around and only fighting 4 things. then running again and fighting 5 things.

running around from quest objective to quest objective and doing very little once your reach the quest objective is not fun.

make the quest to kill 1 million things. that's fine with me. but what I don't want to do is spend the majority of my gameplay running around to fight less than a handful of things and then get sent across the map to do the same.

And whne I say I want better quests, I would rather have an open game world with modules where there is one entire quest the length of, say, dragon age origins. That's a quest.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22265

5/01/13 1:27:02 PM#130
Originally posted by Tjed
Originally posted by Cephus404
 Trust me, we all know what old-school gamers want.  The fact remains though, no matter how many times it gets repeated, it's just not  going to happen.  There's a point at which people have to accept that the games they want will never get made and go do something else.

Really? I am a pretty old-school gamer. My first CRPG is Ultima 3, and my first MMORPG is Kingdom of Drakkar, then UO, then EQ.

And what i want .. is happening left and right. Finally MMOs are becoming better games. So don't think all older timers want the same stuff.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22265

5/01/13 1:28:46 PM#131
Originally posted by Sovrath

make the quest to kill 1 million things. that's fine with me. but what I don't want to do is spend the majority of my gameplay running around to fight less than a handful of things and then get sent across the map to do the same.

And whne I say I want better quests, I would rather have an open game world with modules where there is one entire quest the length of, say, dragon age origins. That's a quest.

 

Then what is a handful? Killing 5 rats is a handful, how about killing 20 fanatics? I have seen that.

And quests has nothing to do with open game world. Plenty of SP games have great quests without an open game world. It is, again, about how killing is dressed up. Nothing more, nothing less.

  severius

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/04
Posts: 1532

5/01/13 1:29:02 PM#132

Many years ago I remember playing with some friends outside when this old crazy dude burst out of his house yelling at us and throwing ice cubes because we were too damn loud.  A couple of weeks ago I was sitting watching some nonsense on tv when the sounds of screaming and play come in from outside.  I got up and went to open the door to yell at em to shut the hell up when I realized, damn dude, I'm bout to become that old crazy dude.  Turned around and went back to what I was doing and the noise went away.  I take solace in the fact that a few years from now there will some other old crazy dude, who was one of the kids I was about to yell at, themselves about to yell at a bunch of damned kids.

We old farts never go away, when one of us dies there is someone else to take our place.


  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5213

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/01/13 1:31:15 PM#133

I secretly cant' wait to do that.

I think it would be so much fun to hide behind a wall, or in my garage and when the kids come running across the lawn, to break the hose out and watch them run screaming.

Of course I hope they come back with water guns and pales of water of their own too :)

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18256

5/01/13 1:31:41 PM#134
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sovrath

make the quest to kill 1 million things. that's fine with me. but what I don't want to do is spend the majority of my gameplay running around to fight less than a handful of things and then get sent across the map to do the same.

And whne I say I want better quests, I would rather have an open game world with modules where there is one entire quest the length of, say, dragon age origins. That's a quest.

 

Then what is a handful? Killing 5 rats is a handful, how about killing 20 fanatics? I have seen that.

And quests has nothing to do with open game world. Plenty of SP games have great quests without an open game world. It is, again, about how killing is dressed up. Nothing more, nothing less.

20 is better than 5.

I can't understand why you are not understanding what I'm saying?

I'll break it down:

running around more than you are doing anything is tedious.

having a long quest such as one that is as involved as my example, dragonage origins or pick your game is "a quest". If mmo's had these quests as modules, I would rather do one of those every 2 years or however long it took to make them than 5000 of the same kill 5 things"with" all the running.

I'd rather kill 20 thigns than 5 things. I'd rather kill 100 things than 20 things.

I already said I don't mind fighting. I don't want running, doing "only" 5 kills and then running again.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22265

5/01/13 1:36:52 PM#135
Originally posted by Sovrath

I already said I don't mind fighting. I don't want running, doing "only" 5 kills and then running again.

Great . i think i understand you now.

So D3 will be your perfect game. You get to kill a LOT. In fact, you can kill 20+ with just one attack (and at the same time, you can die too). It is a perfect balance of feeling poweful, and having challenges.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18256

5/01/13 1:46:19 PM#136
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sovrath

I already said I don't mind fighting. I don't want running, doing "only" 5 kills and then running again.

Great . i think i understand you now.

So D3 will be your perfect game. You get to kill a LOT. In fact, you can kill 20+ with just one attack (and at the same time, you can die too). It is a perfect balance of feeling poweful, and having challenges.

And throw in an open world for pvp, territory control, meeting people on the road and helping them, etc.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22265

5/01/13 1:57:00 PM#137
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sovrath

I already said I don't mind fighting. I don't want running, doing "only" 5 kills and then running again.

Great . i think i understand you now.

So D3 will be your perfect game. You get to kill a LOT. In fact, you can kill 20+ with just one attack (and at the same time, you can die too). It is a perfect balance of feeling poweful, and having challenges.

And throw in an open world for pvp, territory control, meeting people on the road and helping them, etc.

None of those things have anything to do with fighting. I thought you said you like fighting as long as you are fighting a lot of mobs?

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2343

5/01/13 2:01:37 PM#138
Originally posted by Sovrath

I'd rather kill 20 thigns than 5 things. I'd rather kill 100 things than 20 things.

I already said I don't mind fighting. I don't want running, doing "only" 5 kills and then running again.

It's kinda weird to encounter somone with such a diametricly opposed view on this.  Killing 10 of the same mob at a time is probably the limit of what keeps me challenged.  At that point I have mostly 'solvd' the mob and my brain needs a new challenge.  At 20 kills I start feeling like my intelligence is dropping and I am watching Jerry Springer.  The only time I seem to be able to grind the same mobs for hours is when I am depressed and just want my brain to go numb.  The only way I can compensate by posing more and more elaborate challenges to myself in the way I kill the mobs.  Once that stops working I burn out. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22265

5/01/13 2:05:24 PM#139
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Sovrath

I'd rather kill 20 thigns than 5 things. I'd rather kill 100 things than 20 things.

I already said I don't mind fighting. I don't want running, doing "only" 5 kills and then running again.

It's kinda weird to encounter somone with such a diametricly opposed view on this.  Killing 10 of the same mob at a time is probably the limit of what keeps me challenged.  At that point I have mostly 'solvd' the mob and my brain needs a new challenge.  At 20 kills I start feeling like my intelligence is dropping and I am watching Jerry Springer.  The only time I seem to be able to grind the same mobs for hours is when I am depressed and just want my brain to go numb.  The only way I can compensate by posing more and more elaborate challenges to myself in the way I kill the mobs.  Once that stops working I burn out. 

It really depends on the combat mechanics. As they say, quantity is a quality of its own.

If 20 mobs will rush you and surround you, then it is much more challenging to fight 20, then 10. This is particularly true if mobs have range attacks. 20 pounding on you at the same time, is NOT the same as 5 or 10.

 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16589

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/01/13 2:07:47 PM#140
I just think it's weird to consider it the "kids" who want it all fast and streamlined. When i was in my early 20's (when i started MMO's in 02), i had all the time I could need to play games like DAOC or SWG. Today I don't have close to that same amount of carefree free time. While I could still play something like SWG. I could not put nearly enough into it to reap the reward of spending that time in game. Which is what you were rewarded for in those days (massive amounts of time spent).

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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