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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are we old farts a dying breed?

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359 posts found
  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 2194

4/30/13 6:48:53 PM#41

The average age of gamers has consistently gone up with the NES generation.

It's actually people around my age (30) who are the majority and like others have mentioned, as that group of gamers gets older and has more responsibilities they have been drawn to more accessible games. Gone are the days of high school when I could devote 3-5 days to grind out a level, same goes for many others.

I'm all for a virtual world, and I know it can be done, but it can't be done in the old style. It has to be a world in which someone can log in and do something fun for a couple hours.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5232

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/30/13 6:52:34 PM#42
Originally posted by Rusque

The average age of gamers has consistently gone up with the NES generation.

It's actually people around my age (30) who are the majority and like others have mentioned, as that group of gamers gets older and has more responsibilities they have been drawn to more accessible games. Gone are the days of high school when I could devote 3-5 days to grind out a level, same goes for many others.

I'm all for a virtual world, and I know it can be done, but it can't be done in the old style. It has to be a world in which someone can log in and do something fun for a couple hours.

 Yes, and just to stop the casual, instant crap people will spew, this doesn't mean that it can't take years to max level (if it has levels) or hours to do do a dungeon.

It just means that all the long parts have to be broken up in ways that lets people do them in segments without punishing them.

Get an epic quest like in Istaria or EQ that days days/months to finsih.  Have a 15 hour dungeon that is broken up into 30 minute segments with safe zones, or maybe portals to safezones you've reached.  There are hundreds of ways to do this.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 5260

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 6:53:43 PM#43
Originally posted by Rusque

. Gone are the days of high school when I could devote 3-5 days to grind out a level, same goes for many others.

 

there's plenty of people in high schools presently. Why arent they doing what you did then ?

 

did the high school as an institution stop existing or...I don't get it.

 

what do YOU growing up have to do with the genre? there's generations that followed you...

  jesteralways

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 828

4/30/13 6:57:42 PM#44
Originally posted by stromp45
Originally posted by Torgrim

We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.

Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.

And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.

Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?

Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.

Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.

So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?

 

I know how you feel i rember in eq if you die the long cr runs and loseing lvs like one time in growth raid wiped and had a 13 hour cr run was afraid we would all lose our stuff til a few druids came to help us. but i hate to say it those days are over with if half these kids had to wait 13 hours to get there equip back most would rage quit. and god forbid you just hit max lv and died and lost your lv that took you a week to get with hours and hours of play.

so you spent 13 hours in a raid and feel proud of it? i am glad i only play games to have fun and socialize and meet people who love games like me and NOT to make gaming my life. i am also glad i never played Everquest MMO and only played the Everquest co-op ps2 version, glad i didn't have that kind of internet back then to waste 13 hours in raid too. . i might have become "old fart" like you guys.

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

4/30/13 7:03:37 PM#45
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Normandy7
Agreed. The younger generation wants the instant gratification instead of earning it. They think it is called grind when you don't accomplish something within 2 hours. MMOs are about the journey to the destination and if it takes me over a year to reach that then so be it. Atleast I know my money was well spent. Today it is about paying to be super powerful and clear the game in a weekend. Pretty pathetic!

It isn't the younger generation, it's all generations, yours included.  It's just that MMOs started as a very small niche, once WoW came along, a huge number of *YOUR* generation who wanted instant gratification came along and started playing MMOs.  You act like there's something wrong with them when the truth is, you're the one who falls outside of the norm.  What's wrong with you?

if everyone says 2+2=5...are you insane for stating otherwise ?

 

Orwell...had a point.

We're not talking about facts, we're talking about opinions and, like it or not, your opinion lost the overall battle.  The industry went in a different direction because that's where the majority of players and majority of the money was.  You can be unhappy about that all you like, but that's the reality.  These are the games that are being made today.  Take it or leave it, but whatever you do, stop whining about it.  It's annoying and it won't get you anywhere.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Mikeha

Elite Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 5019

Playing: Aion

4/30/13 7:10:30 PM#46
Thats why I still play a 10 year old game that most would call a Korean grinder but to me it still has the main things that make a real mmo. Those things are a real open seamless world, long meaningful character progression and gameplay where you have to be social and group with other people.These types of mmos are simply not being made right now but I do think they are comming back. I have never liked Western mmo as they are all based around solo quest hub gameplay. I am stil playing Lineage 2 while looking forward to games like ArcheAge, Black Deserts and Bless. Stop supporting these poor excuses for mmos.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 5260

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 7:11:03 PM#47
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Normandy7
Agreed. The younger generation wants the instant gratification instead of earning it. They think it is called grind when you don't accomplish something within 2 hours. MMOs are about the journey to the destination and if it takes me over a year to reach that then so be it. Atleast I know my money was well spent. Today it is about paying to be super powerful and clear the game in a weekend. Pretty pathetic!

It isn't the younger generation, it's all generations, yours included.  It's just that MMOs started as a very small niche, once WoW came along, a huge number of *YOUR* generation who wanted instant gratification came along and started playing MMOs.  You act like there's something wrong with them when the truth is, you're the one who falls outside of the norm.  What's wrong with you?

if everyone says 2+2=5...are you insane for stating otherwise ?

 

Orwell...had a point.

We're not talking about facts, we're talking about opinions and, like it or not, your opinion lost the overall battle.  The industry went in a different direction because that's where the majority of players and majority of the money was.  You can be unhappy about that all you like, but that's the reality.  These are the games that are being made today.  Take it or leave it, but whatever you do, stop whining about it.  It's annoying and it won't get you anywhere.

what if the reality is I want to whine ?

 

or does that argument only work in your favor ? 

  Axehilt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 8399

4/30/13 7:25:18 PM#48

I've always considered early MMORPG veterans to be the "damn kids".  After a while they were kicked "off the lawn" by the rise of gameplay-focused MMORPGs.

The old men are the ones who played pre-MMORPG games.  The ones who understood when a game was or wasn't deliberately wasting our time with downtime, travel, and tedium.  Only after the genre stopped wasting our time with these empty mechanics did we stick around and start playing MMORPGs in earnest.

Call me old-fashioned, but games should be about fun.  And new MMORPGs are more fun (even though many MMORPGs seem to fail to even match WOW's gameplay quality, let alone surpass it.)

"Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  TheJoda

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 492

"Yes...... that's a Duck Staff of D00M!!!"

4/30/13 7:26:38 PM#49
Originally posted by Torgrim

We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.

Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.

And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.

Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?

Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.

Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.

So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?

 

......yes we are, but there are some game that might give some of us a "home" again.  AA, EQnext.......time will tell!

....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/30/13 7:32:14 PM#50
Originally posted by Gravarg

I had a thread about this several months back (that's where I got my spotlight poster title weee lol), and I said back then that the instant gratification ruins the MMO experience.

 

If you like the following you might be a MMO player:

- Going into a forest or mine for hours to gather materials for crafting.

You can do this today in most games.

- Sitting at a workstation for hours turning wood and ore into something you can use.

I remember doing this in SWG and it wasn't fun. SOE knew it wasn't fun and thats why they turned a blind eye to people botting. Just a time sink that served no real purpose other than wasting time.

- Sitting somewhere crafting for hours on end, just to get 1/4 of a level in a craft.

Another boring time sink.

- Takes a year or more to get to the level cap.

I'm old and I'm an MMORPG player and yet I have no desire to play a game that takes a year of grinding to level. It is yet another stupid tink sink mechanic. I would rather have the leveling go quickly and have a "end game" that doesnt end. Much like SWG's.

- Killing so many "insert monster here" that people make comics and jokes about it...yet still you didn't level up.

Once again a grind. Why the hell would you want to grind to level? Yes, please let me kill the same mobs over and over and over again.

- Grouping up to take on higher level enemies for bonus experience.

This was fun and it is something that I do miss.

- Grouping up just to survive the trip to the next town.

Another one thats not horrible.

- Grouping just for the sake of playing with friends, even if you could do it yourself.

Can still do that today in modern MMO's

- Death penalties that actually hurt.  Loss of experience and/or lots of resources...or even your gear.

Item decay was the best solution. So it started to break even when you didn't die.

- Having to go to a wiki or guide site to print out a map of the game world, because you're lost all the time.

Not fun for me. I will take an in game map that shows me where the quests or quest mobs are. You accomplish the same thing just with out alt tabbing.

- Doing nothing but sitting in a bank, pub, house, or some other place just chatting with people.

If thats your thing. It's not mine. I want to play a game not sit and talk. I can sit and talk with people for free.

  Smikis

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/04
Posts: 1074

4/30/13 7:41:45 PM#51

those times when everyone on the server knew you, when enemy respected you enough not to attack even if they were 2v1,

when you could make a fortune out of crafting because everyone knew you are that guy with that rare recipe

when you rushed to endgame and upon reachin that played with bunch of people you knew, or if you didnt you made new friends

when making group was about asking everyone if they want to come, instead of 30s queue time

 

i miss all of those, even with todays mmorpgs if game was made hard enough half of that could come back, thats why i am looking forwards wildstar, its modern aaa mmorpg but  it focuses on those old things, like being hard

 

heck i didnt play mmorpg properly ( apart beta there and here ) for years now, there just isnt anything that would be a world

i am all up for those 30-60 min gaming sessions but those are not in mmorpgs, i really hate when mmo devs say , yes login for 15 mins do quick pvp match, run quick isntance, THE FUCK IF I HAVE 15 mins only, i would never play game in those 15 mins, go online, read news, watch youtube, brownse random stuff, never a game , never a mmorpg

  Mikeha

Elite Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 5019

Playing: Aion

4/30/13 7:42:36 PM#52
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by Gravarg

I had a thread about this several months back (that's where I got my spotlight poster title weee lol), and I said back then that the instant gratification ruins the MMO experience.

 

If you like the following you might be a MMO player:

- Going into a forest or mine for hours to gather materials for crafting.

You can do this today in most games.

- Sitting at a workstation for hours turning wood and ore into something you can use.

I remember doing this in SWG and it wasn't fun. SOE knew it wasn't fun and thats why they turned a blind eye to people botting. Just a time sink that served no real purpose other than wasting time.

- Sitting somewhere crafting for hours on end, just to get 1/4 of a level in a craft.

Another boring time sink.

- Takes a year or more to get to the level cap.

I'm old and I'm an MMORPG player and yet I have no desire to play a game that takes a year of grinding to level. It is yet another stupid tink sink mechanic. I would rather have the leveling go quickly and have a "end game" that doesnt end. Much like SWG's.

- Killing so many "insert monster here" that people make comics and jokes about it...yet still you didn't level up.

Once again a grind. Why the hell would you want to grind to level? Yes, please let me kill the same mobs over and over and over again.

- Grouping up to take on higher level enemies for bonus experience.

This was fun and it is something that I do miss.

- Grouping up just to survive the trip to the next town.

Another one thats not horrible.

- Grouping just for the sake of playing with friends, even if you could do it yourself.

Can still do that today in modern MMO's

- Death penalties that actually hurt.  Loss of experience and/or lots of resources...or even your gear.

Item decay was the best solution. So it started to break even when you didn't die.

- Having to go to a wiki or guide site to print out a map of the game world, because you're lost all the time.

Not fun for me. I will take an in game map that shows me where the quests or quest mobs are. You accomplish the same thing just with out alt tabbing.

- Doing nothing but sitting in a bank, pub, house, or some other place just chatting with people.

If thats your thing. It's not mine. I want to play a game not sit and talk. I can sit and talk with people for free.

 

 

This thread is simply not for people like you. I could give a damn if I ever reach level cap in a mmo. That will never be the reason why I play a mmo. I simply want a mmo that I have fun playing everday and keeps me coming back for more.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

4/30/13 7:45:16 PM#53
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Normandy7
Agreed. The younger generation wants the instant gratification instead of earning it. They think it is called grind when you don't accomplish something within 2 hours. MMOs are about the journey to the destination and if it takes me over a year to reach that then so be it. Atleast I know my money was well spent. Today it is about paying to be super powerful and clear the game in a weekend. Pretty pathetic!

It isn't the younger generation, it's all generations, yours included.  It's just that MMOs started as a very small niche, once WoW came along, a huge number of *YOUR* generation who wanted instant gratification came along and started playing MMOs.  You act like there's something wrong with them when the truth is, you're the one who falls outside of the norm.  What's wrong with you?

if everyone says 2+2=5...are you insane for stating otherwise ?

 

Orwell...had a point.

 Take it or leave it, but whatever you do, stop whining about it.  It's annoying and it won't get you anywhere.

You mean just like you entering every thread based on old school or older players and berrating them won't?

 

In response to the OP's question. Unfortunately yes it seems.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 5260

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 7:55:23 PM#54

Axe, your definition of fun is not universal.

 

without being fully serious but since I feel the below statement is relevant...

I like mining in EVE, your argument is invalid.

 

politely put, if you tell a consumer "games should be about fun" he'll probably say "that's too general, what are you selling again?".

 

Let me tell you about a genuinely fun moment I ha in world of warcraft. early in tier 13, (first week of hardmodes) we reach heroic yor'sahj. As we do the first pulls, just to see what's up and we begin to grasp the size of the challenge ahead, there is LAUGHTER in mumble. Literarly people laughing. The ammount of damage that happened if we didn't hit a benchmark or screwed up a position was extremely high.

 

people...were getting hopelessly killed...and laughing about it.

 

after many attempts we had several sub 1% pulls the night before the nerf, then we 2-shot it post nerf. that's a sad story. But that's not what I'm trying here to say.

 

"fun"... can come in the form of being amused by how big of a challenge is ahead of you. Fun can come from overcoming it...or fun can come from how easy something was. Don't assume your fun is the only fun.

 

edit: very very old video, but same concept protrayed here. They're having fun. Nothing to debate about that. maybe if it happens over and over they won't but for now they sure are. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByXS73L38Ic

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2829

World > Quest Progression

4/30/13 8:00:53 PM#55
I don't think we're a dying breed, in fact development outlook seems to be meandering to a deeper world. It seems people stick around longer if they feel connected to a world, big surprise, and the quota for quick in/out MMOs is full. Good times :)
  Stimos8

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 175

4/30/13 8:13:29 PM#56
Here's the problem OP, your idea of a game is no better than alot of face roll games we have today. To much farming and a year to get to max level playing everyday is absolutely rediculous, yeah it should take a while, otherwise there shouldnt even be levels, which is viable as well. But the worth of a game isnt how long it takes you to do a specific thing, its what the specific thing is actually like, in turn, the content. So just like you have an opinion that the better game is one of farming, and the tedious mind numbing repetetive pushing of buttons over and over, there are others who prefer to not do that, but instead, do the complete opposite. I personally disagree with both, why cant games be extremely versatile and variable, but at the same time, have enough content to keep everyone happy?
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

4/30/13 8:16:44 PM#57
Originally posted by Torgrim

So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?

 

"instant gratification generation"?

Just join them. We are talking about entertainment here ... nothing wrong with some fast fun. Personally, i am not going back to the days where playing a MMO means "waiting, waiting, and more waiting" as gameplay. If you want to call that "instant gratification" .. then i will fully embrace it.

  jinxxed0

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 847

4/30/13 8:19:03 PM#58

I tend to think so. Just the other day I was talking to people in an MMO about how I wished game devs would start making games that didn't just hand out rewards for doing very little in the game. I want an mmo that will take literally multiple years just to hit max level/become really powerful. An mmo with no end game content. An MMO where you can't just solo all the way through. I'm one of the people of the mindset. If you want to solo, why play solo all the time (of course that arguement is dead thanks to games like Guild Wars 2 where 90% of the player base solos using that horrid "auto teaming" feature that causes people to more anti social than ever.

 

Everyone pretty much lashed out saying that they don't want grindfests. It's like they fail to see what I was talking about. Most people don't seem to see the potential a truely great MMO can have. The perfect example is the show Sword Art Online (I know, I know, just hear me out). The reason why MMO players love the idea of Sword Art Online is because it's an mmo that is played/made the way MMOs are supposed to made/played. I'm NOT talking about the "tower climbing" and fight a boss aspect of the game. I'm talking about the other aspects of the game:

 

-Not everyone is a powerful hero/fighter. You have people that just play as a chef, fisherman, shopkeeper etc. Some people actually find it enjoyable to play as an individual and not a carbon copy of every other player playing the same person (like in Tera, GW 1 and 2, and all these pther games with premade stories). If you want to be the hero, go out and try. If you want to be the villain, go out and try. If you want to be a blacksmith who isn't powerful wizard/warrior/whatever you should be able to do that. MMOs need to stop trying to cater to the Single Player/console crowd. They wont stick around long enough to help maintain the game anyway. Look at whats happening to the industry now.

 

-Interacting with players was required. In Sword Art, fighting with other was a must. Yeah there were solo players, but even then Kiroto had to rely on others. they had to use preplan and use tactic and change tactics when needed. In modern MMOs it's just damager, heal, tank and if we happen to have buffs and debuffs that's nice too. I remember playing Lineage 2 and Ever Quest and actually having to tand and talk with a raid team for at least 10 minutes to 40 minutes sometimes coming up with tactics and sometimes waiting for people to get to a certain level so they'd have such and such skill. We even did practice runs. Seriously, you aren't going to alienate the people that will stick with the game long term. Rewarding people for teaming is a good thing. When you have content that's 100% soloable you just draw in the crowd that plays for a month or two never chatting and eventually move on. The only positive thing about the TES: Online is they're dividing the server so that people who want to team will be on one instance. Hopefully it wont be the default.

 

-There is no mainstory or main questline to follow. You make your own story.

I'm extremely sick of people saying they want a good story in MMOs. Really? You want to make your own character, decide who it is, what it does, etc etc yet you want it's story to be played out for you? On top of that it's story is the same as everyone else. Everyone is the same hero is friends with the army commander, or who is best friends with some homeless guy, or who is the great *lone* hero of the city. I'd rather make my character and play out my own story. If I want to help an NPC I can or can't, if I want to be a hero, I want to earn that title by actually being the hero of that town. I don't want to be artificially known by NPCs, but by other players for whatever it is I do, or maybe I want to be an unknown tree logger trying to find wealth and friends.

 

 

There's some more but this post is already way too long. My point is that most people don't want these things. They only want: fast leveling, exciting end game content yet they have no idea what it could be but someone should figure it out and make it, instant rewards, their hand held by the developer while the premade story continues down a narrow path, and they don't want to have to team to get things done because they don't want to wait on others. 

 

I really hope these people get tired of MMOs and move on so that mmo devs can get back to making MMOs and not massive single player-feeling games.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/30/13 8:24:02 PM#59

This thread is simply not for people like you. I could give a damn if I ever reach level cap in a mmo. That will never be the reason why I play a mmo. I simply want a mmo that I have fun playing everday and keeps me coming back for more.

What is a person like me? I also want a MMO that I enjoy playing everyday. I just prefer a sandbox end game over an endless grind for xp. Why should it take a year of killing the same damn things over and over again for me to hit max level? How is that fun at all? I would rather reach the part of the game where I play it the way I want to with out having to even think about XP.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 5260

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 8:31:51 PM#60
Originally posted by GreenHell

This thread is simply not for people like you. I could give a damn if I ever reach level cap in a mmo. That will never be the reason why I play a mmo. I simply want a mmo that I have fun playing everday and keeps me coming back for more.

What is a person like me? I also want a MMO that I enjoy playing everyday. I just prefer a sandbox end game over an endless grind for xp. Why should it take a year of killing the same damn things over and over again for me to hit max level? How is that fun at all? I would rather reach the part of the game where I play it the way I want to with out having to even think about XP.

what if the game can achieve this before level cap and leveling becomes just a bonus on top of 'playing the game' and doing what you want ?

 

this simple concept is why you and the guy you quoted don't see eye to eye...you think reaching level cap was doing what you're doing to reach level cap only 100 times longer. He thinks reaching level cap is not essential if he can do at any level what you do at level cap.

 

i guarantee you two won't agree ever if this isn't clear. you're talking about different things.

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