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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "Free to play" really just means "we're not going to tell you how much we intend to make you pay or how you'll be crippled if you don't."

18 Pages First « 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 » Last Search
342 posts found
  Fdzzaigl

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 2112

5/01/13 10:46:42 AM#101

It is indeed often pretty unclear how much you actually need to pay to be competitive in a game.

Personally, I'd prefer F2P games just saying up front that you can play this far and that content XYZ (like raids / endgame PvP zones / new content) is paid for.

Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/01/13 10:47:35 AM#102
Originally posted by Onomas

F2P games are not free, people are blind.

Do you honestly think someone would come up with an idea, produce it, and advertize it only to give it away free?

You are either going to be gimped or pay out the butt in the cash shop. Either of those choices just suxx

Yes. They already give a large part away for free. How is playing a free part of a free game sux? Given where the market is going, a lot of players obviously do not agree with you.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/01/13 10:47:54 AM#103
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Four0Six
 

"F2P" will never become a derogatory term, because peeps love "free".

Here is a tip from a skeptic, me, "Nothing is free".


 

Fun is free if you have self-control. I do. Play lots of F2P games for free for a while already.

 Oh thank god, someone else with self-control over their wallet!


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2325

5/01/13 10:48:05 AM#104
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Disdena

I used to love playing Mega Man. Then I found out you could buy a thing called Game Genie to get infinite lives. Now I hate Mega Man; I don't want to pay money for a Game Genie, so my version of the game is "crippled" because I only have 3 lives.

 

Judge the game sans cash shop on its own merits. Don't worry about what other people are doing, and don't worry about how much easier the game would be if you paid for help. The idea that the normal mode of a game can be crippled by the mere existence of an optional alternate way of playing is ludicrous.

Is it? (It is a bit different when talking about MMOs where you/your character is compared to others.)

Just wait til the alternate way becomes the norm. How many people that play EVE have two or more accounts so they can run more profitable operations solo? Well, most people I know do. So if I don't then I am crippled and unable to make enough credits so effortlessly to buy PLEX. My income gets crippled for not paying more.

No F2P but still an advantage can be bought.

 You will never be able to win with this happening (and it happens in every game Subrscription and Free-to-Play) however, this does not stop people from still enjoying the game. So in your mind you're crippled however in someone elses they're playing the game to their advantage and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

You are completely avoiding that if it is the norm, ie. nearly everyone but not you has the advantage, then you are at a disadvantage most of the time.

Not talking about "winning".

Not talking about "enjoying".

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/01/13 10:49:40 AM#105
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Generally speaking

Yeah f2p means we are going to pick your pockets later.

But recently we've seen some fairer free play models like gw2 and ps2.

So where,as once I was vehemently anti f2p, now I recognise there are a handful of games that do f2p right.

I think that is because of competition. This is the internet age. If you are going to pick players pocket, people will find out and go to your competition.

 

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/01/13 10:52:08 AM#106
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Disdena

I used to love playing Mega Man. Then I found out you could buy a thing called Game Genie to get infinite lives. Now I hate Mega Man; I don't want to pay money for a Game Genie, so my version of the game is "crippled" because I only have 3 lives.

 

Judge the game sans cash shop on its own merits. Don't worry about what other people are doing, and don't worry about how much easier the game would be if you paid for help. The idea that the normal mode of a game can be crippled by the mere existence of an optional alternate way of playing is ludicrous.

Is it? (It is a bit different when talking about MMOs where you/your character is compared to others.)

Just wait til the alternate way becomes the norm. How many people that play EVE have two or more accounts so they can run more profitable operations solo? Well, most people I know do. So if I don't then I am crippled and unable to make enough credits so effortlessly to buy PLEX. My income gets crippled for not paying more.

No F2P but still an advantage can be bought.

 You will never be able to win with this happening (and it happens in every game Subrscription and Free-to-Play) however, this does not stop people from still enjoying the game. So in your mind you're crippled however in someone elses they're playing the game to their advantage and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

You are completely avoiding that if it is the norm, ie. nearly everyone but not you has the advantage, then you are at a disadvantage most of the time.

I'm not avoiding it. I'm stating that you'll never be better than the guy who has 5-10 accounts on a subscription game or pays 500-1000 on a free-to-play game. You have to race with your wallet and I'm sorry if you don't understand this. However, I understand fully that I'm not going to race with my wallet. In fact, if you read this magical thing in my signature. I state exactly what you're accusing me of not knowing, "Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you."

 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Kuviski

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/13/12
Posts: 186

5/01/13 10:53:08 AM#107
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Kuviski
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

I kind of hope it will, because in games where the Free-to-Play and Pay-to-Play players are not kept on, say, separate servers so that they don't compete in the game directly, the term F2P tends to always mean nothing but "free trial".

 

I'm expecting people will learn what the term really stands for soon enough, after all the F2P boom is quite a new phenomena, and when that happens, marketeers will understand they have to change their strategy and quit using the word.

 A new phenomena? Are you kidding? Have you been living under a rock? Free-to-play has existed for almost as long as the MMO genre has. What are you talking about? It's only until now that the western companies have realised how much they've hindered their success by using subscription vs. free-to-play.

I said the F2P boom is a new phenomena (in the West, obviously), not that F2P itself is new. Also, I don't think sub fees hinder success if the game type is right. Subscriptions work better than F2P, even for profit, in some games I am sure. Games such as Darkfall.

It also depends on what type of a game the developer wants to make. Because making the change from P2P to F2P in most cases completely changes the feel of a game (take LOTRO for example). There's a game I personally stopped playing when it became F2P.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/01/13 10:55:13 AM#108
Originally posted by Kuviski
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Kuviski
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

I kind of hope it will, because in games where the Free-to-Play and Pay-to-Play players are not kept on, say, separate servers so that they don't compete in the game directly, the term F2P tends to always mean nothing but "free trial".

 

I'm expecting people will learn what the term really stands for soon enough, after all the F2P boom is quite a new phenomena, and when that happens, marketeers will understand they have to change their strategy and quit using the word.

 A new phenomena? Are you kidding? Have you been living under a rock? Free-to-play has existed for almost as long as the MMO genre has. What are you talking about? It's only until now that the western companies have realised how much they've hindered their success by using subscription vs. free-to-play.

I said the F2P boom is a new phenomena (in the West, obviously), not that F2P itself is new. Also, I don't think sub fees hinder success if the game type is right. Subscriptions work better than F2P, even for profit, in some games I am sure. Games such as Darkfall.

It also depends on what type of a game the developer wants to make. Because making the change from P2P to F2P in most cases completely changes the feel of a game (take LOTRO for example). There's a game I personally stopped playing when it became F2P.

 Maybe I'm different, maybe that's just it. Maybe it's the fact that I like the challenge of being "weaker" than the guy with the bigger wallet.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/01/13 10:56:57 AM#109
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Generally speaking

Yeah f2p means we are going to pick your pockets later.

But recently we've seen some fairer free play models like gw2 and ps2.

So where,as once I was vehemently anti f2p, now I recognise there are a handful of games that do f2p right.

I think that is because of competition. This is the internet age. If you are going to pick players pocket, people will find out and go to your competition.

 

 Which is why many Western companies understand this and tend to not lean towards pay-to-win with a free-to-play model.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5913

5/01/13 10:57:17 AM#110
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Disdena

I used to love playing Mega Man. Then I found out you could buy a thing called Game Genie to get infinite lives. Now I hate Mega Man; I don't want to pay money for a Game Genie, so my version of the game is "crippled" because I only have 3 lives.

 

Judge the game sans cash shop on its own merits. Don't worry about what other people are doing, and don't worry about how much easier the game would be if you paid for help. The idea that the normal mode of a game can be crippled by the mere existence of an optional alternate way of playing is ludicrous.

For a single-player game in which you don't interact with anyone else, you can do that.  If someone else can come by and easily kill you because he's bought a bunch of item mall stuff, then it's kind of hard to ignore that.  Ditto if you get kicked from groups or guilds because you aren't loaded up with item mall stuff.

Now, you can say, not all "free to play" games will be like that.  But some are, and that's part of the problem:  it's not trivial to tell which ones are.  Even if you can see that a sword in the item mall offers 100 attack power, you don't know if that far better than anything that you can get apart from the item mall, or if you'll commonly get stuff much better in the normal course of playing the game.  With a subscription game, you don't have to worry about that.

It's not trivial to tell what any game does with its mechanics.  Do you know all the rules in a sub-locked pvp game before you play?  Do you have any confidence they'll never change?  Do you know how pve content is going to work?  Can rest on the promise those mechanics will never change?

I'm not sure what you think to accomplish by creating a fake dilemma (ie: there is no "problem") where we need to think of the victims who can't sort it out.  Oddly enough, despite your deep and continued confusion over what free to play means and the potential for abuse, many millions of people sort this out and enjoy them.

I'm curious if this has anything to do with your own game development.  When people moralize and amoral topic they usually have a stake in the outcome and they're lobbying for their own interests.

Curse you AquaScum!

  SpottyGekko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2956

5/01/13 10:57:27 AM#111

The thing I hate most about "F2P with Cash Shop" models is that the "good" ones will carefully analyse their player metrics and design the gameplay in such a way that it's just irritating enough to push a significant % of players to spend.

 

That means that the game design starts being dictated by which "threshold values" are needed to make 50% of players buy item or service X in the Cash Shop. Everything you do ingame becomes a target of monetization.

 

Most people can resist spending too much on Cash Shop items, but that denial is always a conscious decision. And the decision to forego those "quality of life" expenditures will always leave a slightly bitter taste.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/01/13 11:01:06 AM#112
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

The thing I hate most about "F2P with Cash Shop" models is that the "good" ones will carefully analyse their player metrics and design the gameplay in such a way that it's just irritating enough to push a significant % of players to spend.

 

That means that the game design starts being dictated by which "threshold values" are needed to make 50% of players buy item or service X in the Cash Shop. Everything you do ingame becomes a target of monetization.

 

Most people can resist spending too much on Cash Shop items, but that denial is always a conscious decision. And the decision to forego those "quality of life" expenditures will always leave a slightly bitter taste.

 Unfortunately when it comes to human nature it's called impulse spending. When proper marketing does this they're able to take advantage of ones impulse buying habits. You have to beat the urge to buy or feed into the marketing ploys that they layout within the game. Which is why I claim it as a "challenge" for me. How far can I get? How strong can I become? This is what's missing for me in subscription games. Because free-to-play inherantly adds difficulty to their games. While subscription models are taking the difficulty out.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2325

5/01/13 11:04:47 AM#113
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Disdena

I used to love playing Mega Man. Then I found out you could buy a thing called Game Genie to get infinite lives. Now I hate Mega Man; I don't want to pay money for a Game Genie, so my version of the game is "crippled" because I only have 3 lives.

 

Judge the game sans cash shop on its own merits. Don't worry about what other people are doing, and don't worry about how much easier the game would be if you paid for help. The idea that the normal mode of a game can be crippled by the mere existence of an optional alternate way of playing is ludicrous.

Is it? (It is a bit different when talking about MMOs where you/your character is compared to others.)

Just wait til the alternate way becomes the norm. How many people that play EVE have two or more accounts so they can run more profitable operations solo? Well, most people I know do. So if I don't then I am crippled and unable to make enough credits so effortlessly to buy PLEX. My income gets crippled for not paying more.

No F2P but still an advantage can be bought.

 You will never be able to win with this happening (and it happens in every game Subrscription and Free-to-Play) however, this does not stop people from still enjoying the game. So in your mind you're crippled however in someone elses they're playing the game to their advantage and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

You are completely avoiding that if it is the norm, ie. nearly everyone but not you has the advantage, then you are at a disadvantage most of the time.

I'm not avoiding it. I'm stating that you'll never be better than the guy who has 5-10 accounts on a subscription game or pays 500-1000 on a free-to-play game. You have to race with your wallet and I'm sorry if you don't understand this. However, I understand fully that I'm not going to race with my wallet. In fact, if you read this magical thing in my signature. I state exactly what you're accusing me of not knowing, "Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you."

 

No, really? Of course there can aways be someone that is better. I'm not talking about that,[mod edit]

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13580

 
OP  5/01/13 11:05:43 AM#114
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

"F2P" will never become a derogatory term, because peeps love "free".

Here is a tip from a skeptic, me, "Nothing is free".

Take for example this: I am heading back to college, and recently went through an oreintation. During a campus tour we were told a list of "free" services we get. Including, "Free tickest to sporting events.", "Free access to the fitness center". Now I am an avid capitalist and have an accountant for a wife, so I inspect every bill I get and keep recipts for everything. Sooooo, I know that those tickes and access arent "Free" at all. In fact there is even an "athletic fee" right on the bill. But here we are on a tour hearing about all the freebies. HA.

The reality is it cost money to do stuff, like develope, publish, and operate a game. As consumers it is our responsibility to understand ALL the costs and be aware. Yes I know some marketing is designed to "sucker" many, with a focus on youth. But, I also am aware that "youths" are not adults and even the law doesnt grant them full sets of rights. So I put that on their parents.

Well yes, it's obvious that a game isn't going to be completely free.  What I don't like about "free to play" is that it doesn't tell you the costs up front.

There have been many situations where positive-sounding things ended up being used and quoted derisively.  I could give many examples from recent politics, but don't want to derail the thread that way, so I'll just give an older one that should be widely recognizable but isn't so politically charged anymore:

Neville Chamberlain:  "Peace in our time."

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/01/13 11:07:31 AM#115
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by Disdena

I used to love playing Mega Man. Then I found out you could buy a thing called Game Genie to get infinite lives. Now I hate Mega Man; I don't want to pay money for a Game Genie, so my version of the game is "crippled" because I only have 3 lives.

 

Judge the game sans cash shop on its own merits. Don't worry about what other people are doing, and don't worry about how much easier the game would be if you paid for help. The idea that the normal mode of a game can be crippled by the mere existence of an optional alternate way of playing is ludicrous.

Is it? (It is a bit different when talking about MMOs where you/your character is compared to others.)

Just wait til the alternate way becomes the norm. How many people that play EVE have two or more accounts so they can run more profitable operations solo? Well, most people I know do. So if I don't then I am crippled and unable to make enough credits so effortlessly to buy PLEX. My income gets crippled for not paying more.

No F2P but still an advantage can be bought.

 You will never be able to win with this happening (and it happens in every game Subrscription and Free-to-Play) however, this does not stop people from still enjoying the game. So in your mind you're crippled however in someone elses they're playing the game to their advantage and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

You are completely avoiding that if it is the norm, ie. nearly everyone but not you has the advantage, then you are at a disadvantage most of the time.

I'm not avoiding it. I'm stating that you'll never be better than the guy who has 5-10 accounts on a subscription game or pays 500-1000 on a free-to-play game. You have to race with your wallet and I'm sorry if you don't understand this. However, I understand fully that I'm not going to race with my wallet. In fact, if you read this magical thing in my signature. I state exactly what you're accusing me of not knowing, "Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you."

 

No shit. Of course there can aways be someone that is better. I'm not talking about that, genius.

 What? You said, "Just wait til the alternate way becomes the norm. How many people that play EVE have two or more accounts so they can run more profitable operations solo? Well, most people I know do. So if I don't then I am crippled and unable to make enough credits so effortlessly to buy PLEX. My income gets crippled for not paying more."

That's exactly what you're talking about. YOU WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN THE BIGGER WALLET!  Take the challenge of not having the money to throw at your computer screen. Because regardless of fee-to-play or subscription you'll always be worse.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13580

 
OP  5/01/13 11:08:43 AM#116
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Disdena

I used to love playing Mega Man. Then I found out you could buy a thing called Game Genie to get infinite lives. Now I hate Mega Man; I don't want to pay money for a Game Genie, so my version of the game is "crippled" because I only have 3 lives.

 

Judge the game sans cash shop on its own merits. Don't worry about what other people are doing, and don't worry about how much easier the game would be if you paid for help. The idea that the normal mode of a game can be crippled by the mere existence of an optional alternate way of playing is ludicrous.

For a single-player game in which you don't interact with anyone else, you can do that.  If someone else can come by and easily kill you because he's bought a bunch of item mall stuff, then it's kind of hard to ignore that.  Ditto if you get kicked from groups or guilds because you aren't loaded up with item mall stuff.

Now, you can say, not all "free to play" games will be like that.  But some are, and that's part of the problem:  it's not trivial to tell which ones are.  Even if you can see that a sword in the item mall offers 100 attack power, you don't know if that far better than anything that you can get apart from the item mall, or if you'll commonly get stuff much better in the normal course of playing the game.  With a subscription game, you don't have to worry about that.

It's not trivial to tell what any game does with its mechanics.  Do you know all the rules in a sub-locked pvp game before you play?  Do you have any confidence they'll never change?  Do you know how pve content is going to work?  Can rest on the promise those mechanics will never change?

I'm not sure what you think to accomplish by creating a fake dilemma (ie: there is no "problem") where we need to think of the victims who can't sort it out.  Oddly enough, despite your deep and continued confusion over what free to play means and the potential for abuse, many millions of people sort this out and enjoy them.

I'm curious if this has anything to do with your own game development.  When people moralize and amoral topic they usually have a stake in the outcome and they're lobbying for their own interests.

Often I can look up a lot of a game's formulas on a wiki before downloading or paying anything for it, even if it doesn't have a free trial.  Furthermore, while things are subject to change for play balance reasons, game designers tend not to face incredible financial pressure to change game mechanics in ways that they know will annoy nearly all of their players.  An item mall model, on the other hand, means that the company will eternally be under pressure to charge you for more stuff.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/01/13 11:09:04 AM#117
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

"F2P" will never become a derogatory term, because peeps love "free".

Here is a tip from a skeptic, me, "Nothing is free".

Take for example this: I am heading back to college, and recently went through an oreintation. During a campus tour we were told a list of "free" services we get. Including, "Free tickest to sporting events.", "Free access to the fitness center". Now I am an avid capitalist and have an accountant for a wife, so I inspect every bill I get and keep recipts for everything. Sooooo, I know that those tickes and access arent "Free" at all. In fact there is even an "athletic fee" right on the bill. But here we are on a tour hearing about all the freebies. HA.

The reality is it cost money to do stuff, like develope, publish, and operate a game. As consumers it is our responsibility to understand ALL the costs and be aware. Yes I know some marketing is designed to "sucker" many, with a focus on youth. But, I also am aware that "youths" are not adults and even the law doesnt grant them full sets of rights. So I put that on their parents.

Well yes, it's obvious that a game isn't going to be completely free.  What I don't like about "free to play" is that it doesn't tell you the costs up front.

There have been many situations where positive-sounding things ended up being used and quoted derisively.  I could give many examples from recent politics, but don't want to derail the thread that way, so I'll just give an older one that should be widely recognizable but isn't so politically charged anymore:

Neville Chamberlain:  "Peace in our time."

 How does free-to-play not tell you up front? When I play free-to-play I automatically know that there's a challenge that is going to be ahead of me cash shop or not. This is why I play those games because subscription games that have been recently produced are crap. They have no challenge and they're just plain not fun for me.

 I think I understand what your saying under all of this. I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you think, "if I have to pay to make the game "easy" for me than it's not fun."


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/01/13 11:14:37 AM#118
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Disdena

I used to love playing Mega Man. Then I found out you could buy a thing called Game Genie to get infinite lives. Now I hate Mega Man; I don't want to pay money for a Game Genie, so my version of the game is "crippled" because I only have 3 lives.

 

Judge the game sans cash shop on its own merits. Don't worry about what other people are doing, and don't worry about how much easier the game would be if you paid for help. The idea that the normal mode of a game can be crippled by the mere existence of an optional alternate way of playing is ludicrous.

For a single-player game in which you don't interact with anyone else, you can do that.  If someone else can come by and easily kill you because he's bought a bunch of item mall stuff, then it's kind of hard to ignore that.  Ditto if you get kicked from groups or guilds because you aren't loaded up with item mall stuff.

Now, you can say, not all "free to play" games will be like that.  But some are, and that's part of the problem:  it's not trivial to tell which ones are.  Even if you can see that a sword in the item mall offers 100 attack power, you don't know if that far better than anything that you can get apart from the item mall, or if you'll commonly get stuff much better in the normal course of playing the game.  With a subscription game, you don't have to worry about that.

It's not trivial to tell what any game does with its mechanics.  Do you know all the rules in a sub-locked pvp game before you play?  Do you have any confidence they'll never change?  Do you know how pve content is going to work?  Can rest on the promise those mechanics will never change?

I'm not sure what you think to accomplish by creating a fake dilemma (ie: there is no "problem") where we need to think of the victims who can't sort it out.  Oddly enough, despite your deep and continued confusion over what free to play means and the potential for abuse, many millions of people sort this out and enjoy them.

I'm curious if this has anything to do with your own game development.  When people moralize and amoral topic they usually have a stake in the outcome and they're lobbying for their own interests.

Often I can look up a lot of a game's formulas on a wiki before downloading or paying anything for it, even if it doesn't have a free trial.  Furthermore, while things are subject to change for play balance reasons, game designers tend not to face incredible financial pressure to change game mechanics in ways that they know will annoy nearly all of their players.  An item mall model, on the other hand, means that the company will eternally be under pressure to charge you for more stuff.

 To me they are almost the same issue.  I may not know how grindy or how pvp or pve or crafting exactly is in a p2p game, but I can look it up.

I may not know exactly what items the f2p has in the store or when/if it becomes necessary to purchase them to progress, but I can look it up.

Either way I can get the  information before hand, and both change by adding new content either in the shop or in the world (that can't be looked up at the time I am investigating the game because it doesn't exist yet)... so what exactly is the issue again?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  udon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1615

5/01/13 11:15:02 AM#119

F2P, B2P, Sub all seem pretty much the same to me these days.  The only real difference is the price of entry and if you end up paying up front for the game or later when you hit one of the brick walls deisgned into it.  They all have purchases that are optional and purchases that really are not if you are going to seriously play the game.

Rather than trying to pigon hole every game into evil and good based on it's revenue model I instead try and judge them each on their own merits.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/01/13 11:15:54 AM#120
Originally posted by Quizzical
 

Well yes, it's obvious that a game isn't going to be completely free.  What I don't like about "free to play" is that it doesn't tell you the costs up front.

Because there is no cost to play part of the game.

And if you want to know, just log in, and spend 5 min in the cash shop. That will tell you. It is not like they hide the cash shop or anything.

 

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