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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "Free to play" really just means "we're not going to tell you how much we intend to make you pay or how you'll be crippled if you don't."

18 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
342 posts found
  Nikecow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/11
Posts: 34

You're either in my corner, or you're with the trolls.

4/30/13 9:02:14 PM#41
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WW4BW

 Europeans are far more comfortable with the idea that you pay once (tax) and then you dont have to think with your wallet every time you feel a bit under the weather. So we know how much we spent. And we know how much we can spend on fun and food.. Getting sick might keep us from working. But it wont saddle us with crippling medical expenses on top ot that.

And how did that work out for them? Greece, Spain, Cyrus ...

Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, Denmark...

 

I don't think you have an argument here. It works better for some worse for others ue to factors that have nothing to di with the topic at hand.

Isn't the debt crisis dragging everyone in the Eurozone down?

Yes and guess who started it ?

They see me lurkin' they hatin...

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4127

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 9:06:02 PM#42
Originally posted by Nikecow
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WW4BW

 Europeans are far more comfortable with the idea that you pay once (tax) and then you dont have to think with your wallet every time you feel a bit under the weather. So we know how much we spent. And we know how much we can spend on fun and food.. Getting sick might keep us from working. But it wont saddle us with crippling medical expenses on top ot that.

And how did that work out for them? Greece, Spain, Cyrus ...

Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, Denmark...

 

I don't think you have an argument here. It works better for some worse for others ue to factors that have nothing to di with the topic at hand.

Isn't the debt crisis dragging everyone in the Eurozone down?

Yes and guess who started it ?

we're really going this route ?

 

alright. let's see who started it.

 

Germany. very industrialized, very productive, very high wages. Next door...italy. Not as industrialized, therefore not as productive, therefore not as high wages.

 

Entitlement attitude kicks in. "we want the same wages". So wages go up. Productivity does not but wages do.

 

next thing you know...DEBT.

 

gee I wonder why that happened. Perhaps spending more without increasing productivity is not a good thing ? huh.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/30/13 9:06:37 PM#43

 

Actually in the states it is against the law for a hospital to refuse treatment whether the person can pay or not.

A kind of back door public health care.

Most of the developed countries have some form of public health care.  32 of 33 nations I believe it was. 

The debt crisis has nothing to do with medical (quite a bit to do with having the government take care of you though from birth to death) and is quite varied depending on the country.

And completely off topic.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2004

4/30/13 9:06:56 PM#44
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

I don't think anyone really suffers the illusion that such games are completely free.  At this point, I also suspect the vast majority of people are leery of *bad* f2p models.  Everyone seems to approach upcoming f2p titles using particular frames of reference, such as "I hope this game's f2p model more closely resembles Game A rather than Game B."  Many people have experienced some pretty terrible f2p models where they feel obligated to dish out hundreds of dollars just to be competitive; likewise, many people have experienced solid f2p models where they feel like they get to do virtually everything they want in the game for free.  So at this point, I'd say players should look to see exactly *what kind* of f2p model the upcoming game they have their eyes on has.  

As for whether f2p will become a universally derogatory term, no.  No more than "buy one get one free" is, or "50% off" some marked up price.  Many people understand the gimmicks behind price mark ups in retail, but it's still insanely effective.  The term "free to play" itself, barring some sort of gaming catastrophe, will forever sound appealing to players.  

Of course there are players who are as adamantly against all things f2p as Chevy fans are against Ford, or liberals against conservatives, or sports fanatics against their rivals.  But that's just that: simple fandom.  

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

4/30/13 9:10:02 PM#45

Another whiney thread. 'I want to P2P but not F2P because I want to feel like I am paying for something'.  Another complaining thread by people who nothing know about business.

 

F2P games are out there BECUASE they are making money. P2P aren't because they need a specific amount of people to pay in order to make money. It is really that simple.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4127

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 9:14:04 PM#46
Originally posted by botrytis

 P2P aren't because they need a specific amount of people to pay in order to make money. It is really that simple.

elaborate on the quoted part. why do P2P need a specific ammount of people and F2P don't ?

 

is it because P2P having a fixed rate can only increase revenue by increasing playerbase whereas F2P can do so by increasing prices ?

 

 

 

 

  MadnessRealm

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2684

Ignorance is Bliss.

4/30/13 9:15:34 PM#47
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

I disagree that they're trying to hide the business model. I find that notion to be quite odd.

I get that having to download a game to find out the content of it's cash shop to be a bit of a turn off, but I wouldn't consider that "hiding" the cash shop. Just like you won't know if you like say, Skyrim, unless you spend $60 to play the game. They're not hiding the game. The only difference is that for F2Ps, you don't have to spend any money at all to play.

As for whether or not you can't tell if those cash shop items are powerful or not, you can actually can tell very easily if they are or not. Whenever I look at a F2P's Cash Shop, I always look to see if the Cash Shop offers bonuses that I consider "unfair". For example, selling more powerful gear in the Cash Shop or items that gives Stats bonuses. I also look if those same items can be acquired in-game somehow (like purchasing it from another player using in-game currency). If it's possible and I find the game interesting, I'll play, otherwise I'll leave. No money lost. If I have doubts, but the game still interests me, then I'll usually Google to see what other players think of the Cash Shop, that has generally proven to be useful to determine whether I want to play the game or skip it.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

4/30/13 9:18:20 PM#48
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

Subscription is, " We'll never tell you how bad the game's going to be or how poorly it's at launch or the fact that we'll add an additional cash shop on the side. Heck we might never add any content to the short lifespan our game has. But you'll have to blindly trust us with you 15 dollar donations up front."

 See what I did there? Stop it.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5157

Opportunist

4/30/13 9:19:18 PM#49
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

Nope, simply because almost everyone already knows what the term means and most are fine with it. Never confuse the general concensus here with reality of the rest of the world.

Almost everyone knows what "free to play" means?  I certainly don't.  Just about everything gets described as "free to play" these days, even with business models that five years ago would have been called a subscription game or buy to play or some such.

Can you give an example of one of the free to play games where you are confused whether it is subscription or free to play? In the meantime, here's the definition of almost. ;)

I have to agree with Loktofeit.  The division between sub-locked and F2P is and mostly always has been pretty clear.  The definition of "free to play" is simply no subscription required to play the game and access the servers.  The only muddying has been with games like WAR, WoW, and Rift with their limited low level access, but even then people call that a free trial and don't consider those games as "free to play".

I like the terms sub-locked and sub-free, meaning either you need a sub or not, because both B2P and F2P have loaded preconceptions.  I spend money on my games and event sub to them sometimes (I was subbed to Tera since F2P) so it doesn't matter to me if a game is B2P or F2P.  I tend to spend some money on them either way just like I do in sub-locked games.

Your complaint seems to center around monetization specifics, not whether there is a subscription or not.  Different publishers monetize and sell their games in different ways.  SoE, Turbine, EnMasse, ArenaNet, PerfectWorld, Nexon, and Funcom all do things differently.  Tera offers the entire game (classes, races, content world) free and sells slots, mounts, cosmetics, and buffs.  PerfectWorld sells gear and power directly in their store.

To answer your OP:  I think how we think of these terms is going to change as all the models themselves evolve and adapt.  In the same way that "pay to play" isn't the same as it was 10+ years ago, both that and f2p will mean something different in the future.

  User Deleted
4/30/13 9:19:42 PM#50
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

Free 2 Play takes away a lot of the equality in gaming. It lets more people in, but then seperates them based on wealth or willingness to spend.  They have started to learn that they cant take anything away from the base game, otherwise the free players will leave, resulting in an empty game.  But you will start to see more and more flashy items that distinguish the haves and have nots.

I mean, it guarantees population. But it isnt always the best idea if you want a balanced product without tiers of consumers based on wealth. So I think there will always be a market for both types. People who want in game achievements to determine your character, and people who either want a free game, or want to play with free players and show off their wealth.

  User Deleted
4/30/13 9:22:45 PM#51
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

Nope, simply because almost everyone already knows what the term means and most are fine with it. Never confuse the general concensus here with reality of the rest of the world.

Almost everyone knows what "free to play" means?  I certainly don't.  Just about everything gets described as "free to play" these days, even with business models that five years ago would have been called a subscription game or buy to play or some such.

Can you give an example of one of the free to play games where you are confused whether it is subscription or free to play? In the meantime, here's the definition of almost. ;)

SWTOR and EQ2  :P

  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1616

4/30/13 9:23:05 PM#52
Most F2P setups are pretty up front about what kind of experience you'll get "for free" or whatever.  I look at F2P as more of a "we're not even going to try and retain you as a customer for more than a few months" kind of game.  Which sucks for the players who actually like to invest in an mmo.

You make me like charity

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

4/30/13 9:24:52 PM#53
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by botrytis

 P2P aren't because they need a specific amount of people to pay in order to make money. It is really that simple.

elaborate on the quoted part. why do P2P need a specific ammount of people and F2P don't ?

 

is it because P2P having a fixed rate can only increase revenue by increasing playerbase whereas F2P can do so by increasing prices ?

 

 

 

 

Pretty easy - many F2P games more people spend money in the CS (even in a very little) while people will try a P2P and leave if is not exactly what they wanted, recently. Notice all the P2P games going F2P and wonder why? SWTOR, TSW and TERA are examples. What game has come out  RECENTLY that has STAYED P2P?

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  chaintm

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 973

"Shutting down threads sense 2004"

4/30/13 9:27:24 PM#54
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Most games are pretty up front. You can check out the cashshop the moment you first log into the game.

Which is to say, they won't tell you until after you download the game and start playing.  And even then, it takes a while to understand just how strong the things in the item mall are or aren't.  And even if you know what's in the item mall today, what's there in a month won't necessarily be all that similar--especially if they're relying heavily on random boxes with constantly changing contents.

Yeah thats my feelings on it as well, nothing up front but take a few hours to download try it out ! "Ok , we got them in game tease them with some good stuff till about level 10, then throw that you should try the store " basicly the grind takes hold. Meh this model is getting old quick.

"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  Fangrim

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/12
Posts: 469

4/30/13 9:30:08 PM#55
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical
I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it.  When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free.  Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?

Nope, simply because almost everyone already knows what the term means and most are fine with it. Never confuse the general concensus here with reality of the rest of the world.

Almost everyone knows what "free to play" means?  I certainly don't.  Just about everything gets described as "free to play" these days, even with business models that five years ago would have been called a subscription game or buy to play or some such.

Can you give an example of one of the free to play games where you are confused whether it is subscription or free to play? In the meantime, here's the definition of almost. ;)

SWTOR and EQ2  :P

I play eq2 for free.No new xpacs you need to pay for will be released anymore.We just today got a whole new zone with dungeons and raid zone in it.All 100% free full game,you just need to know how to make plat and buy krono.I will play forever for free.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4127

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 9:32:50 PM#56
Originally posted by botrytis

 

many F2P games more people spend money in the CS (even in a very little) while people will try a P2P and leave if is not exactly what they wanted, recently..

I'm trying to follow but I don't understand what you mean.

 

"while people will try a P2P and leave if is not exactly what they wanted, recently.."

 

I get what you're saying. I don't know if it's true or not but I understand.

 

"many F2P games more people spend money in the CS (even in a very little)"

 

here I don't understand. You're saying a F2P game is helped by the fact that there are many F2P games for people to spend a little bit in the cash shop ? Or are you saying that some F2P will survive because in some F2P players will pay a little. I don't...get how "many F2P" will help any individual f2p out of those many.

 

or perhaps did you mean "in many F2P games people spend very little in the CS".

 

I'm not clear as to which noun the "many" is attached to, basically. Are you claiming F2P is sustained by many little transactions while P2P is not sustained by few big transactions ? That's the best I can do with what I quoted. And it might be true, I imagine it's a case-by-case scenario dependent on dev expenses. Which then tie into quality. which then point at F2P being 'cheaply made'. Which leads own the "failed P2P go F2P, F2p is where MMOs die" and all that.

 

I guess i haven't learned anything new here afterall...YET.

 

 

  Velocinox

Elite Member

Joined: 3/15/06
Posts: 589

4/30/13 9:33:00 PM#57
Then don't play

'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than the one you've become familiar with.


How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1616

4/30/13 9:36:25 PM#58

On a slightly-related note, here's my method of deciding if a F2P game is worth it (assuming it actually looks interesting and gamplay is fun).

If I can get to nearly a full-game experience by spending less than $15 a month in the cash shop, then I won't complain.  SWtOR is a good example of how a F2P game can be setup pretty well, despite the criticism.  For roughly $40,  you can get account unlocks which remove all restrictions other than the field rez limit.  You still advance slower, and you still have to buy weekly passes for warzones or flashpoints or ops (at the end game mainly), but the cost of the occassional xp booster (not required) and passes for whatever end-game stuff you do, namely operations, work out to about half the cost of a subscription.

The only exception is if you are a real hardcore player, and do several ops a week, every week, and are constantly farming hardmodes and stuff.  At that point, a subscription is probably worth it.

You make me like charity

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/30/13 9:42:29 PM#59

swtor's f2p bugged me.  IT's the only game I played where I was constantly reminded about buying something.  The UI locks (told that is gone now though) and evey time I turned in a quest was the reward window telling you what you could get.

It just got annoying.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1616

4/30/13 9:45:13 PM#60
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

swtor's f2p bugged me.  IT's the only game I played where I was constantly reminded about buying something.  The UI locks (told that is gone now though) and evey time I turned in a quest was the reward window telling you what you could get.

It just got annoying.

Notifications go away as you unlock stuff.  Hell, you can even buy unlocks with in-game credits from the GTN if you really want to get cheap about it.

You make me like charity

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