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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » F2P is making more than TWICE as much money as P2P in the US

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196 posts found
  thinktank001

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1942

5/02/13 12:48:21 PM#121
Originally posted by botrytis

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

 

Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20237

 
OP  5/02/13 12:52:43 PM#122
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by botrytis

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

 

Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

"terrible" is in the eye of the beholder.

I played STO, DDO, DCUO, PS2 .. all are pretty fun game to me. And who cares about getting the "full" experience when the "partial" one is fun enough.

I play game for fun, not for envy about whether the next guy has a bigger star ship.

And yes, it is less rewarding than shelving out $100 but the question is whether it is rewarding enough.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

5/02/13 1:22:42 PM#123
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by KroxMalon
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

"Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

Only if you spend the money. I personally dont.

Most don't. It is well known that F2P games are paid for by a few whales.

Can you cite a relevant study that proves this?  I've been looking around the internet since you've been saying this, and all I can find or 4 and 5 year old studies which are really outdated.

Is there something from 2012 or 2013 that breaks down 2012 F2P and shows whales as the primary revenue source?  Is this true only for Eastern publishers or also Western publishers as well?

The market has changed dramatically in the last year and it would be interesting to see how things break down now?

Curse you AquaScum!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

5/02/13 1:28:32 PM#124
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by botrytis

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

Ah yeah, the old vague hypothetical argument.  "Unidentified thing x is much worse than unidentified thing y" in my personal made up world of make believe.

If you're comparing Crystal Saga to WoW then you might have a point.  If you're comparing WoW, Rift, and EVE to say Tera, GW2, STO, TSW, or EQ2, then I'm going to have to disagree.

By the way, how rewarding is it for someone who doesn't pay up in a P2P game?  You know if they go the "free route".  Oh, that's right they can't even play so the non-paying route in a sub-locked game isn't very rewarding at all is it?

Curse you AquaScum!

  nbtscan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 507

5/02/13 2:02:48 PM#125
It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.
  Battlerock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 996

5/02/13 2:08:08 PM#126
The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

5/02/13 2:21:32 PM#127
Originally posted by KingofHartz
The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013

What exactly do you mean by this?

Curse you AquaScum!

  Battlerock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 996

5/02/13 2:43:09 PM#128
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by KingofHartz
The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

Lets say f2p model was non existent. Revenues would be much higher for p2p, much higher than p2p and f2p combined today and we would also have companies with a strong back that could support thier games. Im no swtor fan, but with f2p all the moeny they put intodeveloping it, the gaming world wont see that anytime soon with f2p suppressing the iindustry. That means we get thousands of low quality titles. But as the old school fades out and the new culture comes they wont know the difference. In essence the best days of pc gaming are behind us until the cycle comes back around. When it does it still wont be the same.
  Battlerock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 996

5/02/13 2:47:20 PM#129
Originally posted by KingofHartz
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by KingofHartz
The numbers are only a testament of pc gaming suppression in 2013

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

Lets say f2p model was non existent. Revenues would be much higher for p2p, much higher than p2p and f2p combined today and we would also have companies with a strong back that could support thier games. Im no swtor fan, but with f2p all the moeny they put intodeveloping it, the gaming world wont see that anytime soon with f2p suppressing the iindustry. That means we get thousands of low quality titles. But as the old school fades out and the new culture comes they wont know the difference. In essence the best days of pc gaming are behind us until the cycle comes back around. When it does it still wont be the same.

 

I should say too that Daoc is onto something, I have critisized kickstarter in the past but as far as quality in niche gaming they are creating an exception to the suppression f2p has created.
  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

5/02/13 2:53:28 PM#130
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger
 

The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

Yeah. I am one of them. I don't see a reason to sub anymore. This explosion of the F2P market is good news. That means MORE F2P MMOs will be produced and i have more choices.

Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

I have no problems with cash shop. It is pretty easy to ignore, and i am grateful the cash shops let the whales subsidizing my games.

The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

"afford" .. i use to pay a sub to WOW .. don't see any reason to do so anymore. It is not about affordablility. It is about competition. If i can have fun for free, is there a reason not to?

And yes, i not only expect these games to be created 3-5 years and haned to me for free ... i am actually playing them. So far the expectation is met.

 

 

Yes, and you can do that because other people are spending money to keep the game profitable.  I personally don't mind this at all.  That's the model that emerged from so many people not wanting or being able to pay a monthly sub fee.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

5/02/13 2:53:52 PM#131
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor
[mod edit]

But can you guess how much more money F2P is making compared to P2P without seeing the post?

Where's the comparison to how much the P2P income was before all of the F2P conversions.  Something tells me that the industry was making much more money overall with subscriptions, but are opting for this new model because it allows for much less effort on their parts.  Games obviously work much harder putting out content to keep players subscribed than I have seen with current efforts on F2P games.

 

The only quasi-exception I have seen so far is with LOTRO, yet it is a Freemium game hybrid that is still pushing players to subscribe over piecemeal purchases.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2555

5/02/13 2:55:06 PM#132
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by botrytis

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

 

Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

I don't believe so. I mean when one states such over-reaching statements there are exceptions. Just because you don't like the game play, doesn't mean it is bad.

 

hmm - 'less rewarding experience' - that is a nice euphamism. What do you mean by that? They have to grind more, less? Putting out statements that cannot be discussed doesn't help the discussion. Yes, there are games where you have to buy things in the CS shops to play, they are called P2W games not F2P - Allods Online is one of them. Others, no you don't.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

5/02/13 2:56:32 PM#133
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger
 

The fact is, a year ago these forums and other forums all over the internet were absolutely FULL of people saying "I'm not paying a subscription fee for games" and making all kinds of other anti-subscription rants.

Yeah. I am one of them. I don't see a reason to sub anymore. This explosion of the F2P market is good news. That means MORE F2P MMOs will be produced and i have more choices.

Those of us with half a brain already knew that the future of online entertainment was going to be in micro transactions, and we knew they would make more money too if they found smart ways to monetize.  It's inevitable, and the cat is out of the bag now.  Those of you who don't like cash shops better start getting over it, especially if you plan to play mainstream games.

I have no problems with cash shop. It is pretty easy to ignore, and i am grateful the cash shops let the whales subsidizing my games.

The point is, people didn't want the sub fee because it was "too expensive", so now they have cash shops so players willing to spend cash can support the cheapskates who couldn't afford a sub fee.  Do you expect these games to be created over 3-5 years and then handed to you for free?

"afford" .. i use to pay a sub to WOW .. don't see any reason to do so anymore. It is not about affordablility. It is about competition. If i can have fun for free, is there a reason not to?

And yes, i not only expect these games to be created 3-5 years and haned to me for free ... i am actually playing them. So far the expectation is met.

 

 

Yes, and you can do that because other people are spending money to keep the game profitable.  I personally don't mind this at all.  That's the model that emerged from so many people not wanting or being able to pay a monthly sub fee.

How sustainable do you think it can remain when a good number of people freeload at the expense of others.  The resentment alone will eventually become explosive, but I have a feeling that more and more people will stop paying into the shops due to that very resentment and could very well dramatically shift the F2P paradigm into a bunch of game closures.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

5/02/13 2:58:07 PM#134
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by botrytis

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

 

Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

I don't believe so. I mean when one states such over-reaching statements there are exceptions. Just because you don't like the game play, doesn't mean it is bad.

 

hmm - 'less rewarding experience' - that is a nice euphamism. What do you mean by that? They have to grind more, less? Putting out statements that cannot be discussed doesn't help the discussion. Yes, there are games where you have to buy things in the CS shops to play, they are called P2W games not F2P - Allods Online is one of them. Others, no you don't.

We notice the huge difference in game quality, we don't care if you choose to ignore it.

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1706

5/02/13 2:58:28 PM#135
Originally posted by nbtscan
It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.

Said 'F2P" games still offer subscriptions, for which there are still quite a bit.

It would be interesting to see if the subscribers of SWTOR are bunched in with the froobs in their numbers.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

5/02/13 3:02:13 PM#136
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by nbtscan
It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.

Said 'F2P" games still offer subscriptions, for which there are still quite a bit.

It would be interesting to see if the subscribers of SWTOR are bunched in with the froobs in their numbers.

Most of the F2P converts are actually Freemium games which all still offer subscriptions and even rewards players more for doing so.  Even Planetside 2 offers a subscription and it is highly encouraged and offers a tremendous amount of benefits for doing so.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20237

 
OP  5/02/13 3:04:34 PM#137
Originally posted by Vorthanion
 

How sustainable do you think it can remain when a good number of people freeload at the expense of others.  The resentment alone will eventually become explosive, but I have a feeling that more and more people will stop paying into the shops due to that very resentment and could very well dramatically shift the F2P paradigm into a bunch of game closures.

Very sustainable. It has sustained the growth from p2p making more monety than f2p to f2p making now twice as much. And even if there will be dramatic game closures, which is just a guess with zero evidence on your part, we can have some free fun before that happens.

So all good.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20237

 
OP  5/02/13 3:05:55 PM#138
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by nbtscan
It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.

Said 'F2P" games still offer subscriptions, for which there are still quite a bit.

It would be interesting to see if the subscribers of SWTOR are bunched in with the froobs in their numbers.

Most of the F2P converts are actually Freemium games which all still offer subscriptions and even rewards players more for doing so.  Even Planetside 2 offers a subscription and it is highly encouraged and offers a tremendous amount of benefits for doing so.

Yes. And the message is not that there should not be a sub option. The message is that p2p-ONLY games are on the way out.

From a personal point of view, a game with a F2P option is good enough to play as a free game. I wouldn't care less if there is a cash shop, or a sub option. Those are irrelevant if you want to play for free.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2555

5/02/13 3:08:16 PM#139
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by botrytis

I think the P2P is in a freefall. The reason being that is F2P games can give you AS MUCH content as a P2P, why would you pay the fee? It is just ridiculous to think that way.

 

Gameplay quality is terrible in cash shop model games.   Players have to either pay for the full experience, or they have to accept the fact that their experience will be less rewarding if they choose to go the " free route ".  

I don't believe so. I mean when one states such over-reaching statements there are exceptions. Just because you don't like the game play, doesn't mean it is bad.

 

hmm - 'less rewarding experience' - that is a nice euphamism. What do you mean by that? They have to grind more, less? Putting out statements that cannot be discussed doesn't help the discussion. Yes, there are games where you have to buy things in the CS shops to play, they are called P2W games not F2P - Allods Online is one of them. Others, no you don't.

We notice the huge difference in game quality, we don't care if you choose to ignore it.

Which game's quality - SWTOR, WoW, which games are you refering to? Allods Online was a nice F2P game before they got greedy. The Game play was nice and the graphics were a little cartoony, like WoW, but it had a nice back story, decent skills, etc.

 

Again the euphamisms - I highlighted it for you - explain - using blanket statements does not make it a discussion.

 

The problem I think people have is when you pay for something, one expects it to be better than games where you do not pay. So, they don't objectively look at games and just base it on 'It is free, it has to be bad'.

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  Battlerock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 996

5/02/13 3:08:41 PM#140
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by nbtscan
It's hard to believe that between WoW, Rift, EVE and FFXI (can't think of any other subscription games at the moment that are live) that they're not making more than F2P games in the U.S.  I guess with game populations such as TERA, GW2 and SW:TOR it's not outside the realm of possibility though.

Said 'F2P" games still offer subscriptions, for which there are still quite a bit.

It would be interesting to see if the subscribers of SWTOR are bunched in with the froobs in their numbers.

Most of the F2P converts are actually Freemium games which all still offer subscriptions and even rewards players more for doing so.  Even Planetside 2 offers a subscription and it is highly encouraged and offers a tremendous amount of benefits for doing so.

Yes. And the message is not that there should not be a sub option. The message is that p2p-ONLY games are on the way out.

From a personal point of view, a game with a F2P option is good enough to play as a free game. I wouldn't care less if there is a cash shop, or a sub option. Those are irrelevant if you want to play for free.

 

But can you trully play it for free ? And now what we have is classism. Virtual classism.
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