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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » F2P is making more than TWICE as much money as P2P in the US

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196 posts found
  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4157

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 8:28:27 PM#61
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Robokapp

You're completely right, New F2P games are crappy quality:

Bless who?Click the video. You'll actually find out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_iBJcZtwI

Ein Online who?Click the video. You'll actually find out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2jZbNHa3jc

Archage there's currently no such MMO out there. Very successful F2P title already. If you don't know this I feel sorry for you once again. Just because it's not released in the U.S. does not mean it doesn't exist.


Neverwinter there's currently no such MMO out there. But it's close. Still...not here yet. You must be blind to not know that the game doesn't exist (once again) here's a link to the site: http://nw.perfectworld.com/ It exists get use to it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2zm0gABZUg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5dsZhLHPeQ

Guild Wars 2 Not F2P Not subscription.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgyS_-HiD54

Defiance Not good. Still better quality than many subscription games that have released.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiT826PSugE

 

 

There are very few subscription games that are successful!

World of Wacraft

Everquest

UO

DAOC

RIFT

 Very few in number, but only one of these is bigger than everything you listed in the F2P section combined.  If you want to play this game I'll bite. There are more success MMOs in the F2P market that beat out every one of these games combined. F2P is a genre that has been out for just as long as subscriptions.

 

 I don't know why you don't know of games like Blessed and Ein. I do my research on up coming major MMO's. You should do some research befoer you talk out of your ass and try to combat my points. My entire statement stands completely valid. Subscription based games are no better than the free-to-play titles that are being released.

 You only believe that because you've never heard of these titles. You then assume they're not high quality titles. Which is why I forgive you for being nieve and not actually knowing what's on the horizon for MMO games.

 I don't believe you even have the slightest idea on how much better quality F2P are producing these days and you can keep assuming they're bad. That's your choose to keep in the dark.

well aren't you amazing. You seem to have made a few personal attacks here and there though. If you had a point those wouldn't have been necesary.

 

when you say 'better' quality, can you list the features you're talking about ? I'm curious what's causing this high quality.

 

please use your research and pull me out of the darkness and into the light by illuminating these high quality features upon me, oh great one.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2246

4/30/13 8:28:57 PM#62
Originally posted by Waldoe
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by XAPKen

Times change, markets change, tech changes, games change, payment models adapt.

 

I think Scarlet Blade is a great example.  Have you ever seen anyone say it should be monetized as box plus subscription?  I doubt it.  Now ask yourself why is that.

 

Exactly. This F2P crap is actually made it so that more low quality, garbage MMOs can be released because it will be F2P and they will be able to dupe a few weak-minded people to fork out houndreds of dollars for playing a freaking video game.

You're completely right, New F2P games are crappy quality:

Bless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_iBJcZtwI

Ein Online

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2jZbNHa3jc

Archage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2zm0gABZUg

Neverwinter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5dsZhLHPeQ

Guild Wars 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgyS_-HiD54

Defiance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiT826PSugE

Age of Wushu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coaxkb4HoPk

 

Those titles are just so poor quality compared to these new subscription games:

RIFT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if30VE4ekpk

Darkfall: Unholy Wars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b75WH87BLSM

Wakfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJC8sTHESaI

 

 (If I'm forgetting other any other subscription based games forgive me; I can't remember them all off the top of my head.)

 So tell me what's really going on? You can pick and choose which games are "good" or "bad". However, as you can see from what I've posted up above there's so many new games that are great and are free-to-play compared to how many new games that are (still) subscription based.

 

There are very few subscription games that are successful!

World of Wacraft

Everquest

UO

DAOC

RIFT

 

There have been very few successful games (on the top of my mind) that have been able to pull off their ability to stay profitable with a subscription based model.

 

You choose what games are crap:

 

The ones released as "AAA" subscription games that fail (then in switch to F2P)?

The ones released as free-to-play games that are successful?

 

You don't even know the difference between f2p and b2p. Next post please. B2P is F2P with an initial price tag. Move along.

 

ArcheAge will be p2p. Final fantasy 11 was a mainstay in p2p titles for a while. Lotro was also quite successful when it was p2p. Archeage is F2P in other countries and I stated in my post to forgive me for forgetting FF11. If Lotro was "successful" as you say they were. They wouldn't have made the change to the F2P market. So there for it wasn't successful in their mindset.

 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/30/13 8:29:59 PM#63
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million.

If they are saying F2P games only made $195 million last year and not an INCREASE of 195 million then the numbers are wrong, way wrong.

Nexon, NDoors, NCsoft are all PUBLICALY traded companies that release their revenue for shareholders and Nexon alone made far more than that on their F2P games, if you throw in NDoors, those two companies made over 400 million in PROFITS last year off their F2P offerings...profits...just off of F2P games, not total overall.

Odds are this article is only talking in the west, once again showing that this genre suffers a case of "its a small world" thinking which is why its losing ground to South Korean companies that look at the big picture.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1780

May the game be ever in your favor.

4/30/13 8:40:50 PM#64
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Neat thing about Free to Play games numbers - since people aren't subscribed, as soon as they register for the game they are counted as F2P players forever.

 

Also, the numbers seem really far off from what I'd expect.  For example, if $86 million is the total revenue for subscriptions, that means at $15 monthly fees there are only 5 million subscribed players in the USA paying subs for MMOs.  Doesn't that seem extremely low?

 

I'm betting games that call themselves free to play but offer subscription levels, count subscribers as F2P players for the purpose of this obviously misleading and off the mark report.

 

edit: clarity

I think you vastly overestimate how many people in the USA even play MMOs. I live in Maine and I know very few people that play MMOs. When I was in middle school Runescape was sort of popular but after that most everyone moved on once they hit high school and formed other hobbies where MMOs didn't fit into their lives. I do know though that a lot of these people play console games (me and a couple friends are always going over our Elder Scroll adeventures haha).

 

I think though a lot of people on here forget that not as many people play MMOs as they seem to think.

Smile

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3202

Poacher killer.

4/30/13 8:44:43 PM#65
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

You don't even know the difference between f2p and b2p. Next post please. B2P is F2P with an initial price tag. Move along.

 

ArcheAge will be p2p. Final fantasy 11 was a mainstay in p2p titles for a while. Lotro was also quite successful when it was p2p. Archeage is F2P in other countries and I stated in my post to forgive me for forgetting FF11. If Lotro was "successful" as you say they were. They wouldn't have made the change to the F2P market. So there for it wasn't successful in their mindset.

 

LOTRO did the switcheroo because of DDO's huge initial success. This was briefly before Turbine assured it's customers that LOTRO would remain P2P. Also just before WB came along. That's how it all went down, bud. I watched it happen.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

 
OP  4/30/13 8:48:19 PM#66
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Neat thing about Free to Play games numbers - since people aren't subscribed, as soon as they register for the game they are counted as F2P players forever.

 

Also, the numbers seem really far off from what I'd expect.  For example, if $86 million is the total revenue for subscriptions, that means at $15 monthly fees there are only 5 million subscribed players in the USA paying subs for MMOs.  Doesn't that seem extremely low?

 

I'm betting games that call themselves free to play but offer subscription levels, count subscribers as F2P players for the purpose of this obviously misleading and off the mark report.

 

edit: clarity

I think you vastly overestimate how many people in the USA even play MMOs. I live in Maine and I know very few people that play MMOs. When I was in middle school Runescape was sort of popular but after that most everyone moved on once they hit high school and formed other hobbies where MMOs didn't fit into their lives. I do know though that a lot of these people play console games (me and a couple friends are always going over our Elder Scroll adeventures haha).

 

I think though a lot of people on here forget that not as many people play MMOs as they seem to think.

There are 45M+ MMO players in the US.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

4/30/13 8:59:32 PM#67
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

ArcheAge will be p2p. Final fantasy 11 was a mainstay in p2p titles for a while. Lotro was also quite successful when it was p2p. Archeage is F2P in other countries and I stated in my post to forgive me for forgetting FF11. If Lotro was "successful" as you say they were. They wouldn't have made the change to the F2P market. So there for it wasn't successful in their mindset.

Actually, it was a planned strategy and very successful. Both Jeffs, Steefel and Anderson, were talking about Free to play and microtransactions long before LOTRO launched. Do you really think Turbine, with people like the aforementioned two and Butler on their team was so shortsighted as to not plan for any way for their core audience to spend money on the game beyond an initial two year sub investment (lifetime deals)? They effectively frontloaded two years of revenue and switched to what was quickly becoming the preferred model - free to play - at a time in the MMO lifecycle where most devs would be consolidating servers.

There's no data to support your assumption that LOTRO was doing poorly.

 

"You should do some research befoer you talk out of your ass...."

Funny you should say that, because... yeah.

  taus01

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

4/30/13 9:14:11 PM#68

 

It's common knowledge that the eastern market has successfully made the transition to F2P more than 5 years ago and has since then grown to a point where they now not only buy up failing western products but also produce and release AAA quality mmorpgs that not only rival but outshine any western mmorpgs on the market.

The western market is still trying to re-create the magic WoW formula failing miserably year after year and losing money in the process Western gaming companies will fail within the next 2-3 years if they do not adapt to the changed market.

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4157

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/30/13 9:16:26 PM#69
Originally posted by taus01

 

It's common knowledge that the eastern market has successfully made the transition to F2P more than 5 years ago and has since then grown to a point where they now not only buy up failing western products but also produce and release AAA quality mmorpgs that not only rival but outshine any western mmorpgs on the market.

The western market is still trying to re-create the magic WoW formula failing miserably year after year and losing money in the process Western gaming companies will fail within the next 2-3 years if they do not adapt to the changed market.

so the western market needs more internet cafe's. gotcha.

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2260

World > Quest Progression

4/30/13 9:36:47 PM#70
Yeah but even the "failed WoW clones" have more depth than a lot of eastern MMOs. Not that is makes it better but there is a difference of what is popular between east and west. If we played MMOs at bangs with other gamers we would also prefer shallower, grind friendly games.

They are easier to create and maintain hence why it works in thier F2P market. Great for them but the west copying that means we will eventually see the same grindy, shallow titles.

In the west most of the F2P games have been transitions which is why in the short term F2P is synonymous with player declines.

It's all about context and bot as black and white as some seem to think. I agree that the next 2-3 years will be telling for the west's version of F2P but the results may not be easily predicted.
  Precusor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 4655

Aim Bot

5/01/13 3:16:49 AM#71
Originally posted by taus01

 

It's common knowledge that the eastern market has successfully made the transition to F2P more than 5 years ago and has since then grown to a point where they now not only buy up failing western products but also produce and release AAA quality mmorpgs that not only rival but outshine any western mmorpgs on the market.

The western market is still trying to re-create the magic WoW formula failing miserably year after year and losing money in the process Western gaming companies will fail within the next 2-3 years if they do not adapt to the changed market.

F2p AAA quality mmorpgs that outshine western mmorpgs?.. post some links please so i could try them out.

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1804

5/01/13 3:23:37 AM#72
There's a big difference in discussing stats that includes social games on facebook and mobile devices vs the games being discussed on this site
  Shaigh

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 149

5/01/13 3:25:01 AM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Neat thing about Free to Play games numbers - since people aren't subscribed, as soon as they register for the game they are counted as F2P players forever.

 

Also, the numbers seem really far off from what I'd expect.  For example, if $86 million is the total revenue for subscriptions, that means at $15 monthly fees there are only 5 million subscribed players in the USA paying subs for MMOs.  Doesn't that seem extremely low?

 

I'm betting games that call themselves free to play but offer subscription levels, count subscribers as F2P players for the purpose of this obviously misleading and off the mark report.

 

edit: clarity

I think you vastly overestimate how many people in the USA even play MMOs. I live in Maine and I know very few people that play MMOs. When I was in middle school Runescape was sort of popular but after that most everyone moved on once they hit high school and formed other hobbies where MMOs didn't fit into their lives. I do know though that a lot of these people play console games (me and a couple friends are always going over our Elder Scroll adeventures haha).

 

I think though a lot of people on here forget that not as many people play MMOs as they seem to think.

There are 45M+ MMO players in the US.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

That's because they count games like LoL, Diablo 3 and war of tanks as MMO's.

  Precusor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 4655

Aim Bot

5/01/13 3:27:22 AM#74
Its aslo amsuing to see how some posters are claiming b2p = f2p
  taus01

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

5/01/13 3:57:15 AM#75
Originally posted by Precusor
Originally posted by taus01

 

It's common knowledge that the eastern market has successfully made the transition to F2P more than 5 years ago and has since then grown to a point where they now not only buy up failing western products but also produce and release AAA quality mmorpgs that not only rival but outshine any western mmorpgs on the market.

The western market is still trying to re-create the magic WoW formula failing miserably year after year and losing money in the process Western gaming companies will fail within the next 2-3 years if they do not adapt to the changed market.

F2p AAA quality mmorpgs that outshine western mmorpgs?.. post some links please so i could try them out.

1. I did not say F2P i said "AAA quality mmorpgs" that includes F2P, B2P and P2P.

2. I said "produce and release". A lot of titles are still in production or beta. Although i don't know if you are Korean or Asian, you might be able to play some of them. But then if you are korean you would not ask these silly questions now, would you?

3. Here is an article and a video for you to get started, you can do the rest yourself, it takes about as much time to find that information as you took replying to my post: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/22/leaderboard-bless-vs-black-desert-vs-blade-and-soul-vs-archeag/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2DCNJx_0aQ

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2260

World > Quest Progression

5/01/13 4:26:47 AM#76
taus01

I know it's hard not to be biased but the difference from east to west in regards to MMOs transcends personal taste and is more one of social feasibility. One who seems so in touch with eastern MMOs should know the type of game favored, why it is and why it would be easy to transition to F2P.

As far as AAA MMOs coming from the east now? Where are they? None of them are here yet. Even if they were, an updated graphics engine doesn't constitute a good MMO. Of those games listed Black Desert and AA do seem like good games, BD more of an innovation than the rest. The others seem like the same ole personally.
  Pie_Rat

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/05
Posts: 249

5/01/13 4:36:12 AM#77
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://2p.com/5170acba61fc1cbdad62bf61_1/March-2013-US-Digital-Games-Market-Overview.htm

 

"Speaking of the MMO, the free-to-play MMO is definitely a trendy and have a growth of 3 million players in March, which also brings a slight improvement on monetization to $195 million. To the contrary, the pay-to-play MMO segment is going down in March and loses around 289,000 subscribers. Nonetheless, the overall revenues remained relatively stable at $86 million"

 

 

 

And what's the ratio of F2P to P2P games these days? Like 20 to 1? Of course they're going to have more players and more revenue...Derp. Games don't go F2P because it's the better model, they do it because the market is saturated and for a game to survive with the sub model in this context it needs to be incredibly good.

Currently playing: Darkfall UW, LoL.
Waiting for: Albion Online.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 4742

5/01/13 4:50:04 AM#78
Originally posted by taus01
Originally posted by Precusor
Originally posted by taus01

 

It's common knowledge that the eastern market has successfully made the transition to F2P more than 5 years ago and has since then grown to a point where they now not only buy up failing western products but also produce and release AAA quality mmorpgs that not only rival but outshine any western mmorpgs on the market.

The western market is still trying to re-create the magic WoW formula failing miserably year after year and losing money in the process Western gaming companies will fail within the next 2-3 years if they do not adapt to the changed market.

F2p AAA quality mmorpgs that outshine western mmorpgs?.. post some links please so i could try them out.

1. I did not say F2P i said "AAA quality mmorpgs" that includes F2P, B2P and P2P.

2. I said "produce and release". A lot of titles are still in production or beta. Although i don't know if you are Korean or Asian, you might be able to play some of them. But then if you are korean you would not ask these silly questions now, would you?

3. Here is an article and a video for you to get started, you can do the rest yourself, it takes about as much time to find that information as you took replying to my post: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/22/leaderboard-bless-vs-black-desert-vs-blade-and-soul-vs-archeag/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2DCNJx_0aQ

Must admit the graphical quality of Black Desert surprised me, it was very good, and the player avatars were also, very good, i think the only thing that really let things down was the combat, maybe they tried to copy GW2 a bit too much, but all this diving about and hitting things just looks daft to me, have neither the patience nor the interest in that kind of gameplay. which is also why i quickly lost any interest i had in GW2. But thats my preference, i think Black desert probably does qualify as a AAA grade MMO, it might even make it outside of the asian market.

  taus01

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

5/01/13 5:51:26 AM#79
Originally posted by Aelious
taus01

I know it's hard not to be biased but the difference from east to west in regards to MMOs transcends personal taste and is more one of social feasibility. One who seems so in touch with eastern MMOs should know the type of game favored, why it is and why it would be easy to transition to F2P.

As far as AAA MMOs coming from the east now? Where are they? None of them are here yet. Even if they were, an updated graphics engine doesn't constitute a good MMO. Of those games listed Black Desert and AA do seem like good games, BD more of an innovation than the rest. The others seem like the same ole personally.

I am not discussing the quality or how good these games are. Those vary on personal taste way too much to be a base for a mature discussion.

What i said was that the eastern market is very healthy and is expanding into western territory not only by buying up IP and development studios but also by producing astounding quality. They finance these AAA quality mmorpgs with their short lived mediocre F2P games (although some of them look quite impressive).

The western market has to learn that creating mmorpg games with AAA budgets but failing on release and then going F2P is not going to work forever. This can not go on for very much longer.

Personally i think that the market is already lost to eastern mmorpgs once these next generation games hit the western market. 2-3 years from now most mmorpg developers will be bankrupt or bought by eastern publishers unless they get their act together.

 

 

Originally posted by Phry
Must admit the graphical quality of Black Desert surprised me, it was very good, and the player avatars were also, very good, i think the only thing that really let things down was the combat, maybe they tried to copy GW2 a bit too much, but all this diving about and hitting things just looks daft to me, have neither the patience nor the interest in that kind of gameplay. which is also why i quickly lost any interest i had in GW2. But thats my preference, i think Black desert probably does qualify as a AAA grade MMO, it might even make it outside of the asian market. 
This is just one of the titles that come from the eastern market. Of cause, like here, not everyone will like every type of game and the way it was designed. The point however is that these guys have a healthy market and are now producing AAA quality mmorpgs.
What impressed me the most about Black Desert is that the cities and animations feel real. Noticed how there are no bars or names or icons anywhere on the characters or NPCs? The houses are full of people, NPC walk around the town etc.

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10003

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/01/13 5:55:59 AM#80


Originally posted by kadepsyson
Neat thing about Free to Play games numbers - since people aren't subscribed, as soon as they register for the game they are counted as F2P players forever.

 

Also, the numbers seem really far off from what I'd expect.  For example, if $86 million is the total revenue for subscriptions, that means at $15 monthly fees there are only 5 million subscribed players in the USA paying subs for MMOs.  Doesn't that seem extremely low?

 

I'm betting games that call themselves free to play but offer subscription levels, count subscribers as F2P players for the purpose of this obviously misleading and off the mark report.

 

edit: clarity




The numbers don't seem that low. WoW's total subscribers for the U.S., Europe and Australia were in the five or six million players range a year or so ago and they are by far the largest pay to play game that exists. Most of the other subscription games are sub one hundred thousand players. Five million in the U.S. alone seems entirely possible.

Some more notes are that in 2010, only 22% of WoW's players were based in the U.S. That would put the total number of U.S. WoW players today at about 2.2 million. Five million U.S. players seems entirely possible, or even low using those numbers.

That is a good question on how players are counted. You'd think people paying a monthly subscription would be "subscribers" and people just buying stuff from the shops would be "F2Pers" and the people paying nothing would be "set decorations*". Something like that anyway.

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