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News & Features Discussion  » [Interview] Camelot Unchained: Stealth Mechanic Revealed

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50 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

4/28/13 4:33:34 AM#41
Originally posted by Gyrus

I read this update with interest.

I can actually visualise what is meant here... and how it might work in game.

TBH it sounds pretty good.

In fact it has the potential to be great - but it also has the potential to be a game killer.

Because to make this work - and not simply be a case of "Veilwalkers simply by-passing everything for insta-win again" there needs to be a balanced ratio of Veilstalkers.

And if there are too many Veilstalkers... then it will rapidly become "not fun" to be a Veilwalker.

And as well as that the ratio of "veil players" to other players needs to be managed because the whole "veil game" has the potential to simply become the only game - leaving everyone else out of the loop.  Also "not fun".

So, with all that in mind i have to ask the question as to whether I believe Mark Jacobs is up to the challenge of making it work as intended?  And honestly, IMHO, no he isn't.

It is a good idea - hopefully he allows another company to use it at a later date.  It could actually work very well in a single player game - where character class ratios could be strictly controlled.

He is not alone in this, backers will have a say, especially since this is a "optional" mechanic. If we feel it won't work out, we'll tell him so and i fully expect he will listen and adapt the mechanic. Also the way i understood it Veilstalkers will have some terrain based abilities, for example protect a keep door from being pass throughable for Veilwalkers(maybe as part of the crafting/enchantment process?), doesn't matter if its 1 or 10 walkers trying to pass, protected is protected.

Contrary to what people think the man doesn't have a god complex, maybe the "failure" of Warhammer actually helps in this regard.


Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 31

5/01/13 10:16:50 AM#42
The only problem with this article is that te Veilwalker/stalker system isn't set in stone. Mark introduced it to us (the backers of CU) as a possible way to handle stealth. It's still not decided.

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 54

5/01/13 9:24:55 PM#43

never thought of Stealth as a good mechanic, a good game will not have stealth.. the problem with stealth in current games is the victim has no involvement in the process. You simply find your self down 1/2 health and under attack, and no amount of real-skill can really stop this. In a game like Team fortress, people say to defend against spies by spy-checking, but what they are really doing is spamming. the dreaded pyro spam. While TF2's mechanic for the spy is actually not that bad, it kind of falls apart with the instant death back stab. there is no real skill that can counter this other than maybe keeping your back to the wall at all times. ( hardly a skill , but you know what i mean )




but since i am not going to win this battle, here is how I think it should be handled. ( in an MMO ) Basically, I think stealth classes should actually have to act like a stealther would in real life, you should have to hide in the actual shadows, darkness, and behind objects. You should not be able to stealth in areas where in real life you could not do it, as in, you cant stealth in a open field.




so how would I implement it in a video game, since that what makes making stealth class hard to deal with in games.




1) I said i would only allow players to enter stealth when in a shadow, and I mean literally in a game rendered shadow, these could be little shadows from local trees, to big shadows created by large forests with trees overhanging, or large mountains, or buildings. You would have a small cool down time where you could leave the shadow and launch an attack on passing player. maybe 3-5 seconds. I would possibly allow players to enter even without a shadow or darkness, but it would be still limited by the 3-5 rule




2) Some areas are just plain dark, dungeons, nigh time, these would in effect make large ares and zones that are full stealth, to limit abuse here, there would be the traditional global timer of maybe 30 seconds of stealth before you must drop invisible and recharge.




so if you combine 1 & 2, you essentially get two limits. your stealth time is limited by the first of to conditions, 3-5 seconds of time out of shade, or 30 seconds total. don't worry about the exact numbers, these can be tuned later.




3) the best suggestion i think I got. people have always asked, how do I simulate the ambushing that the stealth classes really do in real life. My suggestion here is, long before the player uses stealth to close the gap on a enemy, the stealther should have to use and ability that simulates him being able to hide behind something, but yet see his enemy coming. i thought, how could you simulate a player hiding behind an object, waiting for the victim to pass undetected. Why not give the stealther an skill that allows limited ability to see though objects when the skill is active. maybe wire frame vision of other players within a certain radius when activated. ... this would simulated the steather hiding behind a tree, but just ever so slightly poking his head around to see where is victim is, the stealth can then maneuver around the tree as the player approaches and get in behind without the victim knowing....



4) NO instant kills, does this really need explaining, its no fun at all.



if you combine all 3/4 points in the way I am in-vision, what i hope for is this....


1) stealther see a victim long range, hopes that victim has not seen him ( maybe stealthers could have longer range vision )


2) stealther asses areas where he can hide, also considers shadows bonuses


3) moves into position, activates his "see though ability" ( also has a cool down so he can not use all the time


4) player gets close, stealther still with his see though ability makes final maneuvers to to get in behind, he has to be careful though, while see-though is nice, if he does not maneuver well, the other player night see you standing behind that small object. moving while keeping out of the line of site could be difficult behind a tree.


5) stealther activates stealth mode, stealth is essentially the skill to use to close the final few feet on the victim


6) launches back attack






why i think this is a better way to do this. The reason is simple...


a) it simulates real hiding and promotes spacial awareness. Your environment now has to be considered when launching an attack. its no longer just a button, or just a quick button mash you do to get behind someone. now its actually involves the terrain.




b) it gives the victim small feedback as to what areas could be dangerous. instead of just getting frustrated about be 1 shotted anywhere outside the safe area. now you know you are pretty safe in a field, but you start to feel nervous when walking in wooded areas. you experience the real feelings of fear when you walk in dangerous areas. In the end, you really experience the feeling of the victim, the victim is almost playing the class along with the stealther .


c) of course, all the good loot is going to be in areas where stealth happens more often. Did you expect anything but ! hahahahah.



comments welcome,   bring on the RAGE!


Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2336

5/02/13 2:44:34 AM#44

Well, now the game is going to develop I'll say how I think CSE will do this:

I think the closest thing currently in MMOs is the teleport ability in Champions Online (imbedded video)

In games in general the effects in FEAR 2 & 3 maybe?


For Veil Walkers: When they go into the veil there has been a brief mention of some kind of "portal" in The Depths.

So I am guessing they will not simply be able to 'go stealth' at the click of a button.  I would pick that they need some kind of 'portal' - over time I am guessing (as they develop the skill) they can use more portals.  So initially they might need the portal in The Depths... later on they might be able to use a dark room... and later still any available shadow.

When in the Veil they will have a blur on their screen - a bit like the effect when you are drunk in LotRO with the edges of the screen heavily blurred and stretched limiting your vision.  IOW your view will be very directional so unless you look at something close and right in front of you - you may not see it.

This limits the use of use of Veil Walkers as scouts.   I am guessing they will see apparitions attacking them as ghostly figures and whisps.


Veil Stalkers on the other hand will probably see either a floating 'cloud' or 'spark' or maybe see part of the screen warp as if everything is being pulled toward a point.  They will be able to follow this point (The Veilwalker) around and direct 'magic' toward it.

something like this maybe?

The trick will be to see it.  I am guessing that if the Veilwalker stands still they become less visible in the 'real world' but the trade off is that the Veil's natural defences will begin to close in...

Thats my guess for now.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.


Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/13
Posts: 15

5/07/13 11:50:38 AM#45

People crying about stealth.. If you played Daoc you know how long it took a stealther to set up a kill?

Being a non-stealther you get to join a group and be protected by healers and Tanks with guard.As being a stealther picking targets and finding the window of opportunity is small and comes with experience.

I guarantee you Daoc players who hated stealths got way more Realm points in one night of PVP than any stealther. They are potent out of stealth openers and then rely heavy on poisions. If they miss the opener Good Game your finished.

So before you knock a stealth play one please.


Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/08
Posts: 169

5/28/13 7:53:42 AM#46

Long answer became its own short story / lore based on VeilWalkers and cloak mechanics.


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Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 7104

5/28/13 4:23:04 PM#47

Jacobs and his over powered stealth.  I really disliked stealthers in DAoC and these stealthers seem even more powerful.  Like to know how he is going to prevent packs of them from owning the game.   I was hoping that stealth would be kept to the shadows, but it obviously is not going to be.  Big negative if you ask me.

Don't know what game the above person was playing, but it was not DAoC.  A DAoC stealther did not have to setup anything.  Seen them wipe out small groups many times.  With the right skills they were extremely deadly.  


Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2071

5/28/13 4:25:38 PM#48
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Jacobs and his over powered stealth.  I really disliked stealthers in DAoC and these stealthers seem even more powerful.  Like to know how he is going to prevent packs of them from owning the game.   I was hoping that stealth would be kept to the shadows, but it obviously is not going to be.  Big negative if you ask me.

You didn't even read the concept did you?

You stay sassy!


Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 7104

5/28/13 4:30:25 PM#49
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Jacobs and his over powered stealth.  I really disliked stealthers in DAoC and these stealthers seem even more powerful.  Like to know how he is going to prevent packs of them from owning the game.   I was hoping that stealth would be kept to the shadows, but it obviously is not going to be.  Big negative if you ask me.

You didn't even read the concept did you?

Pretty vague if you ask me, my experience is, that people who play stealth characters will develop ways to pretty much eliminate any disadvantages put in place.


Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2071

5/28/13 4:37:42 PM#50
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Jacobs and his over powered stealth.  I really disliked stealthers in DAoC and these stealthers seem even more powerful.  Like to know how he is going to prevent packs of them from owning the game.   I was hoping that stealth would be kept to the shadows, but it obviously is not going to be.  Big negative if you ask me.

You didn't even read the concept did you?

Pretty vague if you ask me, my experience is, that people who play stealth characters will develop ways to pretty much eliminate any disadvantages put in place.

The concept is evolving and not even set in stone. That is the first caveat. 


The entire purpose of his "BSC" idea is to preserve the stealth mechanic while preventing the usual exploits from conventional stealth mechanics. He clearly stated that the class isn't a front load damage class and when stealthers get near each other they suffer penalties or weaken to prevent packs of them. Seems pretty clear to me what he is attempting.


What confuses me is your complaint about it not addressing the typical problems with stealth ... even though it's entire purpose is to solve these issues. Also you both put down stealth as a concept and then proceed to say you prefer the classic concept.


Actually I have no idea what you are trying say. It's similar to MJ's Archer concept. He decided to go ahead to put them in game while acknowledging all the issues Archers typically bring to an mmo. He wants to build the better Archer just like he is trying to build the better stealther while still preserving their existence in the mmo. So, again, it is extremely odd to complain about all the conventional issues with the classes when the very reason these subjects were brought up in CU was to solve those issues in their implementation.

You stay sassy!

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