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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you like "cookie cutter" builds in MMO?

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80 posts found
  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1259

4/26/13 12:16:17 PM#41
No. I do not.
  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3085

I am more than some of my parts

4/26/13 12:21:02 PM#42
Looking up builds is for a system like GW, I have never found the need in any other game.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/26/13 12:24:15 PM#43
Originally posted by k11keeper

I think most of you that are so against optimal builds don't understand one thing. When it comes down to do it these are games and there is math behind the system. When said math is figured out people use spreadsheets, parses, and other tools to figure out the most optimal setup possible. Sure you can go ahead and be a unique snowflake all you want and give all kinds of BS reasons for it but I can use hard evidence to prove my build being optimal.

 

And I can refer to my post where the game's math ultimately negates that fact.

 

Just because most games are poorly designed doesn't mean they have to be done that way.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  User Deleted
4/26/13 12:25:33 PM#44

You're never going to avoid "cookie-cutter" builds, especially in today's market with the internet being so pervasive.  If you give people options, someone is going to figure out the "best" option and others will copy it.  The best thing a developer can do is make sure that all options are at least somewhat comparable.  Something like, nothing more than a 10% difference in perfomance.

I'm more concerned with how dumbed-down game classes are becomming, so the whole concept of "cookie-cutter" builds is getting a bit outdated anyway.

  k11keeper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1034

"" "" "" ""

4/26/13 12:38:46 PM#45
Originally posted by Deivos
Originally posted by k11keeper
 

And I can refer to my post where the game's math ultimately negates that fact.

 Just because most games are poorly designed doesn't mean they have to be done that way.

But they are made that way and when people figure out the system there is optimal or not optimal. You're opposing my side of the argument by starting an entirely different argument of whether games should be designed that way or not. I agree they shouldn't be designed that way but currently they are. So currently I prefer playing optimal builds, until a game where that isn't the case is fun to me and I play it I will always play the most optimal way.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3728

RIP City of Heroes!

4/26/13 12:45:24 PM#46
Originally posted by Kurush

Here's the problem with this line of thinking.

Nobody likes "cookie cutter" builds.  People like to do their own thing.  But there are problems with that in certain games.

Most raid-oriented games have certain staple mechanics which are found at least once or twice in every raid.  Things like enrage timers turn fights into DPS checks.  It no longer becomes "deal damage while surviving."  It becomes "deal damage while surviving, and if you don't deal X damage in 5 minutes, everybody dies."  And these fights are often placed at or near the beginning of a raid.  They act as a "gear check," forcing people to complete the previous tier of raiding (and grind that gear) before moving on to the next.

And that situation creates the real problem.

In that situation, every person must be trying their hardest to deal the maximum DPS, otherwise everybody pays.  Often times, one or two low-performing players turn what should be an easy fight into a slate of repeated wipes.  This is why you can't just build however you like in a serious raiding guild in a game like that.  Why not?  Because you _can_ determine the optimal build and playstyle when you're dealing with something very specific like DPS.  You can crunch the number and figure out that X stat or Y customization option is a better choice for dealing damage over time.  And you are expected to pick that "best choice" if your role is to deal damage.  And if you don't, things like DPS meters reveal you're not carrying your weight.  Of course, healers and tanks are no exception.  Healers just chase after optimal HPS, and tanks are pursuing the highest possible mitigation and TTL.

Of course, this kind of design creates even bigger problems.  When you require extreme performance, sometimes even the best build isn't enough.  Sometimes the very best build for your class deals objectively much less DPS than the very best build for another class.  I've known raiders whose guilds actually asked them to reroll to a "more useful" class.

This kind of design is put into place to force you to grind raid instances over and over before moving onto the next one.  Why?  That keeps you playing, and playing keeps you paying.  Is this a frustrating way to design games, which creates resentment and division among the playerbase?  Yep.  Is stuff like that standard practice for raidgrind games?  Yep.

There is a simple solution to all of this: don't play those games.  Pick something where skill is more important and improvisation is rewarded, like a PvP-oriented game.  Or you can play games like Guild Wars, where the "Holy Triad" isn't present, so you're not forced to chase after "optimal" DPS or HPS or TTL.  People obviously chase after the best builds for them in GW too, but it's not a case of one build being objectively best.  That only really applies in games where builds primarily change how well you perform in a specific, pre-ordained role (like dealing damage in a game where healing and tanking are the responsibility of others).

 I am going to say no.  You see it as the real problem, I say this is just another complaint against type.   You like X but not Y there for Y is bad design.  It's not your choice of X but the choice of Y.  The devs must be lazy.

Just to say something else:  I don't believe you can create a system with a large variety of functionally and powerful skills while ensuring balance at each point of choice of skills/abilities and attributes.  Until someone can show us the details of a system he has designed with math based proof that there is balanced at each choice, it is all moot.

I  would also add that having a variety of choices is a good thing even when poorly optimal builds are made.

Just because you like a playstyle doesn't make it the correct style of everyone. 

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

4/26/13 1:04:51 PM#47
Originally posted by k11keeper

I think most of you that are so against optimal builds don't understand one thing. When it comes down to do it these are games and there is math behind the system. When said math is figured out people use spreadsheets, parses, and other tools to figure out the most optimal setup possible. Sure you can go ahead and be a unique snowflake all you want and give all kinds of BS reasons for it but I can use hard evidence to prove my build being optimal.

 

 

Only in games where you have set, defined roles to follow. Yes, I had my MM hunter in WoW optimized via spreadsheet and all that, then all I did in a raid was press the right keys in the right order and watch Recount. Yay. Huzzah. (OK, it seemed fun at the time.)  I prefer fighting (and builds) that are actually responsive to dynamically changing combat situations around me as opposed to scripted, optimized archaic defined-role based systems these days.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2323

4/26/13 1:13:11 PM#48
Originally posted by Volkon
  I prefer fighting (and builds) that are actually responsive to dynamically changing combat situations around me as opposed to scripted, optimized archaic defined-role based systems these days.

So you prefer cookie cutter builds that are optimized for dynamically changing combat?

  monstermmo

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/10
Posts: 1074

4/26/13 1:16:54 PM#49

Cookie cutter builds ruin the whole point of having multiple talent tree's.

 

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  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5505

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

4/26/13 1:48:02 PM#50
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Not necessarily forced. What if it is the best build for the situation? Would you be willing to play with a handicap just to be different?

If you use only one measure, there is always only one optimized builds, unless the devs can balance numbers in a way so that multiple builds achieve the same efficiency is very rare.

However, if you have more than one measure objective, suddenly multiple builds become viable. For example, you can optimize:

single target DPS

AoE DPS

survival

... then you have at least 3 builds optimizing differnet things.

You're thinking too small. The objective is to win an encounter (be that PvP or PvE), to make most money or XP in an hour, traverse as fast as possible etc. It doesn't matter exactly how you achieve that. Only if its the best or among the best ways to do it. For example, the most efficient PvP build may not use AOE at all.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

4/26/13 2:00:42 PM#51
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Volkon
  I prefer fighting (and builds) that are actually responsive to dynamically changing combat situations around me as opposed to scripted, optimized archaic defined-role based systems these days.

So you prefer cookie cutter builds that are optimized for dynamically changing combat?

 

OK, that was cute. You got a giggle out of me.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/26/13 3:01:55 PM#52
Originally posted by k11keeper

But they are made that way and when people figure out the system there is optimal or not optimal. You're opposing my side of the argument by starting an entirely different argument of whether games should be designed that way or not. I agree they shouldn't be designed that way but currently they are. So currently I prefer playing optimal builds, until a game where that isn't the case is fun to me and I play it I will always play the most optimal way.

Not really.

I referenced an established game with an established game mechanic.

If one will derive anything from ym commentary it's that yes there should be more like it, but you should notice that it's not just speculative suggestion.

 

If it's a game you never played I can give you that though.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1585

4/26/13 3:06:52 PM#53
Originally posted by Adamantine
Originally posted by Emrendil
Originally posted by Muke

No, I like games that give me freedom as well as access to all content there is without changing my playstyle to something I don't want.

In short: sandboxes.

Yep, we need more sandbox type of mmorpgs.

Actually you only need ONE game that suits you.

Am lucky enough that I found that one long ago. :)

Never thought I would still have fun playing it after almost 10y.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  karat76

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/06
Posts: 1011

Greatest threat to society is letting casualties of puberty reproduce.

4/26/13 3:09:26 PM#54
Hate cookie cutter builds. Blame raiding. Be  ncie to actually group with people because you like them not because they are using the right build for the raid so you can get the loot you want. Makes the other people little more than virtual whores. You don't care about them they are just there to fill a need of yours.
  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7695

Logic be damned!

4/26/13 3:10:33 PM#55

Within the scope of available combat mechanics in any MMO, you will at most have a couple dozen viable combinations of abilities and statistics that are effective enough to allow you to actually complete the content or progress or survive a fight/encounter etc.

It's just statistics.

So it doesn't matter if you have skill based or class based really.

If you are talking sub-optimal or even sub-effective builds, than yes a skill based system would allow you all kinds of terrible builds that wouldn't allow you to complete anything in the game.

But do people REALLY count those?

I mean, yeah I could max out my manufacturing skills in EvE and then go fly a Freighter into a PvP encounter armed with a handful of tech 1 blasters and have zero tank...

I could...

But is it really worth counting as an option? No.

Even back in UO you had skills that complimented each other well, you had builds, and everyone that did PvP or higher-end PvE used 'em.

That's all class versus skill based really matters in the end - kind of prevents bad players from gimping themselves too terribly. That was the entire point of the WoW talent revamp.

There is still plenty of wiggle room for theorycrafting and maximizing rotations and stats etc.

The difference between good player and bad player using exact same build (even with exact same gear) is still a night and day difference people.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/26/13 3:13:59 PM#56

You should read my first post in this too. :p

 

It's not the only solution to skill based games and balancing build options, but it's a good example of the means to which it can be or has been done (to a degree) before.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  k11keeper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1034

"" "" "" ""

4/26/13 3:27:56 PM#57
Originally posted by Deivos
 

Not really.

I referenced an established game with an established game mechanic.

If one will derive anything from ym commentary it's that yes there should be more like it, but you should notice that it's not just speculative suggestion.

 

If it's a game you never played I can give you that though.

I have not played asherons call so I am not familiar with the mechanic you wrote about, sounds nice enough though. My point was that I agree with you that it would be great if the mechanics were changed to sort of "take the math out of it" but that is an entirely different question than do you like cookie cutter builds. My point was that the majority of games today and in the past are based on algorithms and with enough testing you can unravel those algorithms and find what is optimal. With that known I prefer "cookie cutter" or what I would call optimal builds.

I guess if the question was do you prefer games with mechanics that negate the need for optimal builds we would be in agreement. The problem is these are games and are not as organic and we would like but are built from the ground up with coding and mathematical rules.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 297

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

4/26/13 3:34:30 PM#58
Pretty sure most people want unique build customization, but when the games balanced for competition or utilizes action mechanics, its harder to be flexible.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/26/13 3:41:17 PM#59

Just a different stance on the build thing then. In general if a game caters too strongly to particular builds I won't enjoy it because I know any choice of personalization over performance is at a negative cost.

 

It's that at a basic level I don't particularly endorse metagaming. I enjoy things better when people can lay down a character concept and 'make it work' than operating within systems with wide margins of efficiency.

 

So the deviating point is where when you're aware the system has optimal builds you gravitate to those builds, when I see a clear margin in performance that doesn't have to do with player skill or playstyle, then I see that as a failed game and don't choose to keep playing it.

 

For me it's a straight up fundamental disagreement with and consequential choice to not support such games and mechanics.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  theAsna

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

4/26/13 3:43:32 PM#60

 

There is a reason for "cookie cutter builds". But what people often ignore is that game mechanics will change during the lifetime of a single MMO. And there is an effort involved to find those so called "cookie cutter builds". Especially since a lot of MMOs offer equipment progression at some point. Then it's:

      build (class/skill selection) + equipment = cookie cutter build

How do you find "cookie cutter builds"? You name it. By experimenting.

 

Different aspects of a game impose different requirements on a character's build. That results in different "cookie cutter builds" for different tasks. Questing has less (external) requirements. Grouping will favour specialization and roles. Raiding even more so.

 

What is the driving force for people to play a game? A game is not like a job where you are required to have certain skills before being allowed to do the job. In general one starts playing a game and with time learns the ropes (with or without the help of others). A game is more forgiving when it comes to errors. You don't succeed in a task? Repeat that part of the game until you get better. Experiment with your in-game character. With a job it's less forgiving. If you're not up to the task you might end up getting fired.

 

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