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Hardware  » AMD Radeon HD 7990 launches. World doesn't care.

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86 posts found
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 12778

 
OP  4/25/13 9:29:08 AM#61
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Cleffy
What I can say and you will most likely agree on is that in single threaded applications, Intel will perform significantly better.  In multi-threaded applications, and those that are scaled to more than 4 threads, AMD is better.

 It would take very little for Intel to start offering more physical cores if/when the market leans more in that direction: they already have dies that have competing numbers of physical cores in the Xeon and E series, they just charge a premium for them because it's hardly a mainstream necessity at this point.

Intel already offers some 10-core processors:

http://ark.intel.com/products/53573/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E7-2850-24M-Cache-2_00-GHz-6_40-GTs-Intel-QPI

As best as I can tell, that's the cheapest of them.  Yes, higher bins actually cost more than that.  Ivy Bridge-EX is rumored to go up to 15 cores.

But yes, it's not just that it's not a mainstream necessity.  It's also that they're very expensive to produce.  10 cores and 30 MB of L3 cache on a 32 nm process node leads to an enormous die size of 513 mm^2.  Try to launch that on a then-cutting edge process node and you're asking for yield problems.  The last time AMD made a chip with a die that big was, well, probably never.

For what it's worth, AMD's take on this is, 8 processor servers have 0.1% of the market, so Intel can have it to themselves.  Westmere-EX does offer variants for 2- or 4- processor servers, but there's not much sense in shelling out for Xeon E7 chips if you've got a workload that Xeon E5 (basically the server version of Sandy Bridge-E) can handle just fine.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

4/25/13 9:30:00 AM#62

OP brings up good points about the new ATI card at this price point but we'll see where the card actually ends up after a few months it will either find it's niche price or disappear.

As to everything else being brought up here...IMO when you buy anything you do your research and buy what's the best value and bang for your buck at the price point you are at.Brand Loyalty is jsut stupidity because those companies don't return your loyalty or slavish love.

As such I've used both Nvidia and ATI cards over the years and had my share of problems with,this will be shocking to fanbois on both sides, BOTH at different times.Each companies drivers have strengths and flaws as do their driver release schedules.I for one don't want to see a single company dominating a market ever.

  Maniox

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 27

no u

4/25/13 9:35:25 AM#63

Quite sure ATI has the lead on nVidia in the GPU department outside the entire titan stuff that just seems terribly overkill and not worth all the money, but amd is down the drain compared to intel.

Feels like its always nVidia with driver errors and bugs while ATI works smoothly.

no i

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 12778

 
OP  4/25/13 9:37:07 AM#64
Originally posted by Drakynn

OP brings up good points about the new ATI card at this price point but we'll see where the card actually ends up after a few months it will either find it's niche price or disappear.

As soon as 20 nm chips are ready, the Radeon HD 7990 becomes completely pointless to buy new.  Retailers will generally want to have sold out entirely before then, so the card could well disappear sooner rather than later.  A card with two high-bin Tahiti chips is never going to be cheap to produce.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2440

4/25/13 9:38:28 AM#65

I agree that not a lot of people care. I never saw the appeal of buying the best GPUs (like GTX 690) or CPUs like that Intel's i7 CPU which was a total overkill for any sort of gaming (don't remember the name). Do people really spend so much money on a single GPU just to get the very best. You will most likely have to buy a new GPU in 2-3 years tops anyway so "futureproofing" seems a bit pointless as technology evolves so quickly.

You know what is exciting though? The new Xbox which is being unveiled on the 21 May :)

 

Originally posted by Maniox

Feels like its always nVidia with driver errors and bugs while ATI works smoothly.

From my personal experience, nVidia is much much better than ATI. I have never had any driver erros with my Nvidia cards. I have only once bought an ATI GPU and I was seriously dissappointed with all the bugs. Ever since I only buy Nvidia.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Maniox

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 27

no u

4/25/13 9:44:45 AM#66
Originally posted by fivoroth

I agree that not a lot of people care. I never saw the appeal of buying the best GPUs (like GTX 690) or CPUs like that Intel's i7 CPU which was a total overkill for any sort of gaming (don't remember the name). Do people really spend so much money on a single GPU just to get the very best. You will most likely have to buy a new GPU in 2-3 years tops anyway so "futureproofing" seems a bit pointless as technology evolves so quickly.

You know what is exciting though? The new Xbox which is being unveiled on the 21 May :)

 

Originally posted by Maniox

Feels like its always nVidia with driver errors and bugs while ATI works smoothly.

From my personal experience, nVidia is much much better than ATI. I have never had any driver erros with my Nvidia cards. I have only once bought an ATI GPU and I was seriously dissappointed with all the bugs. Ever since I only buy Nvidia.

When I were playing BF2,BC2 and WoW etc I would very often get nVidia related problems, but nVidia has been infamous for hating the Battlefield genre with passion, but a little after BC2 was released I got my hands on a 5770 and later now a 7950 which has never given me any artifacts and such.

And if you went from nVidia to ATI you probably had driver fragments remaining or something that might screw things up, but I guess it's decided by the rest of your system.

no i

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 12778

 
OP  4/25/13 10:08:00 AM#67

This thread perhaps demonstrates why the Radeon HD 7990 even exists:  it gets people talking about AMD having high end video cards, even though hardly anyone is going to buy it.  If someone else doesn't reply just before I post this, this will be post #67 about a thread for a card that hardly anyone will buy.  It's not a bad card in its own right like the GeForce GTX 590 was; just a card that makes sense for basically no one.

Meanwhile, I start this thread about a chip that AMD will sell by the millions:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/383276/AMD-announces-Gseries-embedded-SoCs-hints-at-Kabini-PS4-Xbox-720-specs.html

And then it only gets one reply from someone besides me.  Unlike the Radeon HD 7990, Kabini/Temash makes sense for a lot of people.  If you want a Windows-based tablet, this is the chip you want.  Period.  Nothing else is remotely competitive.  If you want an ultraportable laptop, this is probably the chip you want.  It's highly probable that it will be better than ULV Ivy Bridge and likely that it will be better than ULV Haswell for ultraportables.  It will certainly be massively cheaper than either of those, excluding crippled Celeron variants that are completely awful in addition to probably still being more expensive than Kabini.  If you want a cheap nettop, this is likely again the chip you want.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3178

4/25/13 10:18:27 AM#68


Originally posted by Maniox
Quite sure ATI has the lead on nVidia in the GPU department outside the entire titan stuff that just seems terribly overkill and not worth all the money, but amd is down the drain compared to intel.

At the risk of stirring up another Xfire-type debate, Steam does publish hardware survey information:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey?platform=pc

Steam is just a microcosm of the PC community, so it's not all-encompassing. People running Steam tend to be gamers, so your missing out on a vast majority of the PCs (PCs used in businesses, your grandparents who don't game, secondary systems such as netbooks that can't game well, etc).

But I figure, that in the context of hardware used for gaming, a survey done by Valve for hardware used while gaming, is probably indicative although not authoritative.

March 2013 Data
nVidia GPU: 52.26%
AMD GPU: 33.72%
Intel GPU: 13.57% (God help these poor souls)

Intel CPU: 73.5%
AMD CPU: 26.5%

Single Core CPU: 4.4%
Dual Core CPU: 48.37%
Quad Core CPU: 42.58%

Most popular:
Windows 7 64-bit - 57.01% share
8G System RAM - 22.78% share
Single Monitor Resolution: 1920x1080 - 30.22%

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3178

4/25/13 10:23:48 AM#69


Originally posted by Quizzical
Meanwhile, I start this thread about a chip that AMD will sell by the millions:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/383276/AMD-announces-Gseries-embedded-SoCs-hints-at-Kabini-PS4-Xbox-720-specs.html

And then it only gets one reply from someone besides me.  


My guess is because it's a CPU intended for ULV/Ultraportables, and this is a (mainly PC) gaming forum. It won't see a lot of use for MMOs, unless mainstream MMOs start to become ultraportable. And while the new PS4/Xbox will use a variant of this, they will almost certainly use heavily modified variants that will probably perform nothing like these particular SOCs.

Whereas the 7990, while hardly practical, is aimed right at PC gamers (and maybe the bitcoin mining niche).

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

4/26/13 3:23:52 AM#70

One of the fastest singlecards in the world only pricetag is bit high.

pro - heat-noise-consumption are ok for such card

con - pricetag is high after so late release should be lower.

 

Most tests dont include asus ares II card other wise that one would be fastests

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2372

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

4/26/13 3:26:48 AM#71
Originally posted by Quizzical

AMD today launched the Radeon HD 7990, which basically constitutes two Radeon HD 7970s on a single card.  It's a little faster than a GeForce GTX 690, but also uses a lot more power, so if you're limited by power, the latter is the better buy.  It's also more expensive than two Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition cards while being slower, so if you're not sharply limited by power, two (or three!) 7970 GHz Edition cards make more sense.  If you want the fastest performance you can get in a single slot, the older unofficial 7990s from PowerColor and Asus are clocked higher, so the new 7990 is slower than those.  If you want max performance at any price, then two or three GeForce GTX Titans is the way to go, as that has considerably faster GPUs.

So basically, AMD just launched a new card and I don't see any reason why anyone would want to get one.  But hey, it's finally here after being delayed by a year or so from the initial rumors.

I wonder what card the OP is using...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  IAmMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/08
Posts: 1310

4/26/13 3:37:39 AM#72
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by BlackLightz

One step for mankind, one more step in the endless line of GFX cards with a minor upgrade.

 

"Computer advancements double every 18 months." - Moore's Law

Gaming advancement  has fallen behind  though on the Pc gaming exclusive front.  Pc exclusives are few are fare between to actually push these card. To play games today any  decent graphics card of the last 3  to 4 years will do along with any CPU of the last 3 years. Games have been made to fit PS3 and Xbox 360 tech and that's very old in tech terms. Pc gamers will have to wait for the Pc kick start projects to make it to release to push PC hardware of today.

  Sk1ppeR

Elite Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

4/26/13 3:51:04 AM#73
Originally posted by IAmMMO
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by BlackLightz

One step for mankind, one more step in the endless line of GFX cards with a minor upgrade.

 

"Computer advancements double every 18 months." - Moore's Law

Gaming advancement  has fallen behind  though on the Pc gaming exclusive front.  Pc exclusives are few are fare between to actually push these card. To play games today any  decent graphics card of the last 3  to 4 years will do along with any CPU of the last 3 years. Games have been made to fit PS3 and Xbox 360 tech and that's very old in tech terms. Pc gamers will have to wait for the Pc kick start projects to make it to release to push PC hardware of today.

Crysis 3, nuff said.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 12778

 
OP  4/26/13 8:58:34 AM#74
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by Quizzical

AMD today launched the Radeon HD 7990, which basically constitutes two Radeon HD 7970s on a single card.  It's a little faster than a GeForce GTX 690, but also uses a lot more power, so if you're limited by power, the latter is the better buy.  It's also more expensive than two Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition cards while being slower, so if you're not sharply limited by power, two (or three!) 7970 GHz Edition cards make more sense.  If you want the fastest performance you can get in a single slot, the older unofficial 7990s from PowerColor and Asus are clocked higher, so the new 7990 is slower than those.  If you want max performance at any price, then two or three GeForce GTX Titans is the way to go, as that has considerably faster GPUs.

So basically, AMD just launched a new card and I don't see any reason why anyone would want to get one.  But hey, it's finally here after being delayed by a year or so from the initial rumors.

I wonder what card the OP is using...

Radeon HD 5850

At the time I bought it, it was the only DirectX 11 card in stock on New Egg.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 9:12:05 AM#75
Unless your using a dual monitor setup or 3d monitor

80% of games you can play on an old card.
17% of games will run at maximum levels on a 660gtx or 7870
That 3% of cutting edge games will play on high or max settings on a 670gtx or 7950

You don't need anything faster.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 9:14:16 AM#76
Pity crisis 3 is a boring cod style corridors and cutscenes duck behind cover manshoot.

1 was good
Warhead was even better
2 was a boring console style shooter
3 is even more so.
  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3178

4/26/13 9:42:08 AM#77


Originally posted by Sk1ppeR

Originally posted by IAmMMO

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

Originally posted by BlackLightz One step for mankind, one more step in the endless line of GFX cards with a minor upgrade.  
"Computer advancements double every 18 months." - Moore's Law
Gaming advancement  has fallen behind  though on the Pc gaming exclusive front.  Pc exclusives are few are fare between to actually push these card. To play games today any  decent graphics card of the last 3  to 4 years will do along with any CPU of the last 3 years. Games have been made to fit PS3 and Xbox 360 tech and that's very old in tech terms. Pc gamers will have to wait for the Pc kick start projects to make it to release to push PC hardware of today.
Crysis 3, nuff said.

While Crysis 3 will push some hardware, I would have pointed to Tomb Raider's TressFX.

Although - even though we've come up with a couple of modern examples, IAmMMO's point is still very valid and I agree with it: PC titles by and large have been stagnate. We've been stuck in the DX9 Unreal3/Crytek2/3-type engines for years now, and I do think it's largely because these run on consoles well. There are newer generations coming out soon (tm), but we probably won't see a proflic number of titles with these until we have the engines running on the next-gen consoles. If there is any doubt to this, just look at DX10/11 adoption rate, and realize that it's partially because of Windows XP's lack of support, and partially because DX9-level tools exist for the current consoles, and they are technically unable of running many DX10/11 features.

And I think another part of it is that we don't have mature development tools for the newer technologies, such as Tessellation, even on the PC. These require a good deal different skill set than most graphics designers and programmers are used to dealing with, and we won't see widespread adoption until the development tools catch up to allow these types of technology to be best applied by the people working with it. If you need a graphics designer that a) Is a good artist, and b) has a PhD in mathematics to effectively use tessellation (which is more or less the case now), then you have a very slim pool of potential applicants.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/26/13 10:04:50 AM#78
Lol you don't need a doctorate in mathematics do do the art for tesselation.

Now your guys coding the engine, might help if they have a mathematics degree, but I suspect the level of maths you get from a GOOD software engineering / comp-sci degree will be enough (e.g the ones that concentrate on technical skills rather than 1980s project management bs)
  Deivos

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Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

4/26/13 10:19:23 AM#79

More or less to use tesselation you just need to make a texture akin to a bump/heightmap referred to as displacement mapping. Ultimately they are all essentially a greyscale texture map of an object showing the high/low points of a model and the tesselation mechanics translates that onto the object.

 

The point of the original argument stands though. PC gaming has not seen major strides in a while outside of some rather tech-demo level implementations because of the console market. With the next generation of upcoming consoles we will see a bump up in the quality of games, but it will not break the habit of the PC hardware being somewhat underutilized in potential.

Even with PC only titles the tendency to adhere to lower standards is still common too because of the fact that a lot of people lag behind in hardware, playing on machines that can be five years old or more.

 

Also just wanna note. Crysis 3 might look pretty, but the engine it's built on does not hold any major advancements. Rather it was built as a more stable and multiplatform version of the previous generation of the Cryengine.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Quizzical

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OP  4/26/13 10:48:18 AM#80
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Lol you don't need a doctorate in mathematics do do the art for tesselation.

Now your guys coding the engine, might help if they have a mathematics degree, but I suspect the level of maths you get from a GOOD software engineering / comp-sci degree will be enough (e.g the ones that concentrate on technical skills rather than 1980s project management bs)

For the textures, no.  Any ordinary game artist can do that just fine.

But the geometry side of tessellation?  While you don't need a PhD, it's going to be awfully hard if you haven't at least taken a manifolds course--which is typically graduate level.  Mathematicians are likely to have the necessary background, and possibly physicists, too.  Apart from that?

Tessellation in its purest form is just procedurally generated vertex data.  But the geometrically intuitive approach is using it to do subdivisions of simplicial manifolds with boundary.  That is, you start with a model with few triangles and break them up into many more triangles.  But you have to move around the new vertices, as if you just leave them all in the convex hull of your original vertices, the final image won't look any different.

If you're not using tessellation, you just have to specify where a handful of vertices go.  You can have modeling programs that let you see the model and move things in or out with the program implicitly handling where each particular vertex goes.  If you're using tessellation, you have to be able to specify the coordinates of any arbitrary point on the surface, not just a handful of vertices.  If you want any lighting effects at all, you probably also need to specify the normal vector at any arbitrary point, and not just a handful of points.  And you need to be able to do both of these fast, with stuff that a GPU can do.

In order to do this, you start by deciding what shape you want to draw, most likely a manifold with boundary.  For shapes that are more complex than this, you likely break it into multiple pieces and draw each separately.  Basically, you can have an explicit formula, read it in from a texture, or do some combination of these two where you read in points from a texture and then have a formula to interpolate between them.  The first option means that you have to be able to think of the geometry of what you want to draw in terms of formulas, without the benefit of a GUI.  For the second, the textures from which you generate the geometry will have to be pretty high resolution, and this could add a considerable performance hit and a lot of additional video memory needed.  The third will let you use lower resolution textures, but now you get both the performance hit of additional texturing and also needing to be able to write formulas that interpolate smoothly.

So let's suppose that you know what shape you want to draw, and that it is a manifold with boundary.  Next you have to pick a triangulation of it, that is, a simplicial manifold with boundary that is homeomorphic to the shape that you want to draw.  That triangulation will be your base vertex data.

In vertex shaders, all that need you do is to determine the tessellation degree at the vertices of your base data.  This basically depends on the curvature of your model at that point, how far it is from the camera, and the frustum width of a pixel on the screen.  The third of those is some fixed constant, the second is pretty easy, and the first doesn't really require explicit computations; you can just eyeball it and call it good enough.  This isn't trivial, but it's no harder than older DirectX 9.0c-style graphics.

Tessellation control shaders will probably be pretty trivial.  The simple approach is to make any outer tessellation level the maximum of the tessellation levels that you compute at the two vertices of the edge and any inner tessellation level the maximum of the three vertices of the triangle.  Assuming you're using triangles; for quads, it's a little different, but not hard.  You need to understand some geometry to understand why you'd do it this way, but it's the sort of thing that a programmer who knows that it's what he's supposed to do could implement without understanding why.  They already do that with clip coordinates, and this would be less complicated than that.

But in tessellation evaluation shaders, you have to give both an explicit homeomorphism from your simplicial manifold with boundary to the actual manifold with boundary that you wanted to draw.  Furthermore, you have to explicitly specify the normal bundle for it, which tends to be a lot harder than the homeomorphism.  Specifying a handful of particular points isn't enough; for each triangle in your base vertex data, there are tens of thousands of possible barycentric coordinates that the hardware tessellator could kick out, and you need to be able to specify both explicit coordinates and an explicit normal vector for every single one of them.  And you need to do it smoothly so that when the tessellation degree changes, it doesn't look like your model visibly jumps.  You'll probably also have to fill in texture coordinates in tessellation evaluation shaders, but that's easy by comparison.

And if you want to animate anything rather than just having a bunch of objects of fixed shapes in your game world, then that adds a bunch of new complications.  But let's ignore that for now.

So, how much mathematics is involved here?  When I finished a BS in mathematics, I didn't know what a manifold (whether with or without boundary), triangulation, homeomorphism, simplicial manifold (or any other sort of simplicial complex), or normal bundle (or any other sort of vector bundle) were.  There's no way that I could have done tessellation at that point, even with today's tools.  Think your average game programmer would have a stronger math background than someone who got a BS in mathematics while taking considerably more math courses than necessary for the BS?  A handful of relatively advanced undergraduates may well take a graduate-level course in manifolds as an undergraduate, but there aren't a ton of such people and they're likely headed to grad school anyway.

And I'm skeptical that tools will ever be able to give anyone without that background access to the full power of what tessellation can do.  You could make a game engine that knows how to draw a sphere and lets artists put spheres wherever they want in the game and tessellates them accordingly.  Or you could make more general shapes such as an ellipsoid rather than a sphere.  You could have dozens of shapes available.  But as soon as an artist wants to draw something that isn't on the list of what the game engine already knows how to do, either he's out of luck, he can draw it but not use tessellation, or he needs all of the mathematics above.

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